8 months of marriage, and we are scheduled for counselling

Hey hofts,

It's fine to be all over the place - there's no right & no wrong way to deal with this, no rules. I spent my first 5 months here going out of my mind trying to work where things had gone wrong.

Did I expect too much? Why can't we talk? Is it my fault?

I was angry, dislocated, shocked by this strange new place. I argued with everyone from the man at Safeway, to the telemarketers who rang constantly. I raged over the telecomms system, the medical system, the politics, everything. It was not what I expected. And neither was marriage. I kept discovering new things I didn't like, but I sucked it up thinking that it was just me. That my expectations were too high/unrealistic. I started counselling 5 months after marriage, I'm still going. It's still helping.

I remembered something else which is important to mention -- It's to do with history of you.

That is ... your husb, his friends & family know almost nothing about you except what they've learned from the time you and your husb have been together. They have no history of who you are. I've known all my friends for years. We have open, wonderful frienships b/c we know who each other is. My relationship with my folks is very solid for this same reason (and yes, they're still married). I don't have to explain anything & our love for each other is unconditional.

It is hard work educating these new people in your life as to who you are. Explaining yourself, telling them what you stand for, what you believe in, etc. Starting again can be draining & frustrating. So if sometimes you just want to hide - do it and don't give yourself a hard time over not wanting to hang out with them straight away. History of a person comes with time. Don't let anyone pressure you into having to get along with everyone immediately. You've gone thru a massive adjustment & a horrible time which you need the time & space to deal with.

Finally, I try to answer direct questions with direct answers so please feel free to ask me anything you like & if I can offer up any helpful suggestions, I will

jazzie

Remember, a counse;or is merely a facilitator. They (mostly) only help you uncover the answers you already know inside. Dont be afraid to acknowledge the truth in what youre sharing.

Youve given us here some information that, if you go back and reread, maybe youll have a personal light bulb go off. Im concerened that you, as an individual must learn to have a life that doesnt necessarily include your husband. Why not followsome of your own dreams?

OMG, jazzie-- it's like you are talking abt me. i realise the issues surrounding the relocation (i shd say dislocation!) of a vibrant person who had his/her stuff together, to a completely new environment, which wouldn't be an issue to navigate through, if you were introduced to it as a single person. as a spouse, it makes it much more difficult to integrate, in my opinion -- primarily because of some of the points you bring up -- a whole new extended social network of people that know him, but not you. i have extended my feelings of not being sort of included in the wedding, not feeling included by the country -- although the weirdest thing is that before marriage i was my own person, and had my own life and my own standing. i know i am being unclear because i am in a rush...but i will be more lucid when i log back on, next.

farmerman-- i HAD my own life. priorities got shifted - and i do not know how they came to be this way. i cannot follow my own career because it will necessarily take me out of the geographical area in which he works. however, i am striving to get back into my research, theatre and dance. it helps -- but the moment he comes back into town, and i know that we are still not talking abt our marriage, i get physically ill...

more later.

LOL yes you do!

dear jazzie -- went through your email in detail. i seem to have gotten paralysed in recent months, and so your pointers are extremely valuable. i will speak with the counsellor and run these points by her, before i embark on them. to answer your question, co-counselling means having 2 of them, so both husband and wife feel gender-represented, i imagine.
you also asked about what his reaction was, to couples counselling. well, he's out of town, and i mentioned to him that i had made an apptment for monday, after his work day -- and, that if he was interested, we could try this out. if he didn't want to make it, it was up to him. he mumbled that it was a good idea. but i will have to wait until monday rolls along, to see if he is truly interested/invested in working on the marriage. he never vetoes an idea. but it seems to me, like he doesn't actively engage either. and this was not always the case..

when we had first met, i remember how he gave me a sense of comfort. a very deep, strong sense of comfort. i remember thinking - ah, finally, here is a man i will not turn into a baby that i will have to take care of. i was not in any rush to get married. it was not on the agenda, and i loved my single life. however, i did fall in love with this super matured, funny, active, engaging, interesting man - and marriage was what i was willing to do. and, it was a big deal -- because, like you, i knew it would mean stepping into *his* life, as opposed to us stepping into each other's. we got married over the weekend, and when people asked where we would be going for our honeymoon, i said, what honeymoon? he's going to be back at work on Monday. and, he was-- on tuesday, since monday was a public holiday and his family was still in town. and the kicker in all of this is, he owns his own business.
being motivated and passionate myself, i completely understand being sucked into work. but when i ask him the simple question -- your business, or our marriage -- he says, don't make me choose. that's as loud and clear as an answer as any.
it's heartbreaking. i feel like he was somebody else when we were courting and has morphed into someone else now. and, i wonder, if just like the deals he makes at work, i was just a business that needed to be won -- and, he did all he had to do to win and close out the deal. now, that i am here -- there is no more reason to keep this alive.
on top of all of this, i got pregnant in the summer..and when i showed him the result, he said "wow! that's awesome" and went right back to writing a contract. once, again -- i am not going to fight to get him to love me. i just want to know what's up, so i can leave without feeling like i did not give it a shot.

i feel your pain acutely, because i am going through it myself. hang in there, hopefully we will both be able to break through this.

like i mentioned before, i have gotten back to prepping my CV to send them out to jobs all over the country and even abroad. i am brushing up on my skills. i have joined a dance studio, which i attend 4x a week ( a throw back from my previous single life), i have also gotten involved with local theatres. all of this keeps me busy - and heart broken as i am, they help to bring in some sort of verve back into my life. at the very least, i remain distracted.
socially, it's been tough to break through my inability to connect at a deeper level with people here...but i am reconsidering my approach and tempering my intolerance (hah! that's a harsh word!). but getting involved with activities that are more suited to my liking, i am also meeting people with similar bents of mind.
finally, i am reaching out to my friends from back home -- who are all over the world and trying to figure out ways to keep those relationships alive.

i really hope that we can wipe the slate clean and start afresh in our marriage. but i am past anger..and only, sick now.

will be keeping in touch.

what's the latest at your end? what have you decided?

Hey hofts,

Great email, thanx for your concise reply. I'm glad my email was of use A few thougths on what you've written kind of point by point, above:

- I have been paralysed for 9 out of 10 months. Its only since I got my green card 3 wks ago that I've started to wake up & realise that my GC & a social sec # gives me some of my independence back. A slice of my former life. Do you have these 2 things? Like you, I had a fab & solid single life which was organised, fun & vibrant. Going from single to married is big enough on its own without everything else thrown in!

- I so hope your husb turns up at the appt. The co-counselling sounds ideal & I might even suggest that to my own husb. Someoe in his corner so to speak, so he doesn't feel like I am ganging up on him. Thanx for the tip! IF (big if, but must be considered) he doesnt turn up, you should go anyway. You'll find if you try to cancel on the day, they will probably charge you anyway (check this) - so if that's the case, just do it alone if he bails. Hopefully, he will be there.

- The man/boy ... yep. I hear you. Someone who does not need mothering ... You know, perhaps he is too passive for you? I to thought I'd found someone who could stand up to me, work with me, fight the world together. But when push comes to shove and it gets emotionally hard, he withdraws. Clams up. I have to pursue him for anwers. I'm always the one who has to bring things up & he is content to potter along as tho things are fine - when they clearly are not.

- If you moved back home, would he come with you? He'd be stepping into YOUR life then. Is that something you've discussed?

- Your husb would appear to hide in & behind his business. It is his security. When he says "dont make me choose" do you ask him to clarify his answer? (or do you assume the worst? ie that he'll choose the biz) I ask my husb to clarify everything he says so that our wires don't get crossed. It's v important. You'll probably find your husb cant give you an answer b/c making the choice is too hard for him. Also, his biz is something he knows. It's his safety. If he's not big on sharing emotionally, then he will retreat to his contracts when big emotional things come up (like the pregnancy). He might seem disinterested, but I think he is scared half to death so he runs to the only place he knows. His work. Dont be too hard on him for this. Coming out of one's shell must be done in small steps and he needs to feel safe with you in order to do that, ok? Also, if he can't answer you straight away, give him time & ask him to get back to you later if it's easier for him to do that. Don't rush him. Some men (like my husb) are slow to respond b/c they don't have the words ready & want to get it just right. But don't let "later" drag on forever. A few days is fine. Also - if he doesn't want to communicate in words, ask him to write to you. To communicate his thoughts/issues to you via email. Whichever is more comfy for him to communicate.

- good news on prepping your CV, etc. My work similarly takes me out of this city so god knows where I'll end up, but contract work is my aim. That is, be away for a few months then here for a few. Is that what you're thinking? Or are you aiming for fulltime? Can you do some quick courses to add to your CV in the meantime? I've just started sending my CV out to jobbies, agencies etc so our timing is kind of similar.

- ah yes. That social thing. It's not YOUR inability necessarily to connect with others on a deeper level - it's a 2 way street. Perhaps they don't know how to take you? My overt directness blew people away when I first got here. I didn't care to stop & chat in the supermarket about BS. But they did. Taking a chill pill and winding down a peg or 2 was hard but it helped me to get thru the simple things like grocery shopping or banking without wanting to punch someone. Tempering intolerance is a good thing b/c Americans respond really badly to it - it makes them feel awkward. I keep reminding myself that I am a guest here for the time being, so I try to be nice even if it's the last thing on my mind. Afterall, they don't know what's going thru my head. Altho, some days, it really is too hard trying to forge those connections so I buy Vanity Fair & wallow in the bath for hours on end.

- reaching out to your friends back home is *wonderful*. Don't feel obliged to give them the ins & outs of your sitch unless you want to but do make time to contact them. Do you keep a blog? It's a great idea b/c you can update it every few days & give your friends & fam the URL so they can keep coming to check up on you. It saves you having to send them all individual emails. But if you're like me, you prefer the personal touch. I can spend hours at a time emailing my buddies or talking on the phone to them & I love it. Too much of it tho makes me REALLY homesick so I try to keep it in check as it can be quite distracting - but that's like anything done to excess eh.

- the latest on my end is that I asked my husb if he would reconsider marriage counselling (he's already said no - but I asked him again). He's thinking about it. He is still scared of it I think. Terrified. I've decided to tread water until I know what his decision is. I've also decided not to wait forever for that decision but to give him a week or 2 to think about it & get back to me. He has to overcome his fear if he wants to invest in our future. I never ever EVER picked him to be so afraid of something like counselling. I mean, he's like the snag version of the Marlboro Man - the original action man with a soft heart. I did not pick him to be someone who withdraws when the going got tough. I'm a fighter. But I can't do this on my own. He has to want to do it too. Which is why ... if he says no AGAIN, I might suggest co-counselling. If he says no for the 3rd time. Well. I don't know what I'll do.

Again, I so hope your husb goes to counselling with you on Mon. Best of luck with it. Please let me know how you go & try to visit here beforehand if you can. Updates are good Above all, be kind to yourself and take care of your insides and outsides. If you want to email me in the meantime, feel free to do so. My e is: [email protected]

Take it easy

jazzie

I haven't read all this since it feels to me now not my business.... but is here re potential help for the next person going through this - and of course for you two.


I've not much to add except that you two with the similar situations both seem wonderfullly alive and sane.

Hey osso - many thanx for your comments LOL I like to think of myself as relatively normal, sane and last time I checked - very much alive. I think a certain amount of the stuff hofts and I are going thru is cultural. Even with our menfolk. American men are as different as the environment in which they live. Traditions are different, attitudes are different, the way they deal with emotional stuff is certainly different to what I'm used to.

Also, I get the feeling hofts is from a creative background - as am I. This makes it a challenge to be a square peg in a round hole in a strange new world with men whom we don't "get" - nor men who dont seem to get us either...

jazzie

feel free to jump in osso--- while jazzie and i may commiserate with each other, a fresh outside perspective is always welcome.

jazzie -- your thoughts on hiding behind work, may be well-founded. he grew up with his back against the wall, fighting the world as it were -- all this sharing is very new for him. for me, i grew up very nurtured and so, am the first person to jump in and trust someone entirely. very gung-ho about the whole "together" experience.
as for pottering around as though all is right, in the case of your man -- gosh, i have sometimes perversely let this status quo continue hoping that he will finally break down and explode...but no. my sinking suspicion is that we can go indefinitely in pain, without him bringing it up....so finally, i have to break down.
like your husband, mine also carefully chooses his words before he speaks...as a result, the response may sometimes take a week in coming. in which time, i have already packed my bags mentally, and am on a flight out of the country.

so, in short -- i think we may have married the same man!
i wonder what it would have been like, if the 2 had married each other! we could write a book about it...

jokes apart, we are both as distressed because we are both emotionally invested. had we not been in love with these guys, we would have figured a way to say bye nicely. hope they wake up before it is too late.

i was thinking about your husband's reluctance to go to therapy. i don't know what others had to say about this - but i am wondering if he somehow considers therapy as the very last resort. i know i used to feel that way (i guess i still do), viz if you are going to therapy you are dealing with something that is broken and can never be fixed.
on the other hand, it may be that he is infact afraid that a female counsellor will take your side, gang up on him and you guys will win the verbal battle. my husband did say that his last experience with couples counselling was a disaster because the female therapist took a dislike to him and made it her mission in life to get his girl friend to break up with him. hee hee...in most cases, however, women take his side instinctively - so, i think he will be fine on Monday.

let me know what your husband says about co-counselling. the place that i looked at charges as per a sliding scale, based on income. so expense shd not be an issue either. california is pretty good abt this kinda thing.

husband comes back home tomorrow night. but i have told him that i will not be able to pick him up from the airport, because i am going out for drinks with friends, at that time. i was being an ass..and he said, cool. i will see you when you get home....didn't even bother him!!!!! he'll probably come home, watch tv, work on his computer, make business calls -- and not care that it has been 5 days since i last saw him - while i feel like a complete heel!

let me know how things are going with you. i am rooting for us!

Hey hofts,

Thanx for your thoughts - they make so much sense we could easily be writing about each others lives. There are fundamental differences, obviously, but yeh - the men in our lives sound remarkably similar on the communication front.

Can I ask, how old is your husband? Did he grow up with siblings in a competitive environment?? Hope you don't think I'm being too nosey.

To answer points, above:

- I must be the only person on the planet who goes shopping with her passport, birth certificate & marriage licence in her bag. I've gotten so sick of the inertia & pain associated with hovering in the status quo that sometimes I've packed a "runaway" bag & kept it in the car ... just in case the status quo drops. Inertia kills me. I like movement - either forward or backward. Sideways. Anywhere - as long as it's not a festering standing still kind of thing. In theory, my husb claims he can't live like that either - but he is doing it in practice.

- I booked a male counsellor for our session, someone who I did a lot of research on before I even called him. I chose a guy so that my husb wouldn't feel alienated by a female counsellor. Also, he was a direct straight shooter. Not someone who would pussy foot around the truth. I also didn't want my husb to feel that a female counsellor would take my side b/c I can fight my own battles. I don't need people in my corner. I wanted him to feel he had someone in HIS corner so that we could reach compromises with a little more ease. (how self sacrificing of me! lol) But no. Even that was not enough to get him to go. I will give my husb another week or so to reconsider going, & if he says no (again) then I'll try the co-counsellor approach ...

- Hmm. I think I know how this feels. Walking in circles around each other. Not talking. Him watching telly or a DVD. You finding other things to amuse yourself. Try to realise tho that (as his last counselling experience ended so badly) that he's probably nervous as hell, without saying so. He might feel pushed into the counselling already - which means you're already on the back foot. Try not to ignore him too much or be too hard on him. As hard as it might be, you *must* thank him for agreeing to go. Acknowledge that he said he'll do it. Otherwise, he'll feel like he's talking into a black hole - agreeing to things with no feedback as to whether he's doing the right thing or not. Make sense?

My counsellor told me months ago that behaviour which gets rewarded gets repeated. This is v v v important to note. And it's true, it works most of the time. Rewarded = saying thankyou, telling him how much (what good thing he has done) means to you, how glad you are that he did it for whatever reason, etc. So. Don't be too bonkers by ignoring him all weekend. I realise it's hard if he's sinking himself into his work tho and ignoring YOU. Write him a note. Give him a card saying thank you re the counselling. Find a way to say thank you that he will understand how much it means to you. And back it up with saying that you want your marriage to work. Men need hope.

We all do

- Finally, 'rooting'. LOL There is a drain company who drive around in little vans with "The Happy Rooter" emblazoned on the side. god it makes me laff.

I'm off to lunch then going out to play this arvo (instead of freaking out over study - I now have "free time" OMG), but I'll be back this evening & will post more then.

hugs to you,
jazzie

Hey hofts,

Before I dash out, investigate this link:

http://www.amazon.com/Embracing-Ourselves-Voice-Dialogue-Manual/dp/1882591062

and

http://www.delos-inc.com/

My friend suggested these people as they helped him thru his marriage. Saved it actually.

A tip, if you want to buy books from Amazon (see first link) - buy them from the 'used' section. They're always in immaculate condition & about 10% of the RRP. I'm going to order the book, the DVD, the CD, anything I can get my hands on to educate myself about why my situation is the way it is. And to look at how to move forward.

jazzster

40 this year. 5 sibs, i am pretty sure it was competitive. father was borderline abusive, and constantly reminded him of how disappointed he was with his son. things changed when he proved his father wrong by becoming very accomplished -- but old wounds like that take forever to heal...



yep-- i have developed this pain in my shoulder (psychosomatic) due to what i feel is being strapped in with no place to move...i hear ya, sista. i need to get that runaway bag -- just for peace of mind.



why is he averse to counselling? history with it? bad experience? perception? or does he not think that the issues at hand warrant third party involvement? suspicous of therapists?

i am kind of suspicous. like big pharma, i imagine that a lot of therapists just make you "well" enough to keep you coming back for more. also, i wonder if they may inadvertantly do damage while trying to solve our problems in an hour and half installments. although, i have to say -- i liked these guys and sensed a sincerity when i talked to them over the phone...so i am hopeful. and, at the very least -- we will have given it a shot.

back to your husband, surely he must have a good reason for this deep reluctance -- even if it is not articulated.



makes a lot of sense. it didn't strike me to thank him (duh!), and i will definitely make sure i let him know that i appreciate his agreeing to see someone with me. thank you, counsellor.





heheh-- what an awesome name!
well, have fun, take care. and come back with a little more of the old, familiar ground regained! rah rah!
i have to find my marriage license so i can pay the freindly folks at the DMV a visit in order to officially change my name (i hyphenated my surname as a lark, and it became official when the green-card bestowing person at the Imm office stamped it down for eternity!)

talk later. or when i decide to come back in here screaming...

Hey hofts,

Thanx for your feedback ... you know, your thoughts help me as much as mine hopefully help you ... but of course, anyone else who wants to throw their 2 cents in, please feel free! It's an open forum after all

Hmmm. Thoughts above:

- Woooh. Alarm bells here. Your husb will take years if he ever is going to get over that kind of putdown - which I imagine went on for years from his father. This is prolly why you feel that to him, his biz is more important than the marraige - b/c hey, anyone can get married right? But in a dog eat dog world, not everyone can run a successful business. Your husb might have to learn how to juggle his 2 responsibilities and priorities them. Maybe he needs to put marriage at No. 1, the biz at No. 2. But can he do this? Would his past history and voices in his own head let him? A very ponderous point and only one that he can answer honestly. He needs to work out what he wants. (don't we all?)

- my god. Snap. I have a stress point in my chest where the cartilage was torn away years ago. I internalise my stress, angst, anxiety and so when Im freaked out mentally/emotionally, it aches like crazy. I'd suggest that you beat the crap out of a bunch of pillows when no one is around. Put one over your head and scream and scream into it in a way that no one else can hear. You've got to try to get some of that anger out of you or it will make you sicker. I bet you're hardly eating too. Tension makes tummy muscles tight & for me, resistant to food. Are you sleeping much?

- YOU: why is he averse to counselling?
ME: I don't know. He cannot explain his reluctance except to say we can't afford it. This is flat out rubbish. The counsellor (like yours) goes on a sliding scale. He is avoiding it.

- YOU: does he have a history with it?
ME: Again, don't know. He did it once before with an ex, but that was more about parenting than their own relationship. I don't know how it ended up. He never told me.

- YOU: a bad experience? perception? or does he not think that the issues at hand warrant third party involvement? suspicous of therapists?
ME: I think he thinks the counsellor will tell him he has in fact lied to me. That he is in the wrong. My husb thinks he is beyond reproach so I'm going to "hang him out to dry" re porn. I think he is suspicious, frightened that counselling will make the situation worse. I also think he reckons that once I get back to work, it will get back to normal and I will be happy - therefore (in his mind) NEGATING the idea of counselling. I think he thinks my feelings on it are temporary. They are not. I have no trust left in him and doubt everything he tells me. I've turned into a damned basket case since being here and have done some totally out of character things as a reaction against his behaviour.

- YOU: back to your husband, surely he must have a good reason for this deep reluctance -- even if it is not articulated.
ME: Well, I wish he could articulate it. I'm starting to lose my patience, my mind and my sanity. I've been stuck in this position for too long...just waiting. Waiting for him to decide "will he or won't he" do the counselling thing. Sigh. It wears me down. It makes me not want to be nice to him. His reluctance makes me not want to spend time with him b/c I've told him what I want - and he won't give it to me for reasons that he cannot adequately explain. Not affording it is utterly untrue. He has frittered away the equivalent of 2 visits in the last 10 days on gifts, dinner & gratuities alone. This makes me furious. Argh.

See you here again soon

jazzie

Just read the last few pages and have one comment, but I forgot it. Have to go back and hunt it down.

Ah, that was easy to trace... Just make sure you have a copy of passport, CDL- dmv, marriage license in some other place, and, hey, while you're at it, credit card info too.

hello jayzter -- i am here..was thinking of getting some work done..but hi again, from one basket case to another --hehe..

ok, so where exactly is everybody, when their unwarranted good advice is required?!

so glad for your insights. you are super sharp, you know that? even if you think you ought to be in a padded cell ) as for me, i really shd be in one.

i would guess that husband cannot let go of the biz. that's the one solid thing that he is solely responsible for. if he makes the leap, and gives it up for me -- what if i walk away on a whim someday, cheating him the way his dad did. yep, it's a tough demon to slay, and i shd be patient.

but, at the same time, the guy is not exactly wasting away in grief and confusion either. i hate hate hate the breezy way he makes conversation, as though we were at a frgin tea party eating crumpets, when i am going out of my mind, insane!!

trust! ugh. ugh ugh ugh! another big BIG problem. to think, i can live on trust and honesty alone...don't need anything else. prob the same for most people, so why is it that sometimes people squander away their trustworthiness so easily.

at my end, the issue of trust is a whole diff can of ugly ugly worms. talk abt doing things/behaving in ways that are completely strange and uncharacteristic in response to the problems in the relationship: i morph into this raging lunatic that i know i am not, never have been!
i have become sickeningly suspicous! most of my precious long term relationships in the past have been open relationships - strongly based on trust and respect. however, with him - i can spend all day driving myself into a hole, crazed with suspicion --wondering where he is, what he is doing, thinking i am being a sleuth. it's ugly. i cannot even dream of bringing this up with the therapist. i feel too ashamed.

i wanted to ask you abt the porn issue. have you been able to determine if he, in fact, had gotten it for the 2 of you and neglected to dispose of it? what is the deal, in that quarter?

you talked abt behaving like roomates. ok, so that's where we are at. but sleeping in different rooms would be too much drama, so we share the same bed and make sure that there is absolutely no contact. which means, very little sleep, and tears most nights.

he was gone this past week, and it was actually good. i stayed the course and stayed connected to myself. tonight he returns, and i was supposed to be out with friends-- but i felt bad, and decided to stay in an be here when he got home. ya think he will notice? ah, NO. but i cannot, in good faith, go out and be happy (like he is, with such little effort), when i feel like S*IT inside...

man, i wish i could scream!!!!!

silly me...didn't see your responses. truthfully, i am annoyed with myself for becoming such a whack job -- so you are not alone in the whine-bashing.
as for kids from well-adjusted homes being better equipped for life -- you know, i used to believe that, but now i wonder if i am not more neurotic than the average joe, because i was came in to (emotinal) hardship so late in the day...? i don;t know. had i grown up watching my parents coping with a troubled marriage, maybe i would have been less wide-eyed and naiive....don't know. but appreciate your point. it is well taken.

bella, i am not that troubled by him becoming someone else -- an angel. i think what is killing me, is that the sad fact is that i, we, our marriage, is not priority number 1. it is not the thing that makes him want to rush home, to plan, to wake up every morning to.
it used to be. it was when we courted. which is why i was blown away with a man who could match my passion and general zest for life (and our relationship). but he is not that person anymore. he is someone who lives, breathes, eats his biz. day in and day out, and if i died in a ditch somewhere, i doubt he would set out looking for my body until a few days had passed. that's pretty sad for me, esp given that he is my only anchor and reason for being so far away from home.