Is abortion really wrong?

Re: Is abortion really wrong?

Scott777ab wrote:

material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

Yea but this isnt as clear cut as that. We have a medical power we didnt have before. I believe in stem cell research as a way to to save the existing for those that might. The main reason im prochoice is i dont like the idea of our goverment with control of our procration or lack there of. It scares me that a goverment could have that kind of power.

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Re: Is abortion really wrong?

Scott777ab wrote:

material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

Scott, you got anything useful to add to this discussion?

Just redneck mob violence stupidity?

I bet you support the death penalty for mass murderers too?

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Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

real life wrote:
blacksmithn wrote:
Presumably, life begins when the fetus (as opposed to the embryo)becomes viable, that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb. At least, that's the way it appears to me.

When exactly is 'viability'?

Do you not know how to read? Blacksmithn described what viability meant in the very same paragraph you quoted.

However, if you really want a more official definition here it is:

Viability (noun)

The quality or state of being viable. Specifically: --

(a) (Law) The capacity of living after birth.

(b) The capacity of living, or being distributed, over wide geographical limits; as, the viability of a species.

Yes, I understood very well WHAT it is.

My question to blacksmithn was: WHEN is viability?

If blacksmithn believes that a human life begins at 'viability', then I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that blacksmithn would concede that human life should be protected from that point on and abortion should not be allowed.

If that is the case, we must know EXACTLY WHEN that is.

WHEN is the unborn 'viable' and thus entitled to protection?

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Re: Is abortion really wrong?

Eorl wrote:

Scott777ab wrote:
material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

I bet you support the death penalty for mass murderers too?

You got that wrong.
I support the death penalty for any one who commits murder.

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Re: Is abortion really wrong?

EpiNirvana wrote:

Scott777ab wrote:
material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

Yea but this isnt as clear cut as that.

Sure it is. Pysically aborting a baby the way they do it now is out right murder. What RIGHT does any one Mother or Father or Doctor to DENY that CHILD life?
NONE is the answer.
NO ONE has the right to take an innocents life away from it.
And a baby can't stand up for itself so I do.
And if you don't agree with me then you are an accesary to murder yourself and should be put to death.

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Re: Is abortion really wrong?

Scott777ab wrote:

material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

So all soldiers in wars who kill others should be charged with murder?
Or is it just the fact its an innocent baby thats killed that is wrong?
Is it wrong if a grown up is murdered?

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Re: Is abortion really wrong?

Scott777ab wrote:

EpiNirvana wrote:
Scott777ab wrote:
material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

Yea but this isnt as clear cut as that.

Sure it is. Pysically aborting a baby the way they do it now is out right murder. What RIGHT does any one Mother or Father or Doctor to DENY that CHILD life?
NONE is the answer.
NO ONE has the right to take an innocents life away from it.
And a baby can't stand up for itself so I do.
And if you don't agree with me then you are an accesary to murder yourself and should be put to death.

If killing a fetus is murder then the greatest killer of them all is the God found in the Bible, if one believes the Bible. How many Christians praise a God that wants to rip fetuses out of a woman's womb but condemns an abortionist and the woman who wants to have an abortion?

Quote:

And if you don't agree with me then you are an accesary to murder yourself and should be put to death.

You have a very sick mind. You should seek counseling. You have put yourself in a position where you think your God. Like the God found in the Bible you believe that death is the only solution to those that disagree with you.

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Didnt someone in the Bible want to kill all baby boys?!!

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material girl wrote:

Didnt someone in the Bible want to kill all baby boys?!!

In the Bible God killed all kinds of kids and babies. Once he saved the little virgin girls for his soldiers and had the rest of the people, including babies, pregnant women and kids killed.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_wilderness/massacre_of_the_midianites/nm31_01p25_16p31_02.html

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xingu wrote:

material girl wrote:
Didnt someone in the Bible want to kill all baby boys?!!

In the Bible God killed all kinds of kids and babies. Once he saved the little virgin girls for his soldiers and had the rest of the people, including babies, pregnant women and kids killed.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_wilderness/massacre_of_the_midianites/nm31_01p25_16p31_02.html

Ecky thump!!They dont teach us that part at school!!

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The question of viability is really a MEDICAL one, more so than a legal or legislative one, it seems to me.

That's medical, as in between a woman and her doctor. Not as in between you, me, or anybody else. The choice for a woman is agonizing enough without getting politicians or Religious Yahoo Know-Nothings involved.

Not claiming to be a doctor, nor some hyped up pseudo-religious zealot either, I'm content to leave that decision where it can best be determined.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Late term abortion strikes me as essentially morally indistinguishable from the murder of a baby soon after its birth.

At what point is it distinguishable?

Irrelevant. Killing a fetus shortly before birth or a baby shortly after birth are strike me as morally similar.

No it's not irrelevant. You said that late term abortions are morally indistinguishable from murdering a baby soon after its birth. If the distinction is based upon the gestational development of the fetus, however, there should be a point (earlier than "late term") where abortion of a fetus and murder of a baby are distinguishable. What point is that? Or are you saying that all abortions are the equivalent of the murder of a baby?

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Re: Is abortion really wrong?

Scott777ab wrote:

material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

If one believes that abortion is murder, then the woman having the abortion should be charged with being an accessory or a co-conspirator. She might even be charged with felony murder (in much the same way that the driver of a getaway car can be charged with felony murder if his accomplices commit murder). Under the laws of most states, however, I'm not sure she could be charged with murder itself. I would add, however, that the only logically consistent position for those who believe that abortions is the equivalent of murder is to hold (as Scott777ab holds) that the abortionist and the woman should be charged for their roles in the crime.

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Joe will certainly correct me if i misstate this, but i believe that if i cause someone's death through misadventure without intent on my part, i am liable, perhaps for manslaughter, and at least a reasonable target for a wrongful death law suit. If that is so, i would ask the adamant "abortion is murder" crowd if a woman who miscarries is liable. Is she potentially culpable for wrongful death? What if one could assert that her miscarriage resulted from willful but thoughtless behavior, such as drug or alcohol abuse? What if she spontaneously aborted (miscarried the foetus) as a result of vigorous physical exercise?

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Setanta wrote:

Joe will certainly correct me if i misstate this, but i believe that if i cause someone's death through misadventure without intent on my part, i am liable, perhaps for manslaughter, and at least a reasonable target for a wrongful death law suit. If that is so, i would ask the adamant "abortion is murder" crowd if a woman who miscarries is liable. Is she potentially culpable for wrongful death? What if one could assert that her miscarriage resulted from willful but thoughtless behavior, such as drug or alcohol abuse? What if she spontaneously aborted (miscarried the foetus) as a result of vigorous physical exercise?

Well, if there's no intent at all, then the woman can't be charged with a crime, although reckless indifference can be a substitute for intent in certain cases. For instance, if a pregnant woman takes some drug, knowing that it may act as an abortifacient, without regard to the consequences, then, if the drug causes the woman to abort her fetus, I think the doctrinaire "abortion is murder" crowd should want the woman to be charged with manslaughter.

But then, the doctrinaire "abortion isn't murder" crowd might want her to be charged with manslaughter too. Illinois, for instance, has the following statute:

[u]Involuntary Manslaughter and Reckless Homicide of an Unborn Child.[/u] (a) A person who unintentionally kills an unborn child without lawful justification commits involuntary manslaughter of an unborn child if his acts whether lawful or unlawful which cause the death are such as are likely to cause death or great bodily harm to some individual, and he performs them recklessly, except in cases in which the cause of death consists of the driving of a motor vehicle, in which case the person commits reckless homicide of an unborn child.
The law, it should be added, does not apply to abortions. It is clear, however, that a woman can be charged with involuntary manslaughter or reckless homicide if she acts in such a way that will likely bring about the death of her fetus, and, as a consequence, her fetus actually dies.

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blacksmithn wrote:

The question of viability is really a MEDICAL one, more so than a legal or legislative one, it seems to me.

That's medical, as in between a woman and her doctor. Not as in between you, me, or anybody else. The choice for a woman is agonizing enough without getting politicians or Religious Yahoo Know-Nothings involved.

Not claiming to be a doctor, nor some hyped up pseudo-religious zealot either, I'm content to leave that decision where it can best be determined.

OK, so if the gestational period from conception to birth is 38 weeks, are you comfortable with abortion at 37 weeks and 6 days if a woman can find a 'medical professional' to rid her of the inconvenience, even though you seem to admit that a human life has begun by then?

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Oh, please. Couldn't you find a more extreme and unreasonable example?

At 37 weeks, 6 days it would seem to me, albeit I'm no doctor, that the fetus is viable by almost any definition. Conversely, at 6 days the embryo is almost certainly NOT viable. So what?

That being said and given the current parameters of the law, I'm content to leave the choice up to the mother and the doctor. It's not my decision as it's not my body. Nor is it yours.

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Setanta wrote:

Joe will certainly correct me if i misstate this, but i believe that if i cause someone's death through misadventure without intent on my part, i am liable, perhaps for manslaughter, and at least a reasonable target for a wrongful death law suit. If that is so, i would ask the adamant "abortion is murder" crowd if a woman who miscarries is liable.

No

Setanta wrote:

Is she potentially culpable for wrongful death?

No

Setanta wrote:

What if one could assert that her miscarriage resulted from willful but thoughtless behavior, such as drug or alcohol abuse?

Yes

Setanta wrote:

What if she spontaneously aborted (miscarried the foetus) as a result of vigorous physical exercise?

No

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Re: Is abortion really wrong?

joefromchicago wrote:

Scott777ab wrote:
material girl wrote:

So are the abortion doctors murderers or the woman having the abortion?

Both and they both should be charged with murder.

If one believes that abortion is murder, then the woman having the abortion should be charged with being an accessory or a co-conspirator. She might even be charged with felony murder (in much the same way that the driver of a getaway car can be charged with felony murder if his accomplices commit murder). Under the laws of most states, however, I'm not sure she could be charged with murder itself. I would add, however, that the only logically consistent position for those who believe that abortions is the equivalent of murder is to hold (as Scott777ab holds) that the abortionist and the woman should be charged for their roles in the crime.

I agree with that.

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blacksmithn wrote:

Oh, please. Couldn't you find a more extreme and unreasonable example?

At 37 weeks, 6 days it would seem to me, albeit I'm no doctor, that the fetus is viable by almost any definition. Conversely, at 6 days the embryo is almost certainly NOT viable. So what?

That being said and given the current parameters of the law, I'm content to leave the choice up to the mother and the doctor. It's not my decision as it's not my body. Nor is it yours.

Oh, Please. Couldn't you just argue around a perfectly good point.

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Is abortion really wrong?

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