Reply
Sat 15 Jul, 2006 10:40 pm
While I think I made my views known, I will say one more thing...
While abortion should be a last option, and not one to be used often (and preferably, not at all), I think it is very easy to sit on the sidelines and say "How horrible of her!" and be moralistic about it, when it's not your problem.
What if, by some stroke of luck, you happened to get a girl pregnant tomorrow? What goes through your mind when you realize you're probably going to have to drop out of college, get a low paying job (at 18 or 19, what are your options?), struggle to make ends meet, and basically give up a promising future, all to put food on the table and diapers on your child that you didn't really want in the first place?
It's easy to say what you would do if you were in that boat, but it's a hell of a lot harder to do it when you're there. Especially when you have lots of goals, ambition, and drive, like I do and I believe you do. It's so easy to judge when it's not your future on the line.
With my one "mistake", I didn't even know the girl was pregnant until after she had an abortion, so I don't have much weighing on my conscience. At the time, I was very anti-abortion, and was very sad to hear what she had done. But now...boy, am I glad. It might sound harsh, but I can't imagine not having a college degree, scraping to make ends meet, living in PA (where the girl was), and most importantly, having to focus all of my energies on someone else, instead of my goals and dreams.
You may say, "well, I always have safe sex"...ok, great if you do. But I'll tell you what, everyone makes mistakes. Condoms break, or alcohol impairs judgement, or you think you're going to pull out in time, or she tells you she's on the pill (and she's not). These things happen all the time to all sorts of people, good and bad, smart and dumb.
Would you be willing to give up your entire future because of one random mistake? You may say yes, but you wont ever really know until you're in that situation. I hope you wont ever be, for your sake.
And I am all for adoption, by all means. But far be it for me to dictate what a woman has to do with her body. It's a bit much to ask a woman to pop a child (that she doesn't even want) out and then give it up. Can you imagine shitting a whole orange?? Doesn't sound very fun to me.
And for the record, I'm not pro-abortion. I believe adamantly that 3rd trimester abortions should be completely illegal.
Jeremiah--
Welcome to A2K.
Quote:And for the record, I'm not pro-abortion. I believe adamantly that 3rd trimester abortions should be completely illegal.
In other words, it is a woman's choice for 4 1/2 months--and then the choice belongs to society as expressed in the law of the land?
Jeremiah wrote-
Quote:What if, by some stroke of luck, you happened to get a girl pregnant tomorrow? What goes through your mind when you realize you're probably going to have to drop out of college, get a low paying job (at 18 or 19, what are your options?), struggle to make ends meet, and basically give up a promising future, all to put food on the table and diapers on your child that you didn't really want in the first place?
How silly and selfish do you wish to parade yourself being.
Couldn't you think of the downsides before you got her pregnant rather than just assuming you can pop off and leave her with the result. Isn't it your duty to have those things go "through your mind" before that and save her the trauma.
Or don't you give a damn about her?
Quote:And for the record, I'm not pro-abortion. I believe adamantly that 3rd trimester abortions should be completely illegal.
I think if you researched you'd find that the vast, vast majority of third trimester abortions are because the mother's health is in danger. Not many women would carry a baby for that long and then just change their minds for the hell of it-- so do you really think a woman shouldn't be able to choose to save her own life if it's threatened by carrying a baby to term?
I almost forgot-- welcome to A2K! Good thoughtful post, too, BTW.
Abortion is a sometimes necessary evil. The pregnant woman is the rightful decision maker in the early stages. In later stages, she and a doctor together should make the call. My two cents.
spendius wrote:Jeremiah wrote-
Quote:What if, by some stroke of luck, you happened to get a girl pregnant tomorrow? What goes through your mind when you realize you're probably going to have to drop out of college, get a low paying job (at 18 or 19, what are your options?), struggle to make ends meet, and basically give up a promising future, all to put food on the table and diapers on your child that you didn't really want in the first place?
How silly and selfish do you wish to parade yourself being.
Couldn't you think of the downsides before you got her pregnant rather than just assuming you can pop off and leave her with the result. Isn't it your duty to have those things go "through your mind" before that and save her the trauma.
Or don't you give a damn about her?
Ohhhh please.
Basically EVERYONE over the age of 14 has done something stupid in the name of lust. If you haven't had your fair share of times where the little head cancels out the big head and does all the thinking, you are a liar.
Save your moral indignation for another site. Everyone here knows better than to think you're any sort of moral crusader, so give it a rest.
Not at all.Not stupid. Counterproductive maybe but not stupid.
And I know a lot of other men who think the same. In fact, if you will take the trouble, you will find it is traditional.
I have never given a lady a moment's worry on the matter. I'm not a rutting pig.
I have no moral indignation. However did you get such an idea?
I was simply trying to shame you into thinking a bit more sensibly and then you'll be more attractive to ladies. With your attitude you'll be dead in the water by 25.
Suppose you expressed to a lady, before the act, the ideas you expressed up above. What do you think she would think? And if you didn't tell her your views prior to the act, which means more to her than you can imagine, you would be being dishonest.
Hey- you could have it printed on your shirts. SCREW AT YOUR OWN RISK. That would at least be honest. And allow a lady to draw the appropriate conclusions.
Quote:Save your moral indignation for another site. Everyone here knows better than to think you're any sort of moral crusader, so give it a rest.
And knock off giving out orders if you don't mind and trying to do magical incantations with words like "everyone here" which you seem to think are going to work simply because you said them.
spendius wrote:Not at all.Not stupid. Counterproductive maybe but not stupid.
And I know a lot of other men who think the same. In fact, if you will take the trouble, you will find it is traditional.
I have never given a lady a moment's worry on the matter. I'm not a rutting pig.
I have no moral indignation. However did you get such an idea?
I was simply trying to shame you into thinking a bit more sensibly and then you'll be more attractive to ladies. With your attitude you'll be dead in the water by 25.
Suppose you expressed to a lady, before the act, the ideas you expressed up above. What do you think she would think? And if you didn't tell her your views prior to the act, which means more to her than you can imagine, you would be being dishonest.
Hey- you could have it printed on your shirts. SCREW AT YOUR OWN RISK. That would at least be honest. And allow a lady to draw the appropriate conclusions.
Quote:Save your moral indignation for another site. Everyone here knows better than to think you're any sort of moral crusader, so give it a rest.
And knock off giving out orders if you don't mind and trying to do magical incantations with words like "everyone here" which you seem to think are going to work simply because you said them.
I've learned my lessons. I have much more field experience than you, I can pretty much guarantee. What are you, 18?
Re: Is abortion really wrong?
Jeremiah wrote:While I think I made my views known, I will say one more thing...
While abortion should be a last option, and not one to be used often (and preferably, not at all), I think it is very easy to sit on the sidelines and say "How horrible of her!" and be moralistic about it, when it's not your problem.
What if, by some stroke of luck, you happened to get a girl pregnant tomorrow? What goes through your mind when you realize you're probably going to have to drop out of college, get a low paying job (at 18 or 19, what are your options?), struggle to make ends meet, and basically give up a promising future, all to put food on the table and diapers on your child that you didn't really want in the first place?
It's easy to say what you would do if you were in that boat, but it's a hell of a lot harder to do it when you're there. Especially when you have lots of goals, ambition, and drive, like I do and I believe you do. It's so easy to judge when it's not your future on the line.
With my one "mistake", I didn't even know the girl was pregnant until after she had an abortion, so I don't have much weighing on my conscience. At the time, I was very anti-abortion, and was very sad to hear what she had done. But now...boy, am I glad. It might sound harsh, but I can't imagine not having a college degree, scraping to make ends meet, living in PA (where the girl was), and most importantly, having to focus all of my energies on someone else, instead of my goals and dreams.
You may say, "well, I always have safe sex"...ok, great if you do. But I'll tell you what, everyone makes mistakes. Condoms break, or alcohol impairs judgement, or you think you're going to pull out in time, or she tells you she's on the pill (and she's not). These things happen all the time to all sorts of people, good and bad, smart and dumb.
Would you be willing to give up your entire future because of one random mistake? You may say yes, but you wont ever really know until you're in that situation. I hope you wont ever be, for your sake.
And I am all for adoption, by all means. But far be it for me to dictate what a woman has to do with her body. It's a bit much to ask a woman to pop a child (that she doesn't even want) out and then give it up. Can you imagine shitting a whole orange?? Doesn't sound very fun to me.
And for the record, I'm not pro-abortion. I believe adamantly that 3rd trimester abortions should be completely illegal.
Jeremiah,
Are your career and your income potential (not to mention your self actualization in obtaining your degree!) moral imperatives that are greater than preserving the life of another?
You think it's a 'bit much' to suggest a woman put an unwanted child up for adoption......... so the alternative is killing the child?? Is that the type of logic they taught you as you were getting that coveted degree?
You believe 3rd trimester abortions should be illegal. Good. But why?
What about an abortion an hour earlier than the beginning of the 3rd trimester? How about 2 hours earlier? A day earlier? Two days? A week? And so on.........
At what point exactly does it become wrong to abort, and on what basis did you arrive at that point in time as being the place where you draw the line?
Yes, thoughtful post Jeremiah. No easy answers, but I hope you find the right ones for yourself.
Welcome to a2K!
One thought that always haunts me in abortion discussions is:
Who here is putting as much passion and energy into the question
"Is it right for me to conceive or bear a child?"
There are so many children born to circumstances that are horrid.
Seems a weird twist of thought to me that some hold a belief that
anyone has the right to conceive a child, but not every one has a right to decide what is correct for that child .
It's all a question of where one draws that line in the imaginary sand of who gets power over what, me thinks.
Jeremiah,
Welcome
Why isn't it OK to kill a 5 year old if they are making your life impossible?
It all comes down to the same old question again and again.
When does the foetus become a person, at what developmental point does society decide to grant them a right to exist that supercedes the rights of the parents, and how does society make that decision about where to draw the line? Who should be consulted....preists? doctors? scientists? Vegetable pickers? Only female vegetable pickers who have children? The "Majority"?.......
(real life will now reply with various reasons why he thinks the line IS at conception with absolutley zero room for doubt....while arguing that "life" deserves "the benefit of the doubt")
Eorl wrote:Jeremiah,
Welcome
Why isn't it OK to kill a 5 year old if they are making your life impossible?
It all comes down to the same old question again and again.
When does the foetus become a person, at what developmental point does society decide to grant them a right to exist that supercedes the rights of the parents, and how does society make that decision about where to draw the line? Who should be consulted....preists? doctors? scientists? Vegetable pickers? Only female vegetable pickers who have children? The "Majority"?.......
(real life will now reply with various reasons why he thinks the line IS at conception with absolutley zero room for doubt....while arguing that "life" deserves "the benefit of the doubt")
You misstate my position, Eorl. I am disappointed, especially since we have discussed it several times.
Yes I believe life begins at conception. I think there are excelllent medical reasons that show this is so.
But I could be wrong.
One need not believe life begins at conception to be pro-life however.
The great majority of people, when asked 'at what point does human life begin?' will answer --- 'I don't know.' 'I'm not really sure.' 'I don't think anyone knows for sure.' etc
The most logical position for these people is also the pro-life position.
If one is not sure whether one is endangering a human life --- is not the most reasonable and prudent course to avoid that which MIGHT unnecessarily put an innocent human life at risk?
Unless you can show beyond reasonable doubt that a human life is NOT endangered by abortion, then exterminating the unborn is a reckless, irresponsible act.
Yes, since there is great doubt as to when life begins and therefore if a human life is at stake in the abortion room, then the benefit of the doubt should be to cautiously preserve life rather than to plunge blindly forward to destroy.
If you were going to raze a building and someone said, 'I think there may be someone in there....', would you order the wrecking ball to go ahead anyway?
I don't think I have misstated your position at all rl. When I say "he THINKS the line is at conception" how is that not accurate? Never before have you said you weren't sure about whether a foetus is a human being, in fact you insist on calling it a "child" for extra rhetorical impact.
Having said that, it was rude of me to presume to do so, and I apologize for that.
As for the rest of what you had to say, I pretty much agree on a logical basis....as you know. Except that such decisions should be made individual mothers, not by you.....at least until you are able to prove to the world that a complete human with full human rights exists from day one.
"Is abortion really wrong?"
From the fetus' point of view, yes!
From anyone else's point of view there are those who say yes, those who say no and those who say sometimes.
Although i am personally against abortion, i believe that it is a decision that should correctly be left to the woman involved. If her decision is incorrect then she, alone, may be held accountable in the subsequent analyzation period of the present incarnation. The only abortions that i think should be against the law are "partial-birth" abortions.
i am a firm believer in reincarnation. i therefore, according to my own beliefs, believe that the spiritual entity that existed in the fetus was well aware of the probabilities of an early termination to its physical being yet still chose to abide for the short period of time -- because of its own goals/reasons.
Cool, a novel new reason for me to think religious beliefs are dangerous and stupid.
Ethmer, do you think it is the woman's choice to drown a two year old? How are the two situations different to you?
"Ethmer, do you think it is the woman's choice to drown a two year old? How are the two situations different to you?"
Yes, it is her choice but she then has to suffer the consequences that society establishes for murder. The difference in the two situations is that one is a separate individual self-sustaining intelligent life whereas the other is not.
Ethmer wrote:
"Ethmer, do you think it is the woman's choice to drown a two year old? How are the two situations different to you?"
Yes, it is her choice but she then has to suffer the consequences that society establishes for murder. The difference in the two situations is that one is a separate individual self-sustaining intelligent life whereas the other is not.
Interesting criteria that you are seeking to establish before granting the right of life to a human being:
"Separate individual" -- please define what makes one a separate individual. The unborn has a unique DNA pattern that does not match his/her mother's. His/her body is not part of the mother's, although they are connected. Is he/she a separate individual? If not, why not? How about Siamese twins? They are connected physically -- are they separate individuals?
"Self-sustaining" -- please define what makes one self sustaining. Is a newborn self sustaining? He will die without constant care. In what sense is he self sustaining?
"Intelligent" -- please define what makes one intelligent enough to qualify. Do persons in a coma count as intelligent? What about newborns? How about developmentally disabled? Are these intelligent enough to earn the right to life in your view?
Yes, exactly. Now we get down to the usual problem.
spendius wrote:Not at all.Not stupid. Counterproductive maybe but not stupid.
And I know a lot of other men who think the same. In fact, if you will take the trouble, you will find it is traditional.
I have never given a lady a moment's worry on the matter. I'm not a rutting pig.
I have no moral indignation. However did you get such an idea?
I was simply trying to shame you into thinking a bit more sensibly and then you'll be more attractive to ladies. With your attitude you'll be dead in the water by 25.
So...Spendi...you are going to give instructions about how to be attractive to ladies.
This ought to be fun.
And perhaps you will interweave some thoughts on how to do brain surgery...or program rockets to pass through one of the spaces between the rings of Saturn.
Jeremiah
You sound like a kid dealing with an adult's problem. Are you doing that intentionally...or are you actually just a kid dealing with an adult's problem?
And don't listen to anything
Real Life has to say. He has not said anything of any value since coming to A2K...and I doubt seriously he will start doing so in this thread.
Oh yeah...welcome to A2K.
Wasn't this all covered before ? How about a talk on euthanasia for a change....
Stumble It!
Tweet This
Bookmark on Delicious
Share on Facebook
Share on MySpace