1
   

Victory in Iraq is OURS!!!

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 11:43 am
So has it already been determined whether the Iraqis are better off now?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 11:46 am
Some are, some aren't.

Does that answer your question?
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 11:47 am
old europe
Quote:
So has it already been determined whether the Iraqis are better off now?


There is one way of finding out, send them off to Gitmo.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 11:49 am
McGentrix wrote:
Some are, some aren't.

Does that answer your question?


Quite. Thanks, McG.
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 01:26 pm
I know a man who's family lives in Iraq. He says you'd be hard pressed to find a single Iraqi citizen who is better off now.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 01:37 pm
Joe Lieberman disagrees.

Our Troops Must Stay
America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.

BY JOE LIEBERMAN
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.

Progress is visible and practical. In the Kurdish North, there is continuing security and growing prosperity. The primarily Shiite South remains largely free of terrorism, receives much more electric power and other public services than it did under Saddam, and is experiencing greater economic activity. The Sunni triangle, geographically defined by Baghdad to the east, Tikrit to the north and Ramadi to the west, is where most of the terrorist enemy attacks occur. And yet here, too, there is progress.

There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way toward a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern. The terrorists are intent on stopping this by instigating a civil war to produce the chaos that will allow Iraq to replace Afghanistan as the base for their fanatical war-making. We are fighting on the side of the 27 million because the outcome of this war is critically important to the security and freedom of America. If the terrorists win, they will be emboldened to strike us directly again and to further undermine the growing stability and progress in the Middle East, which has long been a major American national and economic security priority.

Before going to Iraq last week, I visited Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been the only genuine democracy in the region, but it is now getting some welcome company from the Iraqis and Palestinians who are in the midst of robust national legislative election campaigns, the Lebanese who have risen up in proud self-determination after the Hariri assassination to eject their Syrian occupiers (the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hezbollah militias should be next), and the Kuwaitis, Egyptians and Saudis who have taken steps to open up their governments more broadly to their people. In my meeting with the thoughtful prime minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, he declared with justifiable pride that his country now has the most open, democratic political system in the Arab world. He is right.

In the face of terrorist threats and escalating violence, eight million Iraqis voted for their interim national government in January, almost 10 million participated in the referendum on their new constitution in October, and even more than that are expected to vote in the elections for a full-term government on Dec. 15. Every time the 27 million Iraqis have been given the chance since Saddam was overthrown, they have voted for self-government and hope over the violence and hatred the 10,000 terrorists offer them. Most encouraging has been the behavior of the Sunni community, which, when disappointed by the proposed constitution, registered to vote and went to the polls instead of taking up arms and going to the streets. Last week, I was thrilled to see a vigorous political campaign, and a large number of independent television stations and newspapers covering it.

None of these remarkable changes would have happened without the coalition forces led by the U.S. And, I am convinced, almost all of the progress in Iraq and throughout the Middle East will be lost if those forces are withdrawn faster than the Iraqi military is capable of securing the country.

The leaders of Iraq's duly elected government understand this, and they asked me for reassurance about America's commitment. The question is whether the American people and enough of their representatives in Congress from both parties understand this. I am disappointed by Democrats who are more focused on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November's elections, than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead.

Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.

The leaders of America's military and diplomatic forces in Iraq, Gen. George Casey and Ambassador Zal Khalilzad, have a clear and compelling vision of our mission there. It is to create the environment in which Iraqi democracy, security and prosperity can take hold and the Iraqis themselves can defend their political progress against those 10,000 terrorists who would take it from them.

Does America have a good plan for doing this, a strategy for victory in Iraq? Yes we do. And it is important to make it clear to the American people that the plan has not remained stubbornly still but has changed over the years. Mistakes, some of them big, were made after Saddam was removed, and no one who supports the war should hesitate to admit that; but we have learned from those mistakes and, in characteristic American fashion, from what has worked and not worked on the ground. The administration's recent use of the banner "clear, hold and build" accurately describes the strategy as I saw it being implemented last week.

We are now embedding a core of coalition forces in every Iraqi fighting unit, which makes each unit more effective and acts as a multiplier of our forces. Progress in "clearing" and "holding" is being made. The Sixth Infantry Division of the Iraqi Security Forces now controls and polices more than one-third of Baghdad on its own. Coalition and Iraqi forces have together cleared the previously terrorist-controlled cities of Fallujah, Mosul and Tal Afar, and most of the border with Syria. Those areas are now being "held" secure by the Iraqi military themselves. Iraqi and coalition forces are jointly carrying out a mission to clear Ramadi, now the most dangerous city in Al-Anbar province at the west end of the Sunni Triangle.

Nationwide, American military leaders estimate that about one-third of the approximately 100,000 members of the Iraqi military are able to "lead the fight" themselves with logistical support from the U.S., and that that number should double by next year. If that happens, American military forces could begin a drawdown in numbers proportional to the increasing self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces in 2006. If all goes well, I believe we can have a much smaller American military presence there by the end of 2006 or in 2007, but it is also likely that our presence will need to be significant in Iraq or nearby for years to come.

The economic reconstruction of Iraq has gone slower than it should have, and too much money has been wasted or stolen. Ambassador Khalilzad is now implementing reform that has worked in Afghanistan--Provincial Reconstruction Teams, composed of American economic and political experts, working in partnership in each of Iraq's 18 provinces with its elected leadership, civil service and the private sector. That is the "build" part of the "clear, hold and build" strategy, and so is the work American and international teams are doing to professionalize national and provincial governmental agencies in Iraq.

These are new ideas that are working and changing the reality on the ground, which is undoubtedly why the Iraqi people are optimistic about their future--and why the American people should be, too.

I cannot say enough about the U.S. Army and Marines who are carrying most of the fight for us in Iraq. They are courageous, smart, effective, innovative, very honorable and very proud. After a Thanksgiving meal with a great group of Marines at Camp Fallujah in western Iraq, I asked their commander whether the morale of his troops had been hurt by the growing public dissent in America over the war in Iraq. His answer was insightful, instructive and inspirational: "I would guess that if the opposition and division at home go on a lot longer and get a lot deeper it might have some effect, but, Senator, my Marines are motivated by their devotion to each other and the cause, not by political debates."

Thank you, General. That is a powerful, needed message for the rest of America and its political leadership at this critical moment in our nation's history. Semper Fi.

Mr. Lieberman is a Democratic senator from Connecticut.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 02:52 pm
Blast Destroys Dome of Shiite Shrine

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/02/21/international/i224552S06.DTL

Quote:
A large explosion destroyed the golden dome of one of Iraq's most famous Shiite religious shrines in Samarra early Wednesday, the U.S. military said, sending protesters pouring into the streets.


Police believed there were victims buried under the debris but had no immediate casualty figures.


Only a blithering idiot thinks this is all going to work out like a big, wonderful, regionwide Democracy with cooperation and Happy Happy thoughts all through the Middle East!! I would say that George Bush certainly qualifies as that IDIOT!! I wonder if the rest of the boys in his administration EVER let him in on what is really going on!!

What a bloody National Embarrassment ... and it just keeps going on like a bad dream!

Anon
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 08:29 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

He gassed his own people!!!


Yes. To be more specific, he gassed his own people that were in league with that other person of the triumvirate axishead of evil, IRAN.

For its part, the US would rather MOAB these people instead.

I guess one can argue that MOABING is better than GASSING.

He intentionally killed everyone in an entire town, including women and children - not by mistake, but by design. We never kill non-combatants on purpose. I guess the babies were in league with Iran too, right?


MOABs do not distinguish between those that are in league with Iran, and their children.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Feb, 2006 08:33 pm
nimh wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

He gassed his own people!!!


Yes. To be more specific, he gassed his own people that were in league with that other person of the triumvirate axishead of evil, IRAN.

The Kurds were in league with Iran?

Rolling Eyes


Iraqi Kurdish rebels had the support of Iran since the Kurdish rebelion of 1974-1975. Iraqi Kurdish guerrillas, namely the PUK which was formed after the fall of the rebelion, allied with Iranian troops held control of Halabja during the war.

It is that town that Saddam gassed.

If anything, your animated gif image sure is cute.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 06:44 am
Roxxxanne wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Are the people of Iraq better off today than they were under Saddam?

Probably, and if they're not, the fault can be laid at the feet of the insurgents.


There wouldn't be insurgents if the US were not occupying the country. Your logic is circular.

My logic is not circular, although you don't appear to know what the term means. The fact that an enemy fights back hard, doesn't constitute proof that you shouldn't have taken him on. Furthermore, no one is forcing the insurgents to intentionally bomb non-combatants. We don't target non-combatants by design.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 06:48 am
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

He gassed his own people!!!


We never kill non-combatants on purpose. I guess the babies were in league with Iran too, right?


No, all our cluster bombs are precisely targeted.
Our depleted uranium is not a problem- for us
When we smashed up Fallujah, we told the civilans to leave- if they had somewhere to go. Only then did we blow them up.

We are the good guys, remember?

I hope you don't equate morally the age old practice of only targetting combatants, but inevitably hurting some civilians, with the practice of intentionally trying to kill non-combatants including babies.


This is bull**** and the sad thing is, you appear to believe it.

What I am talking about is the pursuit if a military goal (even when it becomes apparent that none is attainable) with complete disregard of any civilians who might be in the way.

To take only one point, since you mention babies: have you seen the stats for birth defects, and the photographs, in Iraq attributable to the use of depleted uranium ordnance?

To return to the subject you started with your above quotation, attacking only combatants, but inevitably killing some civilians by accident is not morally equivalent to intentionally trying to kill non-combatants, and I pity anyone who doesn't see a large moral distinction.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 06:52 am
au1929 wrote:
Brandon, Mcg.
Do you still believe that the invasion of Iraq was a necessary action.

Based on what was known then about Hussein's history with WMD, it was absolutely necessary, since a mad dictator cannot be trusted with doomsday weapons.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 06:55 am
old europe wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Are the people of Iraq better off today than they were under Saddam?

Probably, and if they're not, the fault can be laid at the feet of the insurgents.


Sure. You can't blame the invading force for loosing control over the country after having done away with Saddam's version of "law and order".

It actually came from nowhere. Nobody urged Rumsfeld to send more troops, and nobody ever argued that the post-invasion phase should have been planned for.

Nevermind.

If a plainclothes policeman in a bank tries to stop a robbery in progress and the bank robber starts shooting the people in the bank on purpose, the plainclothes policeman is not at fault. And, just to quash the expected imbecilic remarks, I am not equating the two scenarios beyond making the point that we can't be held responsible for what the insurgents do.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 06:58 am
Wilso wrote:
NickFun wrote:
Brandon, things were not so bad under Saddam for most folks. They had free health care, free schools, including college and homelessness did not exist. Thanks to us there are a million homeless, the schools are gone and no health care. These are things we don't read about here in the states.


Please don't damage the conservatives' fantasy world. They've got so little to hold onto.

Hold onto this. Had Hussein still been hiding his WMD as in the past, but just more cleverly, millions could later have died as a result. Anyone who doesn't try to defuse a ticking time bomb is a fool.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 07:02 am
InfraBlue wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

He gassed his own people!!!


Yes. To be more specific, he gassed his own people that were in league with that other person of the triumvirate axishead of evil, IRAN.

For its part, the US would rather MOAB these people instead.

I guess one can argue that MOABING is better than GASSING.

He intentionally killed everyone in an entire town, including women and children - not by mistake, but by design. We never kill non-combatants on purpose. I guess the babies were in league with Iran too, right?


MOABs do not distinguish between those that are in league with Iran, and their children.

Pathetically, you see no distinction between Hussein intentionally killing every living thing in a town, and us killing some civilians by mistake as has occurred in every war since the dawn of time.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 07:04 am
NickFun wrote:
I know a man who's family lives in Iraq. He says you'd be hard pressed to find a single Iraqi citizen who is better off now.

Not because we haven't tried very hard to rebuild their country into a free democracy, but because the insurgents have been so effective in opposing it.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 07:06 am
old europe wrote:
So has it already been determined whether the Iraqis are better off now?

We didn't invade Iraq for the purpose of making the Iraqis better off, although we cerainly looked forward to that as a fringe benefit.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 07:10 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

He gassed his own people!!!


We never kill non-combatants on purpose. I guess the babies were in league with Iran too, right?


No, all our cluster bombs are precisely targeted.
Our depleted uranium is not a problem- for us
When we smashed up Fallujah, we told the civilans to leave- if they had somewhere to go. Only then did we blow them up.

We are the good guys, remember?

I hope you don't equate morally the age old practice of only targetting combatants, but inevitably hurting some civilians, with the practice of intentionally trying to kill non-combatants including babies.


This is bull**** and the sad thing is, you appear to believe it.

What I am talking about is the pursuit if a military goal (even when it becomes apparent that none is attainable) with complete disregard of any civilians who might be in the way.

To take only one point, since you mention babies: have you seen the stats for birth defects, and the photographs, in Iraq attributable to the use of depleted uranium ordnance?

To return to the subject you started with your above quotation, attacking only combatants, but inevitably killing some civilians by accident is not morally equivalent to intentionally trying to kill non-combatants, and I pity anyone who doesn't see a large moral distinction.


You should save your pity for more deserving cases.
You have misrepresented what I wrote here, yet its meaning is clear.
"What I am talking about is the pursuit of a military goal with complete disregard of any civilians who might be in the way".

Your moral high ground is actually a fetid swamp.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 07:12 am
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
McTag wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

He gassed his own people!!!


We never kill non-combatants on purpose. I guess the babies were in league with Iran too, right?


No, all our cluster bombs are precisely targeted.
Our depleted uranium is not a problem- for us
When we smashed up Fallujah, we told the civilans to leave- if they had somewhere to go. Only then did we blow them up.

We are the good guys, remember?

I hope you don't equate morally the age old practice of only targetting combatants, but inevitably hurting some civilians, with the practice of intentionally trying to kill non-combatants including babies.


This is bull**** and the sad thing is, you appear to believe it.

What I am talking about is the pursuit if a military goal (even when it becomes apparent that none is attainable) with complete disregard of any civilians who might be in the way.

To take only one point, since you mention babies: have you seen the stats for birth defects, and the photographs, in Iraq attributable to the use of depleted uranium ordnance?

To return to the subject you started with your above quotation, attacking only combatants, but inevitably killing some civilians by accident is not morally equivalent to intentionally trying to kill non-combatants, and I pity anyone who doesn't see a large moral distinction.


You should save your pity for more deserving cases.
You have misrepresented what I wrote here, yet its meaning is clear.
"What I am talking about is the pursuit of a military goal with complete disregard of any civilians who might be in the way".

Your moral high ground is actually a fetid swamp.

Would you care to provide evidence that there has been less regard for civilians in this war than, for instance, in WW2?
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Feb, 2006 07:15 am
Let's take it back a notch or two.

This isn't a war, it is an illegal invasion.
0 Replies
 
 

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