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The Worst President in History?

 
 
MarionT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:45 pm
Sure, believe the Bushie propaganda about the "Red Hot Chili Peppers"---as if that would ever cause anyone to betray a trust.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 06:35 am
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay. First, so they can keep on doing it and second, to protect the CIA operatives from being nailed by some international tribunal.

(It's kind of the same argument going on regarding the eavesdropping on American citizens. Yeah, says the Bush Administration, we're breaking the FISA law but we don't care and we want Congress not to care and give us cover to keep going. OR else.) What is the "or else" part?

It's the either/or, my way or the highway, up/down stance of all authoritarians. Bush only see in two dimensions. His and whatever else there is. His is always right, whatever else is always wrong. That's not the thinking of President of a democratic republic, is it?

Here's the New York Times today,
Quote:
Editorial
Bush Untethered

Published: September 17, 2006
Watching the president on Friday in the Rose Garden as he threatened to quit interrogating terrorists if Congress did not approve his detainee bill, we were struck by how often he acts as though there were not two sides to a debate. We have lost count of the number of times he has said Americans have to choose between protecting the nation precisely the way he wants, and not protecting it at all.

On Friday, President Bush posed a choice between ignoring the law on wiretaps, and simply not keeping tabs on terrorists. Then he said the United States could rewrite the Geneva Conventions, or just stop questioning terrorists. To some degree, he is following a script for the elections: terrify Americans into voting Republican. But behind that seems to be a deeply seated conviction that under his leadership, America is right and does not need the discipline of rules. He does not seem to understand that the rules are what makes this nation as good as it can be.

The debate over prisoners is not about whether some field agent can dunk Osama bin Laden's head to learn the location of the ticking bomb, as one senator suggested last week. It is about whether the United States can confront terrorism without shredding our democratic heritage. This nation is built on the notion that the rules restrain our behavior, because we know we're fallible.they might just require Mr. Bush to recognize that he is subject to the same restraints that applied to every other president of this nation of laws.
emphasis mine
========
Somewhere along the line, George got the idea that he is above all that and that this war, however odd it is, is somehow completely different from all the other conflicts this nation has faced. He's not and it's not. If we are going to succeed as a democratic nation we must first uphold the laws and moral principles which brought us this far in history, else we defame that history and lose the very freedoms we seek to export to the world.

George doesn't understand that and that's what makes him the worst President in history.

Joe(No surprise there)Nation
0 Replies
 
MarionT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2006 11:30 pm
Yes, Bush has violated the Geneva Convention. How will our troops fare if they are captured. Someone made fun of the torture saying that a prisoner had been put into a freezing room and forced to listen to rock music. They thought that the rock music item was funny. They did not elaborate on the freezing room, however. That is torture of the most vicious type.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 02:25 am
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 06:25 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.


What "Army Field Manual" are you talking about, Brandon? There are literally dozens of "Army Field Manuals".
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 08:24 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.


Quote:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-intel18sep18,0,3407082.story?coll=la-home-nation

How about you, brandon, putting your little dick on the line and clarifying for the rest of us the disparity between what was done, what the SC held could and could not be done, and what Bush now wants to be able to do.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 09:39 am
blatham wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.


Quote:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-intel18sep18,0,3407082.story?coll=la-home-nation

How about you, brandon, putting your little dick on the line and clarifying for the rest of us the disparity between what was done, what the SC held could and could not be done, and what Bush now wants to be able to do.

Why should I? The fact that I ask someone to support an assertion he's made doesn't obligate me to do anything more.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 09:40 am
snood wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.


What "Army Field Manual" are you talking about, Brandon? There are literally dozens of "Army Field Manuals".

"Human Intelligence Collector Operations"
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 09:52 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
blatham wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.


Quote:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-intel18sep18,0,3407082.story?coll=la-home-nation

How about you, brandon, putting your little dick on the line and clarifying for the rest of us the disparity between what was done, what the SC held could and could not be done, and what Bush now wants to be able to do.

Why should I? The fact that I ask someone to support an assertion he's made doesn't obligate me to do anything more.


Perhaps to demonstrate that you are capable of thought?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 08:33 pm
I'll try to be concise although this is a complex issue.

Given that the USA used the CIA to interrogate detainees at secret prisons and that there are many citations for that, blatham's included, that include the admission of the use of aggressive measures in those prisons and the reported cessesstion of those methods after the USSC ruled the entire process of holding the detainees violated the Geneva Conventions, it is probably not necessary to provide further sites regarding those actions.

It's no secret anymore but let me know, I can be as redundant as you want.

What the White House is up to now is getting the Congress to do not one but two things: one, validate, through the passage of a law, a structure that can be used to continue to hold the detainees (ad infinitum?) and subject them to some sort of Tribunal to face the evidence of their guilt or innocence AND, and this is crucial, make some strong statement that actions applied prior to the USSC ruling, such as waterboarding, cannot be held as evidence of wrongdoing by CIA or US Military personnel who might be charged in an international court. They want an interpretation of the Geneva Convention which allows what has already been done to be excused, and critics say, would allow any signatory nation to make their own interpretation of the rules.

So the program, as it's known, could then go forward and the guys and gals down at the CIA would be off the hook (maybe) for the previous bad actions (with, not doubt, good intentions.)

Oh, and by the by, "Human Intelligence Collector Operations" is an Army Manual which has nadda to do with the CIA. Some of those Black Ops boys can whip out the saran wrap and pour on the ice water and we wouldn't know a thing about it until the story appeared on the front page of the New York Times.

Joe(McCain and others would like there to be a program, but one that might have some conscience and sense of morality to it.)Nation
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 08:34 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
snood wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.


What "Army Field Manual" are you talking about, Brandon? There are literally dozens of "Army Field Manuals".

"Human Intelligence Collector Operations"


C'mon Brandon. I have access to a lot of publications. Field manuals have identifier numbers - like FM 21-20 is the Army Physical Fitness Field Manual, and FM 22-5 is the Army Drill and Ceremony Manual...?
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 08:36 pm
FM) 2-22.3, Human Intelligence Collector Operations
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Sep, 2006 08:42 pm
Thanks, Intrepid. I'm searching for mention of waterboarding now...
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Sep, 2006 03:00 am
And in the Times this morning a re-hash of what I just said:

Quote:
Interrogators' Methods What Mr. Bush really wants, legal experts on both sides of the debate say, is latitude so the interrogators can use methods that the military is barred from using under a recently issued Army field manual.


emphasis mine.

Joe(Who is going to stop them?)Nation
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Sep, 2006 08:20 am
blatham wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
blatham wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Brandon hasn't been following the issue very closely. If he listened to the President's speech regarding moving the fourteen detainees from the secret CIA prisons to Guantanamo last week he would understand what the administration's problem is. They've already violated the Geneva Conventions, by using the CIA to interrogate the prisoners using methods such as water boarding and other coercive, now they want the Congress to say that's okay....

Then why does the new edition of The Army Field Manual ban water boarding? Provide a citation to show that the Bush administration is now seeking permission to make water boarding legal.


Quote:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-intel18sep18,0,3407082.story?coll=la-home-nation

How about you, brandon, putting your little dick on the line and clarifying for the rest of us the disparity between what was done, what the SC held could and could not be done, and what Bush now wants to be able to do.

Why should I? The fact that I ask someone to support an assertion he's made doesn't obligate me to do anything more.


Perhaps to demonstrate that you are capable of thought?

Yes, and I'm sure you'll be happy to run off on every wild goose chase that I set for you. Your demonstratuon that I'm not taking orders from you doesn't constitute a successful rebuttal of anything that I've herein asserted.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Sep, 2006 10:40 am
It's not so much an issue whether or not it's officially banned by the military. The fact is that it's taking place against the poilicies of a much larger body--the Geneva Conventions
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Sep, 2006 10:42 am
PDF of the manual can be found here.
I hope Brandon didn't send us off on a wild goose chase.

http://www.army.mil/references/FM2-22.3.pdf
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Sep, 2006 11:04 am
Waded through many many pages last night.
Got me sleepy....
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 05:12 am
...never found the water-boarding reference...
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Sep, 2006 05:47 am
snood wrote:
...never found the water-boarding reference...

Here is the source of my information:

Quote:
On September 6, 2006, the United States Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel.


Wikipedia
0 Replies
 
 

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