Is abortion really wrong?

It's not "pro-abortion" it's "pro-choice." That would be like saying a "pro-life" person is "anti-choice."

NOBODY is Pro-abortion. The people rallying for abortion rights aren't actively encouraging people to abort their children. Absurd. To asign some sort of image as to what that would look like:

Imagine protesters in a maternity ward shouting at pregnant mothers to abort their children. how it's the only way. That would be Pro-abortion, and that would be totally stupid.

Phrases like pro-abortion are just BS propaganda.

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Diest TKO wrote:

NOBODY is Pro-abortion. The people rallying for abortion rights aren't actively encouraging people to abort their children. Absurd. To asign some sort of image as to what that would look like:

Imagine protesters in a maternity ward shouting at pregnant mothers to abort their children. how it's the only way. That would be Pro-abortion, and that would be totally stupid.

Yeah, that would be totally stupid.

Quote:

Phrases like pro-abortion are just BS propaganda.

That's funny. I was using those terms to avoid what I thought was the BS propaganda. But, I think I see your point. So maybe I'll settle on "anti-abortion" and "pro-abortion rights". How's that?

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Er... Maybe I was being to sarcastic before, and my point was lost. The point is that people who want to keep abortion legal want to keep it legal because...

They want the right to choose

not because...

They think abortion is great and an option for everyone.

Terms like Pro-abortion suggest that they want to remove people's choice as well, which is entirely wrong.

What's wrong with "pro-choice?"

I mean it's a big word game sure, but the words convey different ideals and philosphies. "Pro-Life" suggests that people should be "for all human life." They're typically Christian (But not exclusively.) My big problem is that so many "pro-life" people are also pro-war and often pro-death sentance for criminals. The two idealogies cannot coexist.

So as far as which title is more fitting (or consistant wiht philosophy), It seems hypocritical for someone to call themselves pro-life.

[/soapbox]

However, I do think "anti-abortion" is more accurate and finite term for what the movement actually should be.

in summary (IMO)

Pro-Life - Too large of a term
Pro-Abortion - Wildly inacurte and offensive, propaganda
Anti-Choice - Also inacurate and offensive, propaganda
Pro-Choice - accurate
Anti-abortion - accurate

But ofcourse, nobody wants to be anti-something.

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Diest TKO wrote:

Er... Maybe I was being to sarcastic before, and my point was lost. The point is that people who want to keep abortion legal want to keep it legal because...

They want the right to choose

...the right to choose abortions, I know.

Quote:

not because...

They think abortion is great and an option for everyone.

Terms like Pro-abortion suggest that they want to remove people's choice as well, which is entirely wrong.

What's wrong with "pro-choice?"

I mean it's a big word game sure, but the words convey different ideals and philosphies. "Pro-Life" suggests that people should be "for all human life."

Or just all life... I don't like that term either. It's a big word game, like you said.

Quote:

They're typically Christian (But not exclusively.) My big problem is that so many "pro-life" people are also pro-war and often pro-death sentance for criminals. The two idealogies cannot coexist.

I totally agree.

Quote:

So as far as which title is more fitting (or consistant wiht philosophy), It seems hypocritical for someone to call themselves pro-life.

[/soapbox]

However, I do think "anti-abortion" is more accurate and finite term for what the movement actually should be.

I do too. Tha's what I said, remember? So how's about "pro-abortion rights"? We shouldn't play word games. It's dishonest. It shows a lack of respect, right from the start. We should try to be constructive, otherwise, what's the point? You know that "pro-choice" is too large of a term in exactly the same way that "pro-life" is. What do you say to that?

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Quote:

You know that "pro-choice" is too large of a term in exactly the same way that "pro-life" is. What do you say to that?

Totally disagree.
In order to be consistently pro-life, you must be against any taking of human life. Very few that would ride the pro-choice bandwagon fit this bill.
But in order to be pro-choice, one must simply be libertarian in nature.

The first is hypocritical and unsavory, the second fits.

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Dok--

This is a real nit-picky tangent, isn't it? Whatever... I'm all for clarification of terms.
I guess I am "pro-life", in a very broad sense. But I don't describe myself as "pro-life" in reference to abortion because it's dorky and antagonistic. I'm okay with "anti-abortion".
"Pro-choice" is too wide. Does that mean any kind of choice? What choice?

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The term "pro-abortion" is used purely to demonise the pro-choice position. It's rhetoric, pure and simple. We could come up with new terms but why would you?

Each "side" has chosen it's own name that fit's it's own position. The use of another name by the opposition is therefore deliberate rhetoric.

I've used the term "pro-slavery" to refer to those who feel they have the right to demand the use of a womans body for nine months once she declares she is pregnant....just to demonstrate the absurdity. See how it works?

I've repeatedly said I'm personally against the idea of abortion, I'd rather it didn't happen, I would try to talk my own wife out of it if I had to.....but ultimately it's her choice. What is "pro-abortion" about that?

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Eorl--
If you're asking me, the term "pro-abortion" is a misrepresentation. I can understand that. And, no, I don't expect either group to change their name, or whatever. I don't even know how this discussion got started. My whole thing, I guess, is that I just don't like those descriptions... those "names". Like I said, I think they are antagonistic.
I don't think we should start disrespecting each other before we even get to the table.

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Here's where it started this time around ....

real life wrote:

Pro-abortion voters in America are often one-issue voters

...and I expect it will start again in the future in much the same way.

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hi Diest TKO,

If you can't call me 'pro-life' since I favor the death penalty for convicted murderers and the like, then call me 'pro-innocent life' if you wish.

If you have that much difficulty distinguishing between a convicted criminal and an innocent baby, then by all means modify the term if it helps you. (I understand the distinction, so don't do it on my account.)

Or call me 'anti-abortion'. I am.

But, as I had already mentioned on the previous page, I am perfectly comfortable with the term 'anti-choice' as well.

Not all choices are valid and we should not pretend that they are.

All of those who think they are 'pro-choice', let me ask you:

If someone was to exercise their 'choice' to kill you, would you be 'pro-choice'?

The unborn loses his/her life NOT by his/her OWN CHOICE, but by ANOTHER'S choice.

The term 'pro-choice' is a euphemism used by pro-abortion folks who don't have the guts to stand up and say what it is they are supporting.

That should tell you something.

If you don't have the stomach to watch the dismembered body of a baby that died by being cut to pieces with a scalpel in a D&C abortion and then stand up and say 'I am pro-abortion', what is the problem?

What is it that you are hiding from?

If you favor the availability of elective abortion, you are pro-abortion.

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Diest TKO wrote:

NOBODY is Pro-abortion.

Um, those who HAVE abortions are certainly pro abortion.

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Hey!

What the hell's wrong with "anti-abortion" and "pro-abortion rights"?

Everybody AGREE.

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real life wrote:

If you can't call me 'pro-life' since I favor the death penalty for convicted murderers and the like, then call me 'pro-innocent life' if you wish.

If you favor the availability of elective abortion, you are pro-abortion.

If you favor the availability of killing criminals, you are pro-killing.

Echi, I agree with you, but don't see the need to change to your labels from the current ones.

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echi wrote:

Hey!

What the hell's wrong with "anti-abortion" and "pro-abortion rights"?

Everybody AGREE.

touche from earlier. I have to conceed-- Pro-Choice is also too broad.

As for a distinction real life, how is this for one. If a mother becomes pregnant and the baby is tubal (speell?), the pregnancy will most likely fail and kill the mother. The Catholic church will aprove a mother to have an abortion.

Before I go a step further, I don't think anyone would contest that the mother knowing that she could prevent serious injury or fatality.

...

moving on. So what does this mean? It could easily infer that even the catholic church values an "established" life more than that of an "unestablished" life.

As for not all descisions being valid, it is easy for those not faced with these descisions to be so critical. I'm not saying that you would or should concider abortion, but having the choice is something that only one facing the desicision can truely grasp.

I'm not a supporter of abortion, but I am against making it illegal. Abortion is a product of our culture. It is not the place of politics to move this issue. And if it were ever to become to frution I hope it would be in the interest of taking abortion out of "clinics" and into hospitals where patients could recieve a greater level of care. If you don't like abortion give it parameters, but to irraticate it on some cultural ignorance is dodging the issue.

To those who are not having abortions, it doesn't affect them, and it is none of their bussiness.

The problem is that the Anti-Abortion platform is to comprimise; It's all or nothing. How about this:

1) Limit the types of abortions that can be performed. No black ages BS.
2) Limit the time frame in which a abortion can be performed. For example if you limited abortions to the first trimester, it would prevent 300,000 abortions. Would that make you feel better?
3) Support legislation to childcare programs. Especially programs that home foster children etc.
4) Support legislation to raise minimum wage.

Abortion is NOT a stand alone issue. It is dynamic and is interwoven into our culture. You couldn't get rid of abortion and not feel its effect elsewhere.

If you are pro-life, fine. Good for YOU. But it is your CHOICE to keep a child as much as it is for someone to CHOOSE otherwise. If you outlaw abortion it opens the floodgates on standardizing family values. What would be next? Adoption is the best friend of most pro-lifers. I don't think it's to far a of a stretch of the imagination that in a culture where abortion was illegal that the next legal issue would become people abandoning their children etc.

Lastly, two questions.

"If you are shouting outside of a clinic calling some terified girl a whore trying to get her to turn around, and maybe out of fear she does just that is it a victory?"

"If you support all human life, do you continue to offer support her or does your focus just shift to the next woman walking towards the clinic?"

I guessit's just not your problem anymore.

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Quote:

Quoted from real life:
Do you see any difference between a person who takes upon himself the risk of smoking and the unborn who has not made any choice to endanger or forfeit his/her life?

All i'm sayin is that, if you are infact pro-life, arnt thier bigger fish to fry? Surely more ppl die from smoking and/or alcohol then from being aborted. Besides, if someone really didnt want a child is it better to abort then for police to find infants in dumpsters?

If an unborn child can be shown not to have smoked, should abortion of that unborn child be illegal?

Smoking babies? In the womb? That would be a cool album cover, you might be onto something, hmm...

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Do you see any difference between a person who takes upon himself the risk of driving and the unborn who has not made any choice to endanger or forfeit his/her life?

I, and everyone else with children take this risk. It's a risk but if you crash and burn while taking your kid to the docter and your kid dies, its a tragic accident, "**** happens" basicly.

If an unborn child can be shown not to have driven a motor vehicle, should abortion of that unborn child be illegal?

No, because we know the chances of the infant growing up and driving a motor vehicle is very high.

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Since you continue to link poverty to abortion for some reason unknown, would you agree that if the residents of a state or county or city can be shown to be sufficiently well fed that abortion should therefore be illegal in that state or county or city?

No, because thier is the possiblity of the child growing up, eat too much, and starve the rest of the school kids of required nourishment.

If an unborn child can be shown not to have consumed more than his/her fair share of food, should abortion of that unborn child be illegal?

Yeah, I heard the womb hosts some awsome buffet's.

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If it can be shown that the unborn has not participated in war nor approved of it, should abortion of that unborn child be illegal?

Abort, just in case, you dont want another Hitler do YOU???

If you havent noticed, I lost interest in this mindless discussion a while ago, I tryed to take it seriously, but it just aint happening. Crying or Very sad

I believe in pro-choice, thats where I stand. And I'm not gonna rant over a never-ending debate any longer. Twisted Evil

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Just a thought along the same lines but different.

Should fully grown adults have the choice in taking their own life if they wanted?
In some places its illegal.

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Yes.

I believe someone has that right. Some philosphy applies. I think someone should be able to end their own life without breaking the law and be able to do it in a dignified way. I'd naturally prefer that they recieve some sort of counselling first so that they had their affairs in order and for instance weren't just leaving a huge debt on their family for instance or perhaps they were just in a treatable emotional state of vulnerability.

Yes.

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Deist TKO-

I know that, legal or not, women who want them will have abortions. I would not support any kind of harsh penalty for illegal abortion. Each case should be dealt with individually, addressing whatever factors happen to exist. The point should be to reduce the number of abortions as much as possible while maintaining full respect for those involved. If both sides can just agree on that, it would be a good start.

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Diest TKO wrote:

To those who are not having abortions, it doesn't affect them, and it is none of their bussiness.

To those who are not torturing children in a basement, it doesn't affect them, and it is none of their bussiness.

The problem always comes back to the same thing....what defines a human being?.... and at what point are human rights granted?

Who's advice do you take to determine the answer...the doctors, the scientists, the priests or the politicians?

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Eorl wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:

To those who are not having abortions, it doesn't affect them, and it is none of their bussiness.

To those who are not torturing children in a basement, it doesn't affect them, and it is none of their bussiness.

The problem always comes back to the same thing....what defines a human being?.... and at what point are human rights granted?

Who's advice do you take to determine the answer...the doctors, the scientists, the priests or the politicians?

I somewhat understand the hesitation in trying to reason with "pro-lifers". They're all taking and no giving. When anyone on the "pro-choice" side says that abortions should be reduced to as few as possible, someone on the other side starts in with--" if it's not wrong, why reduce it?". I wish they would focus on the common interests.

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Is abortion really wrong?

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