1
   

Should the USA Annex Mexico?

 
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 02:17 pm
Quote:
A Brilliant Proposal to Deal with Car Theft

Filed under: Public Announcements
Public Announcements
His Majesty thinks that it's about time that Congress adopts a responsible, reasonable and realistic approach to the scourge of vehicular theft or, as we prefer to call it, undocumented possession of an automobile.

For too long, we've ignored this problem, creating criminals out of hard-working undocumented drivers and with very little to show for it. Indeed, for the last decade or so, about 1,200,000 undocumented drivers have been reported every year with absolutely no signs of the number going down.

That's 12,000,000 undocumented drivers over a period of 10 years!

Obviously, there is no realistic way that our prison systems can accommodate 12,000,000 undocumented drivers, as some extremist pedestrophobes have suggested. And, of course, that would mean that we'd have to catch them all in the first place, which I think that it's pretty obvious that we can't.

Besides, as a nation of highly mobile people living in a vast area where transportation is vitally important, it goes completely against the values upon which we founded this society of ours to adopt such draconian measures against undocumented drivers who, let's face it, just want a piece of the American Dream, feeling the wind in their hair as they race down the Interstate.

Where would this nation be were it not for enterprising, free-roaming spirits contributing to the economy by going from place to place, gathering their paycheck at work and then spending it at the local grocery store? How can we, as a nation, possibly defend criminalizing those wonderful proponents of the American Way whose only "crime" is disregarding the property rights of the car owner?

So I propose that Congress, sooner rather than later, gather to decriminalize undocumented possession of an automobile. Under my program, undocumented drivers will be allowed to drive unattended automobiles that nobody wants to drive at the moment anyway and, after a three year period of driving responsibly, will be given the title to the vehicle in question.

Irresponsible, extremist, hateful and plainly un-American critics have suggested that this is unfair to those who've worked hard to gain documented possession of an automobile or even that such a program will discourage purchase of cars and encourage undocumented driving. To them I say… Well, I'm going to say something, as soon as I can come up with a brilliant retort. Rest assured, however, that it'll include the words "racist", "elitist", "snob", "pedestrophobe", "totalitarian" and "doo-doo head", not necessarily in that order.

Furthermore, we must immediately abandon the vigilante "Neighborhood Watches" who've created unnecessary tension and friction by constantly getting in the face of prospective undocumented drivers. Also, vehicles must be left unlocked with the keys in the ignition at all times, lest an undocumented driver cuts himself while gaining entry through a broken window. Not to mention the obvious health hazard, should this force him to drive in his undocumented car during inclement weather conditions.

With this visionary program, I foresee that car theft will become a thing of the past in short order.

Next, we'll deal with the 100,000 reported cases of forcible rape every year or, as we like to call it, "undocumented marital bliss."

You can thank me later.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 05:58 pm
Stupid and Shameful JP.

Considering that the cars were given to these drivers because the "legitimate" drivers didn't want to drive them...

Don't you think legislation that will break up families is a bit harsh?

I find comparing immigrants (illegal or not) to rapists to be more than a bit offensive.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 06:46 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Stupid and Shameful JP.


What, my facetious article or this ridiculous statement:

Quote:
Considering that the cars were given to these drivers because the "legitimate" drivers didn't want to drive them...


ebrown_p wrote:
Don't you think legislation that will break up families is a bit harsh?


Harsh??? I suppose so and would be willing to discuss options. On the other hand, I don't think that getting married and having kids should absolve you of your crimes.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 07:04 pm
I have to weigh in at least once on all of these inhuman anti threads, to state that nobody has the right to stop them. Screw the stupid laws that try to bar them.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 08:40 pm
JP,

Their "crimes" involve either overstaying a visa, or crossing a border. This is hardly comparable to rape.

That they have commited this heinous crime doesn't change the fact that they are human beings.

How about a little understanding ?

Try to put yourself in their shoes. Are you saying that there is never a situation that you would break a law? As I have been pointing out, there is a chance that you are a citizen now because your ancestors were willing to break immigration law.

I understand your point about "illegal" A law has been broken. I hope you understand that the law is broken because of political pressures to keep immigration to impossibly low levels, and that Americans (the alleged victims of this crime) are both complicit, and benefit from it.

I am sympathetic to Edgar's point, but I am also a political realist.I will accept a reasonable law that is humane and doesn't treat human beings in a harsh and vindictive manner.

So JP, I put the ball in your court. I offered a solution-- the McCain-Kennedy bill which levies a fine (as a penalty for breaking the law) and calls for greater enforcement both in the workplace and the border. But it also meets the needs of business and, most importantly, treats human beings with dignity and respect (in spite of their terrifically horrible crime of trespassing).

So what solution do you offer?

Are you, like our buddy CJ advocating mass deportations?

This will mean great hardship to people, both citizens and non-citizens. It will take kids who have spent their entire life here and are culturally as American as you or I, and thrust them into a country that is foreign to them. It will break up families separating mothers from their children.

It seems like even a law-abiding citizen like yourself should be able to support the McCain-Kennedy bill-- if you have any compassion for your fellow human beings... Personally, I put people ahead of laws, but this is just my Christian upbringing.

But I have made my position clear and have offered a workable solution.

What is your solution?
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 09:58 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Their "crimes" involve either overstaying a visa, or crossing a border. This is hardly comparable to rape.

That they have commited this heinous crime doesn't change the fact that they are human beings.


No it is not comparable to rape. It is still illegal though. I'm not sure why stating over and over again that they are human beings changes anything. I believe that all crimes are commited by human beings.

ebrown_p wrote:
How about a little understanding ?

Try to put yourself in their shoes. Are you saying that there is never a situation that you would break a law? As I have been pointing out, there is a chance that you are a citizen now because your ancestors were willing to break immigration law.


I'm sure there are some situations I may break a law. However, if I willingly break a law I wouldn't expect to be pardoned because 1.) I am human nad 2.) the crime I commited isn't rape.

They have a choice to come over legally, like my ancestors from Germany did, or they can come over illegally. If they come here legally they have a right to stay here. If they come over illegally we have a right to enforce our immigration laws no matter what edgar says.

ebrown_p wrote:
I understand your point about "illegal" A law has been broken. I hope you understand that the law is broken because of political pressures to keep immigration to impossibly low levels, and that Americans (the alleged victims of this crime) are both complicit, and benefit from it.


I have already admitted that the current laws are broken. Right now there is no motivation to come here legally when it is easier to do it illegally. I am fine with making it easier to come to this country legally. That way we know who is coming in (at least more than the current level of knowing), they come here legally and get a SS number just like everyone else, and contribute in a worthwhile manner.

Making it harder to come here illegally helps funnel immigrants through the legal channel, gives us the above stated benefits and helps us keep out criminals (the hardened kind) that will not make it through the legal channels.

I don't think there is anything inhumane about that at all.

ebrown_p wrote:
I am sympathetic to Edgar's point, but I am also a political realist.I will accept a reasonable law that is humane and doesn't treat human beings in a harsh and vindictive manner.


Like what?

ebrown_p wrote:
So JP, I put the ball in your court. I offered a solution-- the McCain-Kennedy bill which levies a fine (as a penalty for breaking the law) and calls for greater enforcement both in the workplace and the border. But it also meets the needs of business and, most importantly, treats human beings with dignity and respect (in spite of their terrifically horrible crime of trespassing).

So what solution do you offer?


I don't think that the McCain bill does enough to stem the tide of illegal aliens. In fact, I think it sweetens the pot for them by telling them as long as they make it here they are good to go.


ebrown_p wrote:
Are you, like our buddy CJ advocating mass deportations?

This will mean great hardship to people, both citizens and non-citizens. It will take kids who have spent their entire life here and are culturally as American as you or I, and thrust them into a country that is foreign to them. It will break up families separating mothers from their children.


I think that just because they are already here shouldn't make them eligible to stay. If you want to offer amnesty (which is what I consider this bill) at the very least do it on a case by case basis instead of a blanket program. Kids born in this country are citezens and have the right to stay. If their dad and or mom gets deported they have the choice to stay here or go with them.

ebrown_p wrote:
It seems like even a law-abiding citizen like yourself should be able to support the McCain-Kennedy bill-- if you have any compassion for your fellow human beings... Personally, I put people ahead of laws, but this is just my Christian upbringing.

But I have made my position clear and have offered a workable solution.

What is your solution?


I'm not christian and you really start to lose me when you start playing this whole "you must be a cold-hearted person if you can't treat people with compassion" routine. It gets old and should not be used as a blanket policy. Take it on a case by case basis. Those that don't meet our minimum requirements should be deported.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:05 pm
Most people haven't noticed it yet, but Mexico is planning to annex the US.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:39 pm
JP,

Dealing with things on a "case by case" basis is not a solution--I can't imagine this will possibly be fair (unless each case is decided by the same infallible judge).

My argument is a personal one,

Let me tell you about an illegal family that I know very well.

The husband is a white American citizen whose family has been here for generations. The wife is an undocumented immigrant. She has a daughter from a previous marriage (i.e. not a citizen) who been in the US since infancy. She is as American a kid as you can know-- no one who knows her would guess she is not a citizen. Together they have a year old son.

Lawyers have told them not to try for citizenship since the risk of failure is too great (this is true for many immigrant families since it is much more difficult to be legalized than you would imagine.


Now technically, you would be correct to say that Paulina (I am changing the names for obvious reasons) broke the law. Jackie, her teenaged daughter, also has no legal right to be here.

But think about what would happen if Paulina and Jackie were deported. The US citizen father would have a hell of a decision-- between his country and his family, and they would have to decide what to do with their infant son. Do you separate mother from son, or do you effectively tell the father he can no longer live in his country.

The situation is also affected by the reasons that Paulina came in the first place. It is a personal story that I respect. It is also important that Paulina has paid taxes and is loved and by her clients (she is self-employed).

Funny thing.... people who you and CJ call "illegal" are very nice people who work hard are loved by their neighbors and give to their community. Most people in our social circle know about their status, and are very supportive.

I take it personally when you reduce people I care about to "illegal" and even suggest harsh and vindictive measures that will destroy their lives and hurt our community.

Immigrants aren't the scary nameless threats people on your side make them out to be. They are real people with millions of real stories who are dealing with adversity the same way you and I would.

Yet the goal is to make their lives as miserable as possible. Jackie is an honor-roll student who is now being discouraged from attending college. Neither can get a liscence to drive. They are forced to live in the shadows, And the desire is to make things worse.

You will excuse me if I consider it cold-hearted to even suggest deporting people who have assimilated, live decent lives, have struggled and overcome and are part of our community.

I understand the legalistic argument you are making.

But treating the people here with compassion and decency is far more important than a harsh legalism.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:41 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Most people haven't noticed it yet, but Mexico is planning to annex the US.


I thought that it was the UN that is planning to annex the US. Or was it the Jewish bakers....

(mmmmm cookies......)
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:43 pm
Mighty big rallies against cracking down lately.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:45 pm
Si Amigo...

El pueblo, unido
Jamas sera vencido!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Mar, 2006 10:51 pm
It may have been some rumors that I heard about one year ago. I was told that we have more Mexicans in California and everybody else are in the minority.

ebrown, Your example is very good; I would think the best immigration laws would let families like the one in your example stay in the US if they have not broken any other laws.

I have a problem with illegal aliens getting preference over those people trying to become citizens of this country through the legal process.

Beyond that, I have no qalms about hard working people that do not break other laws and are just working hard to make a living. There must be some compromise between the workers and some method to allow them citizenship through a process that doesn't jump over people trying to become citizens the legal way.

I believe any extreme is bad for everybody.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 06:16 am
Thank you CI. I think you understand that I am not singling out this family (although I did choose an especially sympathetic example).

Every person has a story-- it is very easy to judge an abstract "illegal" people. When you get to know a person individually, it changes everything. Of course, when you get to it... each person is an indivudual. That is why this issue is complex. I understand my position is not perfect since it is true that laws are broken, and the issue of fairness to people waiting is a valid point..

You are looking for a compromise position--

The McCain-Kennedy bill and the bill passed by the Senate Judiciary commitee is that compromise position. It does both, tightening enforcement for business and providing resources and controls to secure the border... and it provides a way for people whose only crime is crossing a border to become legal.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 06:21 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Kids born in this country are citezens and have the right to stay. If their dad and or mom gets deported they have the choice to stay here or go with them.

Some serious lack of basic human decency here.

Like
ebrown_p wrote:
It will take kids who have spent their entire life here and are culturally as American as you or I, and thrust them into a country that is foreign to them. [Or] It will break up families separating mothers from their children.


Yes - it is plain indecent to want to throw kids who've never done anything wrong themselves, who were born in the US, are fully American, might be in school here, whose friends are all here and who very likely have never even been to Mexico, out into a country where they're foreign -- or face having to be separated from their own mother and father.

And yes, I'm sure that having this pointed out will seem to be "getting old" for jp. People who say or do indecent things usually dont like being told about it much. But there it is.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 07:04 am
nimh wrote:
Some serious lack of basic human decency here.


There are indeed some reasons why the USA never ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child - besides the only other country, Somalia, I mean.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 08:28 am
eb,

I don't see the point in discussing this any further. I am willing to discuss options but you will be satisfied with nothing less then amnesty for all and I think this is a dangerous policy. You are arguing with your heart and not your mind.

While the majority of illegal immigrants probably are hard working decent people with a milion different stories you are deluding yourself if you don't think there are bad people coming in with the good. This doesn't even take into consideration the drain in schools, hospitals and other social service programs.

So I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 08:41 am
nimh wrote:

Some serious lack of basic human decency here.


Get off your high horse nimh.


ebrown_p wrote:
It will take kids who have spent their entire life here and are culturally as American as you or I, and thrust them into a country that is foreign to them. [Or] It will break up families separating mothers from their children.


nimh wrote:
Yes - it is plain indecent to want to throw kids who've never done anything wrong themselves, who were born in the US, are fully American, might be in school here, whose friends are all here and who very likely have never even been to Mexico, out into a country where they're foreign -- or face having to be separated from their own mother and father.

And yes, I'm sure that having this pointed out will seem to be "getting old" for jp. People who say or do indecent things usually dont like being told about it much. But there it is.


This is a silly ridiculous argument. You people and your fantasy view of utopia are seriously deluded. It sounds great to say "everyone should be treated with compassion" and I'm sure it helps you all fall asleep at night. To bad we live in the real world and sometimes bad things happen.

You have a choice to come here legally or illegally. If you choose illegally you may have to face the consequences of getting caught. I am even willing to work with these people but a blanket policy of amnesty is stupid, ignorant and dangerous. So if you get caught... to bad, so sad.

This silly argument about thrusting poor innocent kids in an unfamiliar world is equally ridiculous. Their parents obviously lived in an unfamiliar world when they left behind their country and came here illegally... I don't see why the kids would have anymore difficult a time going the reverse direction. Parents move and kids go with them all the time. Kids are taken from their schools and moved cities, counties, states or countries away every single day and as far as I know they all survive quite well.

So again... stop deluding yourself, get off your high horse and try living in reality for once.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 09:25 am
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 09:56 am
Yeah CJ.

I saw that too. It made me chuckle and gave me a warm nostalgic feeling.

They said almost the exact same thing about the African-Americans in the civil rights marches-- some 40 years ago.

Of course these things are organized.

The fact we are organizing immigrants both legal and illegal with labor, and families and business and American who care is important for us to accomplish the decent tratment of all.

As the slogan goes: "United we Stand".
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Mar, 2006 10:00 am
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
You have a choice to come here legally or illegally. If you choose illegally you may have to face the consequences of getting caught. I am even willing to work with these people but a blanket policy of amnesty is stupid, ignorant and dangerous. So if you get caught... to bad, so sad.


I see. So then, you thought Reagan's amnesty plan was a bad idea. You shouted your opposition from the rooftops then, we can assume? Were you a vocal and strident opponent of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 01/24/2025 at 04:21:17