CdK, I am sorry for delay in responding your posting, but this stems from the difference in time zones between California and Israel. By all means, I really enjoy discussing matters with you, even when we have very few common points on the issue, since you never resort to
ad hominem even on the level of "subliminal suggestion".
CdK wrote:The poll I refer to that showed well over 50% supporting transfer was at the height of the suicide bombings.
I think that if 10 bombings happen in the next 3 months Israeli support for a Palestinian state will wane and Israeli support for transfer will grow.
Completely agree. This is a normal emotional response of civilians being under fire. This proves that Palestinians should urgently decrease level of violence in order to gain popular support in Israel for their issues. By the way, not too much time has elapsed since the peak of the bombings mentioned, but the public opinion has already seriously changed; Israelis are being moved not by revenge ideas, but exclusively by security considerations. When the security threat decreases and real prospects of peaceful solutions are being provided by Mr. Bush, Israelis prefer pragmatic approach to this based on tribal honor idea. Israel is dominated by the people of European descent (there are Sepharadic Jews in the government, but majority of them share European mentality as a result of assimilation in the Israeli society), and therefore pragmatism is not alien to us. When the Arab media write about Mr. Sharon, they attribute to him features of their own mentality (unfortunately, some of the foreign media, especially in Europe, "buy" these statements uncritically); but Mr. Sharon is much more flexible than it is generally thought, and now success of peace process completely depends on Palestinians: if they continue terror attacks, popular support of establishment of their independent state in Israel will return to levels of March 2002, and Mr. Sharon will be necessitated to change his position for sake of mere political survival (I want to remind that he is a democratic leader, and not Saddam Hussein, hence he is dependent on the public opinion of his compatriots).
CdK wrote:steissd wrote:
I would not say that direct participance of Israeli Arabs in terror is high (they tend rather to support efforts of Palestinians than to put at risk their own life and well-being), but the demographic threat is very sufficient. Just imagine 50+ million Arabs in the USA (20 percent of population) to realize the scale of the problem.
I think the danger you refer to is more in potential than reality. A lot of support that goes to terrorist activities was not given specifically for that purpose.
Contributions to Arab charities often wind up in the hands of extremists.
The problem is not so much imaginatory. Birth rate among the Arabs is almost twice as among Jews, and laws of mathematics work against Israel.
Arafat's metaphor
Quote:"The womb of the Arab woman," Arafat says smugly, promising ultimate victory over the Jews, "is my strongest weapon."
is far dangerously close to the reality. I must note that the Israeli Arabs tend to define themselves as Palestinians...
The same source ("Village Voice", quite a liberal edition far from being a clone of "Savage Nation") writes
Quote:The updated CIA 2002 factbooks on Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip suggest Arafat is not making an idle boast.
There are 6 million Israelis, the CIA says, 4.8 million of them Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. In the territories, there are 3.4 million Palestinians, 2.2 million on the West Bank and 1.2 million in Gaza.
Do the math. A total of 4.8 million Jews and 4.6 million Arabs live on this tiny sliver of embattled land.
Oh, you say, there are more Jews than Arabs. Well, honey, not for long.
For one thing, Israelis are old, and getting older. Only 27 percent of Israelis are below the age of 15, while 63 percent are between 15 and 64. Nearly 10 percent are 65 and older.
An astonishing 45 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are below the age of 15, and 52 percent are between 15 and 64. A tiny 3.6 percent is over 65.
Israel's population growth rate is a mere 1.48 percent. The Palestinians enjoy a growth rate of about 3.5 percent.
But here's the clincher. The fertility rate is 2.54 children for a woman in Israel, 4.77 kids for our sisters in the West Bank, and 6.29 babies for our beleaguered cousins in the Gaza Strip.
Those figures make the hair stand up on the heads of many Israeli politicians and keep researchers busy calculating future population statistics.
Demographic experts groan over the population growth rates in both Israel and the territories, which they say are among the highest in the world. They estimate that the population will double here every 17 years
The above article deals with territories, but due to large percentage of the Arab citizens in Israel, this problem will not disappear when the Palestinian State emerges. The catastrophic consequences may occur much later, but they have real probability to occur if nothing is done. Proactivity that is not politically correct and even contradicts norms of the international law is the only possibility for Israeli nation to survive.
CdK wrote:steissd wrote:
Establishment of the Palestinian state completely isolated from Israel and transfer of all the Israeli Arabs (that define themselves as Palestinians, by the way) could solve this problem. They could move to houses that the settlers will leave; if this is not enough, I am ready to pay an additional temporary tax to finance building for them housing on the territory of Palestine.
I support that idea but only if you can lure (not force) them out of Isreal.
Me too, but this is impossible. High living standards of Israel, existence of social security service absent in majority of the Arab states, independence of courts and participation of defense attorneys in trials, abolitionism in death penalty issues (the only person ever sentenced to death in Israel was a Nazi war criminal Eichmann) makes life in Israel very attractive for its Arab citizens; this does not make them loyal to Israel, however. Majority of them should be deprived of citizenship and deported to the Palestinian state (they should be permitted to take their property, though, including money deposed in the Israeli banks, being converted to $ or ). Only Druzes (Arabs belonging to some esoteric "para-Muslim" denomination), Christians, several Bedouin tribes and citizens of the Abu-Ghosh village that always were loyal to Israel should be permitted to stay. This will save lots of bloodshed in future for the both sides of the conflict. I do not share the principle
Pereat mundus, sed fiat justitia, pragmatic approach would be much more favorable than the legally dogmatic one.
About economic aid to the future Palestinian state. IMO, it must be in shape of humanitarian donations only on the initial period. Later it should be substituted by small business support funds: this will help to create jobs in Palestine and permit them to build their wealth alone.
If after establishment of the Palestinian state relationships of Israel and Arab countries come to normalization, there will be no need in defense-related aid to Israel (if I remember well, it counts $1.8 billion annually), by the way...
