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Could Gore have f*cked us anywhere near as bad as Bush has?

 
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 01:30 am
Yes, this demonic Saddam is the same Saddam that Donald Rumsfeld shook hands with and supplied Weapons of Mass Destruction in the '80s during Republican Reagan years and the snake Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan too.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 03:16 am
Asherman wrote:

Quote:
What I said was that a state of War already existed with Iraq that had been suspended by a conditional cease-fire. Iraq viola...leave your mind open to the possiblility that this analysis is possible, and that people who hold it are just as sincere in their beliefs as you are.


So you are completely buffaloed. Don't worry. Be happy.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch literally, the men you so blithely put your faith in aren't really trying to build a democracy, that was never their aim until the weapons of mass destruction story evaporated. They are trying, like the good oil executives that they are, to secure supplies of petroleum for the future of their industry, uh country and now are looking at Iran and, I must say, not liking what they see. tsk tsk tsk.

("Okay? When kin we bomb them then?"
"We're in negotiations with them but they announced today [April 11] that they had succeeded in enriching some uranium."
"Oh boy, let's roll!"
"Uh... Rolling Eyes ")

At the same time, despite your hopes, Iraq continues to descend into chaos, mostly because this administration believed what you believe : that most Iraqis want to live in a moderate democracy. The problem is nobody asked them. Neither the administration nor you know if that belief is the Iraqis' belief or not. In fact, no one has ever asked the question, except me, "Who else in the Middle East wants the USA to implant a democracy in Iraq?"

You say this:
Quote:
A free Iraq would be a wedge would be driven between Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia ... and without ever violating any of those sovereign countries. I think the Administration underestimated how fiercely Iran, Syria and the radical Islamic Movement would fight to prevent establishment of such a government in the heart of a region they regard as their own.


I think you continue to underestimate the depths of their underestimation.

Joe(The answer is nobody else.)Nation
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 05:52 am
An example of how the Bush administration manipulate intelligence to lie to the American public.

Quote:
US shelved evidence discounting Iraq's WMD: report Wed Apr 12, 1:41 AM ET

The Bush administration publicly asserted that two trailers captured by U.S. troops in Iraq in May 2003 were mobile "biological laboratories" even after U.S. intelligence officials had evidence that it was not true, The Washington Post reported on Wednesday.

On May 29, 2003, President George W. Bush hailed the capture of the trailers, declaring "We have found the weapons of mass destruction."

But a Pentagon-sponsored fact-finding mission had already concluded that the trailers had nothing to do with biological weapons, the Post reported, citing government officials and weapons experts who participated in the secret mission or had direct knowledge of it.

The Post said the group's unanimous findings had been sent to the Pentagon in a field report, two days before the president's statement.

Bush cited the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction as the prime justification for invading Iraq. No such weapons ever were found.

A U.S. intelligence official, speaking to Reuters on condition of anonymity confirmed the existence of the field report but said it was a preliminary finding that had to be evaluated.

"You don't change a report that has been coordinated in the (intelligence) community based on a field report," the official said. "It's a preliminary report. No matter how strongly the individual may feel about the subject matter."

The three-page field report and a 122-page final report three weeks later were classified and shelved, The Washington Post reported. It added that for nearly a year after that, the Bush administration continued to public assert that the trailers were biological weapons factories.

The authors of the reports -- nine U.S. and British civilian experts -- were sent to Baghdad by the Defense Intelligence Agency, or DIA, the newspaper said.

A DIA spokesman told the paper that the team's findings were neither ignored nor suppressed, but were incorporated in the work of the Iraqi Survey Group, which led the official search for Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

The team's work remains classified. But the newspaper said interviews revealed that the team was unequivocal in its conclusion that the trailers were not intended to manufacture biological weapons.

"There was no connection to anything biological," one expert who studied the trailers was quoted as saying.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 09:10 am
Joe,

"Meanwhile, back at the ranch literally, the men you so blithely put your faith in aren't really trying to build a democracy, that was never their aim until the weapons of mass destruction story evaporated. They are trying, like the good oil executives that they are, to secure supplies of petroleum for the future of their industry, uh country and now are looking at Iran and, I must say, not liking what they see. tsk tsk tsk."

That's a hell of an assertion, and one that is made over and over and over. On what do you base your opinion that the Administration's decision to go into Iraq was entirely "to secure supplies of petroleum for the future (strang emphasis on personal rather than national gain)"? Why do you so completely dismiss all of the other factors that led to our entering Iraq? How do you "know" that the President was not concerned with freeing the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator, and "never" intended that a free and moderate democracy be built there?

You imply, as do others, that the Administration "knew" that Saddam had no WMD, but knowingly lied about the matter to the nation. How soon people forget!

For over a decade, Saddam did everything in his power to frustrate UN inspection to assure compliance with cease-fire conditions. He restricted where and when inspections could take place. It is true that the inspectors found virtually no evidence of WMD, and there was evidence that Saddam was playing a shell game on the inspectors. It was known with no doubt whatsoever that Saddam had once possessed huge stocks of chemical weapons, and had used them on defenseless civilian populations. He had spent huge sums in trying to acquire nuclear weapons (probably he only wanted nuclear weapons as a deterrent to aggressive U.S. colonialism, right? Very Happy ). For decades after agreeing to divest himself of such weapons, Saddam acted in a manner that fostered the strong international belief that he still had forbidden weapons, and might still be attempting to build a nuclear program. Saddam had violated other cease-fire agreements, and even stepped up his local oppression and terror campaign, so why would he shrink from violating the agreement about scrapping weapons that he so dearly loved?

Because Congress and prior Administrations constrained the U.S. Intelligence community's development of HUMINT networks, our information was overly reliant on data collected from afar. Satellite photos showed suspicious facilities, and transfer of cargos in a secret manner. Communications intercepts were filled with oblique references that seemed to be refereing to forbidden weapon stocks, and programs of a highly suspicious nature. There was no doubt whatsoever that Saddam was concealing at least some military aircraft and missiles that were supposed to be destroyed. There was solid information that agents in Russia, Germany and France were selling products to Saddam, in violation of the cease-fire, that could be used in connection with chemical and biological weapons systems. These, and other, information strongly suggested that Saddam had WMD (I really hate that term, because it is sooo in accurate of the actual weapons being referred to) in violation of the cease-fire agreements. If you take the trouble to go back and re-read the postings on A2K prior to the "invasion", you might recall that opponents of the Administration were highly vocal in their predictions that Coalition forces would be decimated by WMD, and that the Saddam's "secret weaponry" would prolong and extend the conflict to world proportions. As it turned out, everyone, except for a few mavericks, were mistaken.

Given the weight of the evidence, it was commonly believed by this country's military/intelligence community that Saddam had and would use WMD against neighboring states, or the United States if he got the chance. There isn't a shred of evidence that the President had better information about Saddam's capabilities and intentions than the intelligence specialists who were trying to penetrate Saddam's secrecy. As it happened to turn out, Saddam had virtually no WMD. Instead of being relieved that our troops were not attacked by poison, nerve, or biological agents, the Left immediately began this campaign to distort the facts.

Its a long way from making an understandable mistake, to proof that the President to the United States knowingly lied in order to advance his personal agenda of prosecuting a war against some innocent victim.

You are correct in saying that I, nor anyone else, knows for a certainty that the Iraqi People would prefer liberty to life under a religious dictatorship where women have no rights at all, and that a person can be killed by the mere decree of a religious leader. The Iraqi's who so courageously braved terrorist threats to vote for a democratic government might have been coerced out into the streets by our Marine storm troopers, but I don't think so. Its hard for me to believe that most of the downtrodden of the world do not yearn for freedom and control of their own destiny. Do common people prefer life in the 8th century to the comforts and benefits of living in the consumer world of the 21st? Sure its possible some do. Would you willingly give up the benefits of living in America, for life under the thumb of a Mullah, or a hard-shell Baptist preacher?

Of course, I assume that most of the world's Peoples yearn to live in liberty and free from oppression. If it were otherwise, would our borders be crowded with people trying to get into the country instead of out of it? I am not ashamed of my passion for liberty and the Constitution. I have not lost faith in our institutions, our People, or our elected leaders.
0 Replies
 
Jim
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 02:02 pm
I only have access to A2K a couple of days a week, so most threads are well advanced by the time I get to see them. When I saw the title to this one I thought "Oh boy, here is one I can contribute something to", but then I read through the nine pages.

Same old thing. People making personal attacks to people they disagree with instead of refuting arguments with facts and logic.

Sigh.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 02:29 pm
Well, it is all speculative, after all. But hey, any facts you'd like to bring will be welcome!!!
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 02:46 pm
Asherman wrote:
How do you "know" that the President was not concerned with freeing the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator, and "never" intended that a free and moderate democracy be built there?


Please. Five years ago, GWB did not know where Iraq was.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 03:37 pm
Very good, McTag.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 03:57 pm
Bush has spent more then any other president on vacation. Over 30 % of the presidency. Everything he has ever touched "failed" including four corporations he ran into the ground. America will be the 5th corporation he's in charge of.
___________________________________________________________

"Bush achieved a leisure landmark this month. The previous record for presidential slacking-off was 335 days. On August 18, Bush surpassed that number of days off, and he still has more than three years left in his second term.

Britain's Financial Times newspaper has dubbed Bush "the best-rested president in U.S. history."

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=16460
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 04:02 pm
Amigo wrote:
Bush has spent more then any other president on vacation. Over 30 % of the presidency. Everything he has ever touched "failed" including four corporations he ran into the ground. America will be the 5th corporation he's in charge of.
___________________________________________________________

"Bush achieved a leisure landmark this month. The previous record for presidential slacking-off was 335 days. On August 18, Bush surpassed that number of days off, and he still has more than three years left in his second term.

Britain's Financial Times newspaper has dubbed Bush "the best-rested president in U.S. history."

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=16460


Well, I think it's a given that Bush admires Reagan, who, if memory serves, also liked to kick back. Of course, Reagan was an old man at the time...
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 04:10 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
Amigo wrote:
Bush has spent more then any other president on vacation. Over 30 % of the presidency. Everything he has ever touched "failed" including four corporations he ran into the ground. America will be the 5th corporation he's in charge of.
___________________________________________________________

"Bush achieved a leisure landmark this month. The previous record for presidential slacking-off was 335 days. On August 18, Bush surpassed that number of days off, and he still has more than three years left in his second term.

Britain's Financial Times newspaper has dubbed Bush "the best-rested president in U.S. history."

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=16460


Well, I think it's a given that Bush admires Reagan, who, if memory serves, also liked to kick back. Of course, Reagan was an old man at the time...
Funny, I became an activist when Reagan came to office and I'm calling it quits with Bush. We lose, It's not worth it anymore.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 04:44 pm
There is NO vacation from the cares, duties and responsibilities of President and Commander-in-Chief. The burden of Office is ever present, no matter whether the venue is the Oval Office, deck of a fishing boat, or clearing brush on a farm in Texas. The President is "on stage" 24/7/365. He is watched and watched over like no other personality on the planet. Every word he speaks will be pored over, analyzed and twisted to meet the needs of the commentariate. The President can not call "time-out" from emergencies because he has head-cold, is tired, or has promised his wife a little private (ha!) time. The Office, especially in the early 21st century, is a killer like no other. Every single day, the President has to make life and death decisions based on incomplete information, and must thereafter bear the burden of any mistake or mis-step that leads to even a single death.

We would hope that the President, whoever he might be, will find some time for contemplation and consideration of long range planning. The only possible time that might happen is during his "vacation" from Washington. Does President Bush spend time pondering policy? We hope so, but maybe not. Thank goodness, that is above my grade and rate.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 04:52 pm
Asherman, your respect for the office of the Presidency is evident and admirable. I wonder, though, if that respect is blinding to you to the actions of the actual president, in this case Bush.

Becoming president doesn't automatically make the man a noble being...
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 05:09 pm
I don't think I'm blinded to President Bush's obvious failings. He isn't my idea of brilliant, but we've had other Presidents who were no more intelligent. His ability to speak is certainly quaint, but I believe he speaks his mind. President Truman wasn't known for his eloquence either, yet he was in my opinion one of the greats. JFK was pretty and popular, but in retrospect he wasn't all that good a President. Nixon may have been the only President to willfully violate his oath, but he was one hell of a good President in foreign affairs. Ford couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time, but he was a good man and probably the best we could hope for under the circumstances of the time. Carter was saintly, but ineffective. Bush is accused of being a stubborn rustic unwilling to bow to the popular will; the same was said of Lincoln and Andrew Jackson.

The fact of the matter is that George W. Bush is the elected President of the United States and is charged with making hard choices regarding international affairs and the command of the military. He is the People's choice and representative, but his duty lies even higher ... to protect and defend the nation and Constitution agains all enemies, foreign or domestic. Anyone who expects any man to execute the duties and responsiblities of President without making mistakes, has no appreciation for the imperfection of humans, or the demands of the Office. Only the passage of a lot of time will reveal how "well" or "ill" this President performed his duties. We'll just have to wait and see ... well, I suppose that some fine objective histories might be written in my Great-grandchildren's time.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 05:55 pm
you lost me at elected.... and no, I will never let it go so save it....
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glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 05:59 pm
My brain froze up after "quaint".
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Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 07:25 pm
Re: Could Gore have f*cked us anywhere near as bad as Bush h
kickycan wrote:
. What a complete f*ck up our president is.



And that's on his good days!

Gore would have to turn into a total embicile to do anywhere near the damage that Chicken george has done. A little time travel would come in handy here wouldn't it? Send the birdbrain man & this thugs back to the good old west days for a jolly good hanging.
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 07:26 pm
Asherman, You are delusional. I just want to let you know just in case you ever want to do anything about it.
0 Replies
 
Magginkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 07:34 pm
Asherman wrote:
Nixon may have been the only President to willfully violate his oath, but he was one hell of a good President in foreign affairs.


The fact of the matter is that George W. Bush is the elected President of the United States and is charged with making hard choices regarding international affairs and the command of the military. He is the People's choice and representative, but his duty lies even higher ... to protect and defend the nation and Constitution agains all enemies, foreign or domestic.



Asherman,
I think you must be totally blind to reality as well as to the short comings of one cowardly george bu$h. For starters, I think History will show that this school yard bully, bumbling, incompetent, election stealing, thieving, lying man was never elected to any office, probably not even as governor of TX.! He most certainly was never the people's choice, unless you are only talking about the SC 5 and his thieving buddies.

How can you look at this brazen liar and claim that Nixon was the only one to willfully violate his oath of office. George bu$h has violated that oath so many times that I wonder if any living human can keep track of all his crimes & violations. In my opinion george bu$h is the most despicable man alive today, bar none and that includes Saddam & others of his ilk.

Amigo is 1000% correct when he says you are delusional and that is putting it mildly!
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 08:06 pm
You wouldn't be just a wee bit biased, would you? Are you sure you haven't left out a few accusations and insults? I think you've hit most of them. Wait. Wait, you did. You forgot that Bush planned, financed and ordered 9/11 ... probably to help out the Elders of Zion in their effort to conquer the world. Now, how could you overlook such an obvious failing. Was that an innocent oversight on your part, or were you being generous?

Trying to respond to such blind prejudice and hatred is hopeless.
0 Replies
 
 

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