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The Worst President in History?

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Sep, 2006 07:38 pm
Oh right.

It's Congress's fault and not our beloved Chief Executive. Please take note students, and see how the conservative authoritarian mind works. In the prior administration and for several long months after everything was Bill Clinton's fault and the GOP controlled Congress was innocent of any wrongheadedness.

Now fast forward to the present, the wingnuts have a problem, they can't point a finger at their revered President (He Who Has Never Made Any Mistakes) so Congress has to take the hit.

Kinda goofy thinking isn't it? I mean here you have the most active -legislation writing- administration in history, they are proud of that actually, with a direct line to both the Speaker of the House and the Majority Leader of the Senate, both of whom have funnelled that legislation directly from the President's desk to the Chamber floors and back to his desk for his signature.

How do we know that the President agreed with all those Congressional decision that our conservative poster finds fault with ??? Well, let's look at all of his vetos. All one of them that is. Yep. One veto in six years, just one. (Killed that nasty stem cell research money.)

All seems in agreement between the two branches, yet it is Congress, not the President, which gets the fickle finger of fate for spending the most in history (How unConservative!!), passing the first ever tax cuts in war time and for approving a unilateral invasion based on what we now know was the most cherry-picked, cheerleadered, pig-in-a-poke cakewalk ever.

The President beamed like the winner of a new car lottery when he signed those budgets bills.

The President did more than sign that tax cut, he rode it like a pony because it was his big idea.

And the poor duff pushed the attack on Iraq till his head nearly exploded.
He still believes his own gasbagging, still mumbling about how (no WMDs) much (No al Queda ties) of a (sanctioned up to his neck) threat Saddam was before the invasion. (Still no realization of how much the balance of power has been shifted to Iran thanks to George's obsession. hmmm.)

(Did you know the amount of revenue cut [81 Billion] is more than DOUBLE the amount this President and Congress spent on Homeland Security?? That's funny too, isn't it? Don't you think they might want to spend some extra on actually defending us rather than shooting their way into the history books??)

Anyway, try to remember that nothing is ever George's fault.

Joe(Not ever, never, ever.)Nation
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2006 06:07 am
How things change.

Friday, June 07, 2002

September 11, 2006
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2006 10:27 am
Quote:
America's Ideologue in Chief
By Patrick J. Buchanan

09/09/06 "CS -- -- "The war we fight today is more than a military conflict," said President Bush to the American Legion. "It is the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century."

But if the ideology of our enemy is "Islamofascism," what is the ideology of George W. Bush? According to James Montanye, writing in The Independent Review, it is "democratic fundamentalism." Montanye borrows Joseph Schumpeter's depiction of Marxism to describe it.

Like Marxism, he writes, democratic fundamentalism "presents, first, a system of ultimate ends that embody the meaning of life and are absolute standards by which to judge events and actions; and, secondly, a guide to those ends which implies a plan of salvation and the indication of the evil from which mankind, or a chosen section of mankind, is to be saved. … It belongs to that subgroup (of ?'isms') which promises paradise this side of the grave."

Ideology is substitute religion, and Bush's beliefs were on display in his address to the Legion, where he painted the "decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century" in terms of good and evil.

"On the one side are those who believe in the values of freedom … the right of all people to speak, and worship, and live in liberty. And on the other side are those driven by the values of tyranny and extremism, the right of a self-appointed few to impose their fanatical views on all the rest."

Casting one's cause in such terms can be effective in wartime. In his Gettysburg Address and Second Inaugural, Lincoln converted a war to crush Southern secession into a crusade to end slavery and save democracy on earth.

Wilson recast a European war of imperial powers as a " war to end war" and "make the world safe for democracy." FDR and Churchill in the Atlantic Charter talked of securing "the Four Freedoms," but were soon colluding to hand over Eastern Europe to the worst tyrant and mass murderer of the 20th century.

The peril of ideology is that it rarely comports with reality and is contradicted by history, thus leading inevitably to disillusionment and tragedy. Consider but a few of the assertions in Bush's address.

Said Bush, we know by "history and logic" that "promoting democracy is the surest way to build security." But history and logic teach, rather, what George Washington taught: The best way to preserve peace is to be prepared for war and to stay out of wars that are none of the nation's business.

"Democracies don't attack each other or threaten the peace," said Bush. How does he then explain the War of 1812, when we went to war against Britain, when she was standing up to Napoleon? What about the War Between the States? Were not the seceding states democratic? What about the Boer War, begun by the Brits? What about World War I, fought between the world's democracies, which also happened to be empires ruling subject peoples?

In May 1901, a 26-year-old Tory member of Parliament rose to issue a prophetic warning: "Democracy is more vindictive than Cabinets. The wars of peoples will be more terrible than the wars of kings." Considering the war that came in 1914 and the vindictive peace it produced, giving us Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini and Hitler, was not Churchill more right than Bush?

"Governments accountable to the people focus on building roads and schools ?- not weapons of mass destruction," said Bush. But is it not the democracies ?- Israel, India, Britain, France, the United States ?- that possess a preponderance of nuclear weapons? Are they all disarming? Were not the Western nations first to invent and use poison gas and atom bombs?

Insisting it is the lack of freedom that fuels terrorism, Bush declares, "Young people who have a say in their future are less likely to search for meaning in extremism." Tell it to Mussolini and the Blackshirts. Tell it to the Nazis, who loathed the free republic of Weimar, as did the communists.

"Citizens who can join a peaceful political party are less likely to join a terrorist organization." But the West has been plagued by terrorists since the anarchists. The Baader-Meinhoff Gang in Germany, the Red Brigades in Italy, the Puerto Ricans who tried to kill Harry Truman, the London subway bombers were all raised in freedom.

"Dissidents with the freedom to protest around the clock," said the president, "are less likely to blow themselves up at rush hour." But Hamas and Islamic Jihad resort to suicide bombing because they think it a far more effective way to overthrow Israeli rule than marching with signs.

What Bush passed over in his speech is that it is the autocratic regimes in Cairo, Riyadh and Amman that hold back the pent-up animosity toward America and Israel, and free elections that have advanced Hamas, Hezbollah, the Moslem Brotherhood and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to power.

In Iraq, we see the inevitable tragedy of ideology, of allowing some intellectual construct, not rooted in reality, to take control of the minds of men.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2006 07:04 pm
I personally don't think it is going to amount to much, in the end a bill will probably be signed where the president reserves the right to do what he wants making it look like something big happened, but:

Negotiations on terror bill snag

Quote:
WASHINGTON - The White House and three powerful GOP senators reached an impasse Wednesday over a Bush administration plan to allow tough CIA interrogations, underscoring election-season divisions among Republicans on the high profile issue of security.

In a direct challenge to President Bush, Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), chairman of the Armed Services Committee, said his panel would meet Thursday to finalize an alternative to the White House plan to prosecute terror suspects and redefine acts that constitute war crimes. Warner, R-Va., said the administration proposal would lower the standard for the treatment of prisoners, potentially putting U.S. troops at risk should other countries retaliate.

The White House said Warner's proposal would undermine the nation's ability to interrogate prisoners and arranged an extraordinary conference call with reporters in which the nation's top intelligence official criticized Warner's plan.

"If this draft legislation were passed in its present form, the director of the Central Intelligence Agency has told me that he did not believe that the (interrogation) program could go forward," National Intelligence Director John Negroponte said.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Sep, 2006 07:53 pm
Sen. John Warner has shown again his intelligence and his sense that this administration is attempting to disolve whatever moral standards this nation has left.

Who is the world doesn't say "yeah, sure, whatever" whever this President proclaims that America doesn't condone torture.

Joe(geez, how far we have fallen)Nation
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 01:04 am
Bush the Worst?

The Bush League
How low can he go?

By Gene Weingarten
Sunday, September 10, 2006; Page W40

We in the media are sometimes accused of letting liberal bias subtly slip into our writing and reporting. That accusation is calumny. We are dispassionate observers and seekers of truth. All we do is ask questions.

Today's question: Is George W. Bush the worst president in American history?

An examination of this issue requires that we first consider possible alternatives. Historians pretty much agree on the three leading contenders, to date.

Franklin Pierce (1853-57)

Pro: Cinematically handsome.

Con: Bad hair.

Pro: High-spirited.

Con: Those spirits were mostly distilled alcohol, taken straight, in quantities that could incapacitate a hippo. When president, Pierce actually was arrested after running over an old woman with his carriage, most likely while soused. Died of cirrhosis.

Pro: Strong political convictions . . .

Con: . . . the strongest of which was about slavery. He thought it was swell. Pierce was elected because the Southern states thought he was the one Northerner they could trust, and he was. "Involuntary servitude is recognized by the Constitution," Pierce said, "and stands like any other admitted right."

Pro: Ambitiously, he wanted to annex Cuba . . .

Con: . . . because he wanted another slave state.

Greatest achievement: History books reveal that, during the Pierce presidency, "the first perforated postage stamp was used."

Pro: Had an expressive, entertaining face.

Con: A vision problem forced him to cock his head at an odd angle, so, in most surviving photos, Buchanan seems to be saying, "You lookin' at me? You want a piece of me?"

Below the Beltway
"Elite" company: from left to right, James Buchanan, Franklin Pierce and Warren G. Harding.


Pro: He thought slavery was wrong.

Con: He was too weak-willed to oppose it.

Pro: He didn't think the Southern states should secede.

Con: He was too weak-willed to oppose them.

Greatest achievement: Was such a dismally inept nonentity, with such a shameful legacy of nonfeasance during a period of grave crisis, that his party -- the Democrats -- splintered in disarray. This led to the election of Republican Abraham Lincoln. So in a sense, Buchanan single-handedly saved the nation.

Warren G. Harding (1921-23)

Pro: Handsome. Women had just won the right to vote, after an arduous struggle to be recognized as equals. Harding was chosen by his party on the theory that the ignorant little ninnies would go for the better-looking man.

Con: He was a moron.

Pro: He knew he was a moron. He could not believe it when he was nominated, asking his handlers if they were sure there was no one more qualified: "I am a man of limited talents."

Con: He dishonored the White House by having furtive sex with his mistress in a closet near the Oval Office. This was Clinton, without the charm or brains or ability.

Pro: He was not personally corrupt.

Con: Nearly everyone he appointed was corrupt. His friends exploited his dimwitted good nature, taking everything they could grab. His own father once told him, "Warren, it's a good thing you weren't born a girl, because you can't say 'no.'"

Greatest achievement: Died in office.


SO WHAT ABOUT GEORGE W.? Can he take a rightful place among these dwarfs?

Consider some testimonials.

About the president acting unilaterally, without seeking advice or consent: "The incompetence of his administration [has not stopped] it from vigorously defending the president's sole authority to control the execution of the law."

About the president's response to crisis: "He acted with his usual strong determination, dogged stubbornness and confused insight."

About the president's mangling of the English language: "It reminds me of stale bean soup, of college yells, of dogs barking idiotically through endless nights. It is so bad that a sort of grandeur creeps into it . . . It is rumble and bumble. It is flap and doodle. It is balder and dash."

Okay, ready? The first two were by historians, about Pierce and Buchanan, respectively. The last was by H.L. Mencken, about Harding. If they sounded contemporary, you may have your answer.

Gene Weingarten's e-mail address is [email protected].
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 02:42 am
Rox.... thanks for posting that.


Joe(deep thoughts)Nation
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 03:44 am
Joe Nation wrote:
Sen. John Warner has shown again his intelligence and his sense that this administration is attempting to disolve whatever moral standards this nation has left.

Who is the world doesn't say "yeah, sure, whatever" whever this President proclaims that America doesn't condone torture.

Joe(geez, how far we have fallen)Nation

And you have some reason to think that we do condone torture? Anything you're able to share?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 04:35 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Joe Nation wrote:
Sen. John Warner has shown again his intelligence and his sense that this administration is attempting to disolve whatever moral standards this nation has left.

Who is the world doesn't say "yeah, sure, whatever" whever this President proclaims that America doesn't condone torture.

Joe(geez, how far we have fallen)Nation

And you have some reason to think that we do condone torture? Anything you're able to share?


brandon, there isn't really any reason for us to bother with you much any longer. There is very little evidence to suggest that you do research or reading on any of the issues we tend to discuss here. Have you read any Amnesty International reports? Even any accounts of their content? Could you, even briefly, make some precis here of John Yoo's or David Addington's legal interpretations of what defines "torture"? Or of how that definition is at odds with existing US military codes or international codes and agreements to which the US is signatory? Could you explain, in a short and concise manner, what Linsey Grapham's position on this is and why?

Perhaps you conceive that you are engaged in a socratic enterprise. You aren't. Socrates advanced arguments, forwarded analogies, produced careful lines of reasoning to demonstrate the prudence of epistemological humility.

So, why don't you give us 200 careful and thoughtful words on "torture". Use fingernail extraction as an example.

Unless you demonstrate some ability to actually address these matters with integrity, there's really no reason for any of us to consider you as anything even slightly different from that inevitable neighborhood kid who, when playing cowboys and injuns, does nothing at all except for the constant refrain of "You missed me".

Step up. Be a man.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 05:59 am
Quote:
Lieutenant General Schmidt, who had overseen the report on FBI allegations of abuse at Guantanamo, later testified that Rumsfeld had been "personally involved," and was being given "weekly updates" on the interrogation of one detainee, who was kept near-freezing and led around naked on a leash. Interrogation logs later showed that the detainee's heart rate became so slow during his "cold" treatment that he nearly died. Another prisoner in CIA custody in Afghanistan died of hypothermia.

http://www.cjr.org/issues/2006/5/Umansky.asp
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 06:18 am
I hope this time McCain stands firm and not allow bush after the bill is agreed upon to put stipulations in it which allows him the right to do what he wants like he did with the other torture bill. However, for now this is encouraging and he is making public statements which can be used if he backs down.

Quote:
McCain expressed bewilderment at an administration stand that he said would tamper with interpretations of the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of war. That stand is firmly opposed by top military lawyers. "The overwhelming majority of retired military people are weighing in on this issue and saying, 'Don't amend Common Article 3 [of the Geneva Conventions] because then you are allowing other nations' " to conclude that they, too, can change the conventions, McCain said.

McCain and his allies were unable to persuade White House negotiators to agree that an alleged enemy combatant could not be convicted on the basis of classified information that is not shared in some form with the defendant. "We're still gridlocked on that," McCain said. "They want to turn 200 years of criminal procedure on its head."


source

Also from the above source, I think it is telling that congress is giving Bush the authority to do what he claims he already has the authority to do, such as wiretapping.

Quote:
With prodding from Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), the Senate Judiciary Committee voted 10 to 8 along party lines to approve a bill negotiated with the White House to allow -- but not require -- Bush to submit the National Security Agency's warrantless wiretapping program to a secret court for constitutional review.

That bill, which could come before the Senate next week, is considered by many to be a ratification of the administration's current surveillance program, which monitors the overseas phone calls and e-mails of some Americans when one party is suspected of links to terrorism. The program has been attacked by Democrats and civil liberties advocates as an excessive encroachment on Americans' privacy.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 04:10 pm
So far they seem to be holding firm.

Senate panel defies Bush on terror

Quote:
WASHINGTON - A rebellious Senate committee defied President Bush on Thursday and approved terror-detainee legislation he has vowed to block, deepening Republican conflict over terrorism and national security in the middle of election season.

Republican Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record) of Virginia, normally a Bush supporter, pushed the measure through his Armed Services Committee by a 15-9 vote, with Warner and three other GOP lawmakers joining Democrats. The vote set the stage for a showdown on the Senate floor as early as next week.

Earlier in the day, Bush had journeyed to the Capitol to try nailing down support for his own version of the legislation.

"I will resist any bill that does not enable this program to go forward with legal clarity," Bush said at the White House.

The president's measure would go further than the Senate package in allowing classified evidence to be withheld from defendants in terror trials, using coerced testimony and protecting U.S. interrogators against prosecution for using methods that violate the Geneva Conventions.

The internal GOP struggle intensified along other fronts, too, as Colin Powell, Bush's first secretary of state, declared his opposition to the president's plan.

"The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism," Powell, a retired general who is also a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote in a letter.


The reason I post this stuff here is because Bush's record on how he treats defendants and those in our custody is one of the reason why I feel this president is the worse presidents we have ever had.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Sep, 2006 05:02 pm
Quote:



Sen. Graham: White House Held Military Lawyers In 5 Hour Meeting and ?'Tried To Force Them To Sign A Prepared Statement'

This morning, President Bush was questioned about Gen. Colin Powell's letter criticizing White House legislation that would authorize torture. Bush tried to downplay Powell's letter by pointing to another letter signed by the military's top uniformed lawyers saying they supported Bush's plan:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/14/graham4/

0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:09 pm
Quote:
The Myth of the Ticking Time Bomb
By Alfred W. McCoy
October 2006

Ask not for whom the bomb ticks, Mr. and Ms. America. Right now, across Los Angeles, timers on dozens of toxic nerve-gas canisters are set to detonate in just hours and send some two million Americans to their deaths in writhing agony.

But take hope. We have one chance, just one, to avert this atrocity and save the lives of millions. Agent Jack Bauer of the Counter Terrorist Unit has his hunting knife poised over the eye of a trembling traitor who may know the identity of those who set these bombs. As a clock ticks menacingly and the camera focuses on knife point poised to plunge into eyeball, the traitor breaks and identifies the Muslim terrorists, giving Agent Bauer the lead he needs to crack this case wide open.

As happens with mind-numbing regularity every week on Fox Television's hit show 24, torture has once again worked to save us all from the terror of a ticking bomb, affirming for millions of loyal viewers that torture is a necessary weapon in George Bush's war on terror.

"Major success from limited, surgical torture is a fable, a fiction. . . . As we slide down the slippery slope to torture in general, we should also realize that there is a chasm at the bottom called extrajudicial execution."Just days before the fifth anniversary of 9/11, President Bush himself appeared live from the East Room before an audience of handpicked 9/11 families for a dramatic announcement that mimed, with eerie precision, the ticking-bomb logic of 24, which is wildly popular among Washington's neoconservatives. With clipped, secret-agent diction reminiscent of the show's Emmy Award-winning star, Kiefer Sutherland, Bush said he was transferring fourteen top Al Qaeda captives, including the alleged 9/11 mastermind, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, from long-secret CIA prisons to Guantánamo Bay. At once both repudiating and legitimating past abuses, Bush denied that he had ever authorized "torture." Simultaneously, he defended the CIA's effort to coerce "vital information" from these "dangerous" captives with what the President called an "alternative set of procedures"?-a euphemism transparent to any viewer of 24.

In defense of the CIA's past and future use of this "alternative set of procedures," Bush told his national television audience a thrilling tale of covert action derring-do almost plucked from the pages of a script for 24. After "they risked their lives to capture some of the most brutal terrorists on Earth," courageous American agents "worked day and night" to track down "a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden" named Abu Zubaydah. But once in custody, he was "defiant and evasive." Knowing that "captured terrorists have . . . intelligence that cannot be found any other place," the CIA, with White House approval, applied that "alternative set of procedures" and thereby extracted timely information that "helped in the planning . . . of the operation that captured Khalid Sheik Mohammed." Then, "KSM was questioned by the CIA using these procedures," producing intelligence that stopped a succession of lethal ticking bombs.

The mind-boggling catalogue of these plots, the President told us, included "Al Qaeda's efforts to produce anthrax," a terror assault on U.S. Marines in Djibouti with "an explosive-laden water tanker," "a planned attack on the U.S. consulate in Karachi using car bombs," "a plot to hijack passenger planes and fly them into Heathrow," and "planned attacks on buildings in the United States" with bombs planted "to prevent the people trapped above from escaping out the windows."

Of course, the President could not, he said with a knowing wink to his audience, describe "the specific methods used in these CIA interrogations" because "it would help the terrorists learn how to resist questioning." Although these "procedures were tough," they had proved vital, the President assured us, in extracting "information about terrorist plans we could not get anywhere else" and thus prevented Al Qaeda from "launching another attack against the American homeland." If Congress and the Supreme Court would simply set aside their constitutional qualms about these "tough" methods, Bush concluded, then the "brave men and women" who work in this CIA program can continue "to obtain information that will save innocent lives."

As in so many of these ticking-bomb tales, Bush's supposed successes crumble on closer examination. Just four days later, The New York Times reported that the FBI claimed it got the key information from Abu Zubaydah with its noncoercive methods and that other agencies already had much of his supposedly "vital" intelligence.

Like President Bush, influential pro-pain pundits have long cited the ticking-bomb scenario to defend torture as a necessary evil in the war on terror. Indeed, in this most pragmatic of modern societies, we are witnessing a rare triumph of academic philosophy in the realm of national security.

More than thirty years ago, the philosopher Michael Walzer, writing about the ancient problem of "dirty hands" for an obscure academic journal, Philosophy and Public Affairs, speculated about the morality of a politician "asked to authorize the torture of a captured rebel leader who knows the locality of a number of bombs hidden in apartment buildings around the city, set to go off within the next twenty-four hours." [Emphasis added.] Even though he believes torture is "wrong, indeed abominable," this moral politician orders the man tortured, "convinced that he must do so for the sake of the people who might otherwise die in the explosions."

In all likelihood, Walzer's writing would have remained unnoticed on page 167 of an unread journal if not for the tireless efforts of an academic acolyte, Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School. In newspaper op-eds and television appearances since 9/11, Dershowitz has transformed this fragmentary philosophical rumination into a full-blown case for torture by recounting a similar scenario which, often set in Times Square, "involves a captured terrorist who refuses to divulge information about the imminent use of weapons of mass destruction, such as a nuclear, chemical, or biological device, that are capable of killing and injuring thousands of civilians."

From this hypothetical, Professor Dershowitz segues to the realm of reality: "If torture is, in fact, being used and/or would, in fact, be used in an actual ticking bomb terrorist case, would it be normatively better or worse to have such torture regulated by some kind of warrant?" Such a warrant, he tells us, would authorize interrogators to shove steel needles under Arab fingernails. Dershowitz assumes that his putative torture warrants "would reduce the incidence of abuses," since high officials, operating on the record, would never authorize "methods of the kind shown in the Abu Ghraib photographs."

With torture now a key weapon in the war on terror, the time has come to interrogate the logic of the ticking time bomb with a six-point critique. For this scenario embodies our deepest fears and makes most of us quietly?-unwittingly?-complicit in the Bush Administration's recourse to torture.

Number one: In the real world, the probability that a terrorist might be captured after concealing a ticking nuclear bomb in Times Square and that his captors would somehow recognize his significance is phenomenally slender. The scenario assumes a highly improbable array of variables that runs something like this:

?-First, FBI or CIA agents apprehend a terrorist at the precise moment between timer's first tick and bomb's burst.

?-Second, the interrogators somehow have sufficiently detailed foreknowledge of the plot to know they must interrogate this very person and do it right now.

?-Third, these same officers, for some unexplained reason, are missing just a few critical details that only this captive can divulge.

?-Fourth, the biggest leap of all, these officers with just one shot to get the information that only this captive can divulge are best advised to try torture, as if beating him is the way to assure his wholehearted cooperation.

Take the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, who sat in a Minneapolis cell in the weeks before 9/11 under desultory investigation as a possible "suicide hijacker" because the FBI did not have precise foreknowledge of Al Qaeda's plot or his possible role. In pressing for a search warrant before 9/11, the bureau's Minneapolis field supervisor even warned Washington he was "trying to keep someone from taking a plane and crashing into the World Trade Center." But FBI headquarters in Washington replied there was no evidence Moussaoui was a terrorist?-providing us with yet another reminder of how difficult it is to grasp the significance of even such stunningly accurate insight or intelligence in the absence of foreknowledge.

"After the event," Roberta Wohlstetter wrote in her classic study of that other great U.S. intelligence failure, Pearl Harbor, "a signal is always crystal clear; we can now see what disaster it was signaling since the disaster has occurred. But before the event, it is obscure and pregnant with conflicting meanings."

Number two: This scenario still rests on the critical, utterly unexamined assumption that torture can get useful intelligence quickly from this or any hardened terrorist.

Advocates of the ticking bomb often cite the brutal torture of Abdul Hakim Murad in Manila in 1995, which they say stopped a plot to blow up a dozen trans-Pacific aircraft and kill 4,000 innocent passengers. Except, of course, for the simple fact that Murad's torture did nothing of the sort. As The Washington Post has reported, Manila police got all their important information from Murad in the first few minutes when they seized his laptop with the entire bomb plot. All the supposed details gained from the sixty-seven days of incessant beatings, spiced by techniques like cigarettes to the genitals, were, as one Filipino officer testified in a New York court, fabrications fed to Murad by Philippine police.

Even if the terrorist begins to talk under torture, interrogators have a hard time figuring out whether he is telling the truth or not. Testing has found that professional interrogators perform within the 45 to 60 percent range in separating truth from lies?-little better than flipping a coin. Thus, as intelligence data moves through three basic stages?-acquisition, analysis, and action?-the chances that good intelligence will be ignored are high.

After fifty years of fighting enemies, communist and terrorist, with torture, we now have sufficient evidence to conclude that torture of the few yields little useful information. As the ancient Roman jurist Ulpian noted 1,800 years ago, when tortured the strong will resist and the weak will say anything to end the pain.

History is replete with examples of the strong who resisted even the most savage tortures. After the July 20, 1944, bomb plot against Hitler, the Gestapo subjected Fabian von Schlabrendorff to four weeks of torture by metal spikes and beatings so severe he suffered a heart attack. But with a stoicism typical of these conspirators, he broke his silence only to give the Gestapo a few scraps of vague information when he feared involuntarily blurting out serious intelligence.

Then there are the weak. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, a senior Al Qaeda leader, under torture told his captors that Iraq trained Al Qaeda in chemical and biological weapons. This raises the possibility that he, like Murad, had been tortured into giving fabricated intelligence. Colin Powell relied on this false information in his now-disavowed speech to the United Nations before the Iraq War.

As Yale legal historian John Langbein puts it, "History's most important lesson is that it has not been possible to make coercion compatible with truth."

Proponents of torture present a false choice between tortured intelligence and no intelligence at all. There is, in fact, a well-established American alternative to torture that we might call empathetic interrogation. U.S. Marines first used this technique during World War II to extract accurate intelligence from fanatical Japanese captives on Saipan and Tinian within forty-eight hours of landing, and the FBI has practiced it with great success in the decades since. After the East Africa bombings of U.S. embassies, the bureau employed this method to gain some of our best intelligence on Al Qaeda and win U.S. court convictions of all of the accused.

One of the bureau agents who worked on that case, Dan Coleman, has since been appalled by the CIA's coercive methods after 9/11. "Have any of these guys ever tried to talk to anyone who's been deprived of his clothes?" Coleman asked. "He's going to be ashamed and humiliated and cold. He'll tell you anything you want to hear to get his clothes back. There's no value in it." By contrast, FBI reliance on due process and empathy proved effective in terror cases by building rapport with detainees.

Bush's example of Zubaydah actually supports Coleman's point. FBI agents say they were getting more out of him before the CIA came in with gloves off.

"Brutalization doesn't work," Coleman concluded from his years in FBI counterterrorism. "We know that. Besides, you lose your soul."


Number three: Once we agree to torture the one terrorist with his hypothetical ticking bomb, then we admit a possibility, even an imperative, for torturing hundreds who might have ticking bombs or thousands who just might have some knowledge about those bombs. "You can't know whether a person knows where the bomb is," explains Georgetown University Law Professor David Cole, "or even if they're telling the truth. Because of this, you end up going down a slippery slope and sanctioning torture in general."

Most of those rounded up by military sweeps in Iraq and Afghanistan for imprisonment at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo had nothing to do with terrorism. A recent analysis of the Pentagon listing of Guantánamo's 517 detainees reveals that 86 percent were arrested not by U.S. forces but by Northern Alliance and Pakistani warlords eager to collect a $5,000 bounty for every "terrorist" captured.

Ironically, though, torture of the many can produce results, albeit at a surprisingly high political price.

The CIA tortured tens of thousands in Vietnam and the French tortured hundreds of thousands in Algeria. During the Battle of Algiers in 1957, French soldiers arrested 30 percent to 40 percent of all males in the city's Casbah and subjected most of these to what one French officer called "beatings, electric shocks, and, in particular, water torture, which was always the most dangerous technique for the prisoner." Though many resisted to the point of death, mass torture gained sufficient intelligence to break the rebel underground. The CIA's Phoenix program no doubt damaged the Viet Cong's communist infrastructure by torture-interrogation of countless South Vietnamese civilians.

So the choices are clear. Major success from limited, surgical torture is a fable, a fiction. But mass torture of thousands of suspects, some guilty, most innocent, can produce some useful intelligence.

Number four: Useful intelligence perhaps, but at what cost? The price of torture is unacceptably high because it disgraces and then undermines the country that countenances it. For the French in Algeria, for the Americans in Vietnam, and now for the Americans in Iraq, the costs have been astronomical and have outweighed any gains gathered by torture.

Official sources are nearly unanimous that the yield from the massive Phoenix program, with more than forty prisons across South Vietnam systematically torturing thousands of suspected communists, was surprisingly low. One Pentagon contract study found that, in 1970-71, only 3 percent of the Viet Cong "killed, captured, or rallied were full or probationary Party members above the district level." Not surprisingly, such a brutal pacification effort failed either to crush the Viet Cong or win the support of Vietnamese villagers, contributing to the ultimate U.S. defeat in the Vietnam War.

Similarly, the French army won the Battle of Algiers but soon lost the war for Algeria, in part because their systematic torture delegitimated the larger war effort in the eyes of most Algerians and many French. "You might say that the Battle of Algiers was won through the use of torture," observed British journalist Sir Alistair Horne, "but that the war, the Algerian war, was lost."

Even the comparatively limited torture at Abu Ghraib has done incalculable damage to America's international prestige.

In short, the intelligence gains are soon overwhelmed by political costs as friends and enemies recoil in revulsion at such calculated savagery.

Indeed, the U.S. Army's current field manual, FM: Intelligence Interrogation 34-52, contains an implicit warning about these high political costs: "Revelation of use of torture by U.S. personnel," it warns, "will bring discredit upon the U.S. and its armed forces while undermining domestic and international support for the war effort."

Number five: These dismal conclusions lead to a last, uncomfortable question: If torture produces limited gains at such high political cost, why does any rational American leader condone interrogation practices "tantamount to torture"?

One answer to this question seems to lie with a prescient CIA Cold War observation about Soviet leaders in times of stress. "When feelings of insecurity develop within those holding power," reads an agency analysis of Kremlin leadership applicable to the post-9/11 White House, "they become increasingly suspicious and put great pressures upon the secret police to obtain arrests and confessions. At such times, police officials are inclined to condone anything which produces a speedy ?'confession,' and brutality may become widespread." In sum, the powerful often turn to torture in times of crisis, not because it works but because it salves their fears and insecurities with the psychic balm of empowerment.

As we slide down the slippery slope to torture in general, we should also realize that there is a chasm at the bottom called extrajudicial execution. With the agency's multinational gulag full of dozens, even hundreds, of detainees of dwindling utility, CIA agents, active and retired, have been vocal in their complaints about the costs and inconvenience of limitless, even lifetime, incarceration for these tortured terrorists. The ideal solution to this conundrum from an agency perspective is pump and dump, as in Vietnam?-pump the terrorists for information, and then dump the bodies. After all, the systematic French torture of thousands from the Casbah of Algiers in 1957 also entailed more than 3,000 "summary executions" as "an inseparable part" of this campaign, largely, as one French general put it, to ensure that "the machine of justice" not be "clogged with cases." For similar reasons, the CIA's Phoenix program produced, by the agency's own count, over 20,000 extrajudicial killings.

Number six: The use of torture to stop ticking bombs leads ultimately to a cruel choice?-either legalize this brutality, à la Dershowitz and Bush, or accept that the logical corollary to state-sanctioned torture is state-sponsored murder, à la Vietnam.

Alfred W. McCoy, the J.R.W. Smail Professor of History at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, is the author most recently of "A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, from the Cold War to the War on Terror."
0 Replies
 
MarionT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:15 pm
Non-coercive tactics, baloney--Everyone knows the Bushies sent the AlQaeda to be interrogated by the inhuman beasts in Eastern Europe. When the true stories come out, we will hear of electric probes being attached to genitals, the removal of fingernails and the use of rubber truncheons. The Bushies are beasts!!!
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 03:31 pm
Quote:
Non-coercive tactics, baloney--Everyone knows the Bushies sent the AlQaeda to be interrogated by the inhuman beasts in Eastern Europe. When the true stories come out, we will hear of electric probes being attached to genitals, the removal of fingernails and the use of rubber truncheons. The Bushies are beasts!!!


"The Americans brought electricity to my ass before they. brought it to my house." ~ former Abu Ghraib prisoner
0 Replies
 
MarionT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:18 pm
You are the only one who tells the truth, Freedom. Why is everyone so duped by the Bushie propaganda? All they have to do is to open their eyes and read.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:26 pm
MarionT wrote:
Non-coercive tactics, baloney--Everyone knows the Bushies sent the AlQaeda to be interrogated by the inhuman beasts in Eastern Europe. When the true stories come out, we will hear of electric probes being attached to genitals, the removal of fingernails and the use of rubber truncheons. The Bushies are beasts!!!

I'm afraid that arguments on the level of "everyone knows" and "when the true stories come out," prove nothing. Can you give a single, specific example of the torture of a prisoner which had been authorized by the Bush administration? If it's as obvious as you claim, it should only take you a moment to answer this, and demonstrate that you're actually correct and not just spouting hot air. I fully expect your answer to be an evasion.
0 Replies
 
MarionT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:30 pm
Are you so naive as to believe that the brave Al-Qaeda soldiers dedicated to Islam would give information if they were not brutally tortured. You don't know that they were not tortured. You weren't there. But we do know that they gave information. They would not have done that unless they were brutally tortured.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2006 11:39 pm
MarionT wrote:
Are you so naive as to believe that the brave Al-Qaeda soldiers dedicated to Islam would give information if they were not brutally tortured. You don't know that they were not tortured. You weren't there. But we do know that they gave information. They would not have done that unless they were brutally tortured.

This doesn't come close to proving anything. You have in essence admitted that you have not one shred of actual evidence. I'm done with you.
0 Replies
 
 

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