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Information control, or, How to get to Orwellian governance

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 07:56 pm
Rupert Murdoch, speaking at Davos...

Quote:
Asked if his News Corp. managed to shape the agenda on the war in Iraq, Murdoch said: "No, I don't think so. We tried." Asked by Rose for further comment, he said: "We basically supported the Bush policy in the Middle EastÂ…but we have been very critical of his execution."
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/04/rupert-murdoch-admits-manipulating-the-mediasurprisesurprise/

Think about this one. Murdoch says, "We..." ('we' being, of course, his corporation) "...tried."

So they set out with the intention of shaping the agenda, the policies, and the beliefs of the American government and citizenry - through the use of their pervasive media outlets in print, tv, radio and internet. They did not, by way of contrast, set out with the intention of informing. Shaping was it.

And this was, we'll note, not that they set out to shape or weaken a regulation perhaps damaging to the profit margin on refrigerators.

This was about war.

Sigh. It is amazing what will come out of even the most self-controlled meglomaniac's mouth. And it's amazing how many people out there buy it like they buy some ads hawking a certain regrigerator. Shaped, they are.

Libertarians, at least, get this. Will Safire's columns cogently arguing against media conglomeration deserved the laudatory reception they gained from a very odd assortment of groups. The only folks for continuing or increased ownership caps are the very well-lobbied corporations and some frightening portion of the ****-for-brains audience attending.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 08:04 pm
And...the one certain story that the media companies will NOT carry is the story that deals with the dangers of those media becoming larger and more consolidated. It's why you do not see it or hear it there other than the odd dulled whisper.

This one is damned important. blatham ringing bells and twisting the cat's tail.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 08:14 pm
Blatham, why did you not react to these quotes from Soros's books? Are they not evidence that Soros is devoted to redesigning America. Him and his partners buying the Democratic Party and as many Republicans as they can for their reported "$300 million donation" is one workable--albeit illegal--way for them to accomplish exactly that.

GEORGE SOROS wrote:
[In his 1995 book page145 Soros on Soros]
I do not accept the rules imposed by others. If I did, I would not be alive today. I am a law-abiding citizen, but I recognize that there are regimes that need to be opposed rather than accepted. And in periods of regime change, the normal rules don't apply. One needs to adjust one's behavior to the changing circumstances.

[In his 2000 book page 337 Open Society]
Usually it takes a crisis to prompt a meaningful change in direction.

[2003 edition of his book page 15 The Alchemy of Finance]
My greatest fear is that the Bush Doctrine will succeed--that Bush will crush the terrorists, tame the rogue states of the axis of evil, and usher in a golden age of American supremacy. American supremacy is flawed and bound to fail in the long run.

What I am afraid of is that the pursuit of American supremacy may be successful for a while because the United States in fact employs a dominant position in the world today.

[In his 2004 book page 159 The Bubble of American Supremacy ]
the principles of the Declaration of Independence are not self-evident truths but arrangements necessitated by our inherently imperfect understanding.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 08:17 pm
Blatham,

On what basis did you assume that Murdoch's papers were ever free of bias - even before he bought them? More to the point, on what basis do you assume that any news or commentary paper, magazine or media report is free of bias? Do you believe the New York Times or Post (or any other major newspaper) are free of deliberate bias? How about magazines such as The Atlantic Monthly, Harpers, The Nation, The Economist, or even the "Talk of the Town" section of the New Yorker???? All of these media outlets - and others as well (including NPR & TV) have a point of view that shapes their reporting, on editorial content, as well as the selection, emphasis and slant put on the stories they run. Murdoch is to be congratulated for his succinct candor. Contrast that with the self-congratulatory & smarmy crap the New York Times unfailingly puts out when it is self-assigned "journalistic integrity" is occasionally revealed for what it really is.

I suspect the only reason you criticise Murdoch is that you don't like his politics. That, of course is your right, but why don't you call it what it truly is, instead of pretending that he has violated some imaginary standard of objectivity.

We have freedom of the press in this country for a reason. It is available to all, including those who have views different from yours.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 04:55 am
blatham wrote:
Ican

You're lazy. You restrict your reading to sources which won't challenge your set of ideas because, I suppose, you prefer simple answers.

You, on the other hand, must be reading Bork's, Posner's, Irving Kristol's, and Buckley's books all the time. That must be the reason you always cite from them directly. It must also be why you never cite from summaries by Salon and New York Times journalists who don't like conservative books they summarize. Unlike Ican, you're up-to-date on your primary sources of conservatism, all of which you have read with your mind open to persuasion.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 08:40 am
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/853/birgitsgigglekr3.gif
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 10:19 am
Blatham doesn't understand that bias is great. Great as long as it isn't the government forcing us to pay for it. I love bias in the market. I love Walmart. Nobody is forcing me to buy from Walmart. Nobody is forcing me to listen to big media. Hey, the liberal media is just mad that not everybody is buying their garbage anymore, and that includes George Soros's garbage.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 10:23 am
Now, where did you get the '300 million' number, Ican?

Is it the amount of money raised by MoveOn that cycle?

You do know where the vast majority of that money came from, don't you?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 12:36 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Now, where did you get the '300 million' number, Ican?

Is it the amount of money raised by MoveOn that cycle?

You do know where the vast majority of that money came from, don't you?

Cycloptichorn

Alas, I don't know for certain--but then I don't know anything for certain except that: I know for certain that I don't know anything for certain.

Excerpted from Horowitz and Poe:
Soros: "My spending rose from $3 million in 1987 to more than $300 million a year by 1992."

"According to Political Money, $78 million of the money raised through pro-Democrat 527s during the 2004 election cycle came from just five donors:
George Soros - $27,080,105;
Peter Lewis - $23,997,220;
Stephen L. Bing - $13,952,682;
Herbert and Marion Sandler - $13,007,959."
Total - $78,037,966
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Feb, 2007 12:58 pm
We have John McCain and Feingold to thank for part of this problem. Strange bedfellows by the way.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 08:50 am
Thomas wrote:
blatham wrote:
Ican

You're lazy. You restrict your reading to sources which won't challenge your set of ideas because, I suppose, you prefer simple answers.

You, on the other hand, must be reading Bork's, Posner's, Irving Kristol's, and Buckley's books all the time. That must be the reason you always cite from them directly. It must also be why you never cite from summaries by Salon and New York Times journalists who don't like conservative books they summarize. Unlike Ican, you're up-to-date on your primary sources of conservatism, all of which you have read with your mind open to persuasion.


Pissed you off again, have I, thomas? I first read Buckley about thirty years ago and still read him once every two months or so. And I've read all the others you name - constituting many thousands of words - from primary sources. Your list could be considerably larger and that would still hold true. I'll loan you my Horowitz books should you request I sent them for your personal reading pleasure. Which ain't to say I've read nearly enough nor read broadly enough. You figure you are doing better at this or do you just find my earlier obvious disdain unappealing?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 11:05 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Blatham,

On what basis did you assume that Murdoch's papers were ever free of bias - even before he bought them? More to the point, on what basis do you assume that any news or commentary paper, magazine or media report is free of bias? Do you believe the New York Times or Post (or any other major newspaper) are free of deliberate bias? How about magazines such as The Atlantic Monthly, Harpers, The Nation, The Economist, or even the "Talk of the Town" section of the New Yorker???? All of these media outlets - and others as well (including NPR & TV) have a point of view that shapes their reporting, on editorial content, as well as the selection, emphasis and slant put on the stories they run. Murdoch is to be congratulated for his succinct candor. Contrast that with the self-congratulatory & smarmy crap the New York Times unfailingly puts out when it is self-assigned "journalistic integrity" is occasionally revealed for what it really is.

I suspect the only reason you criticise Murdoch is that you don't like his politics. That, of course is your right, but why don't you call it what it truly is, instead of pretending that he has violated some imaginary standard of objectivity.

We have freedom of the press in this country for a reason. It is available to all, including those who have views different from yours.


Is the only reason you weren't fond of Pravda because of its political ideas, george?

Any publication, like any individual, will have a set of considerations and preferences on matters political and social, of which they will be to some degree conscious and to some degree unaware. Therefore it clearly follows that all publications/media outlets are exactly like all others. And it must also surely follow that there is no rational basis for any sorts of limits on media ownership...it would be fine if deregulation (and wealth) permitted Murdoch or Soros to pick up all major tv networks in America. It also follows, obviously, that none of us need concern ourselves even in the slightest regarding any media outlet's investment in factual data gathering and reporting or the lack of it. One sentence is exactly like any other sentence. There is bias and that is all there is. Do I have you right here?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 11:21 am
ican wrote
Quote:
I have no reason to believe that the e-mail you posted is the same source Horowitz and Poe used. If you have reason to believe that it is from the same source Horowitz and Poe used, then explain your reason for believing that.


What you actually have is no reason to assume it is from anywhere else.

Perhaps you might explain why it doesn't seem to bother you if the source for the quote, excerpted by Horowitz, isn't provided for you by Horowitz.

Perhaps you might add to that explanation why, after I go to the trouble of digging up for you a (entirely credible) source for that quote, you figure some burden of proof lands on me, rather than yourself or Horowitz, neither of you bothering to do that but merely insisting that the Pariser sentence means what you wish it to mean.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 11:24 am
blatham wrote:
ican wrote
Quote:
I have no reason to believe that the e-mail you posted is the same source Horowitz and Poe used. If you have reason to believe that it is from the same source Horowitz and Poe used, then explain your reason for believing that.


What you actually have is no reason to assume it is from anywhere else.

Perhaps you might explain why it doesn't seem to bother you if the source for the quote, excerpted by Horowitz, isn't provided for you by Horowitz.

Perhaps you might add to that explanation why, after I go to the trouble of digging up for you a (entirely credible) source for that quote, you figure some burden of proof lands on me, rather than yourself or Horowitz, neither of you bothering to do that but merely insisting that the Pariser sentence means what you wish it to mean.


Well, Blatham, you don't seem to realize that when you type or speak, it's actually Soros typing or speaking through you. His psychic tentacles have invaded your whole being so subtly that you don't even realize it.

I mean, if we go with Ican's theory, once Soros gets ahold of you, there's no going back; he's a combination of Chthulu and Rasputin rolled into one.

Don't stare in the mirror for too long tonight - you might see the horrible truth behind your face!

Cycloptichorn Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 12:44 pm
blatham wrote:
Is the only reason you weren't fond of Pravda because of its political ideas, george?
That certainly covers most of it. Perhaps the only additional comment I would add is that it was the mouthpiece for a party that, as a matter of both doctrine and practice, allowed no other viewpoint or competing voice to be heard.

blatham wrote:
Any publication, like any individual, will have a set of considerations and preferences on matters political and social, of which they will be to some degree conscious and to some degree unaware. Therefore it clearly follows that all publications/media outlets are exactly like all others. And it must also surely follow that there is no rational basis for any sorts of limits on media ownership...it would be fine if deregulation (and wealth) permitted Murdoch or Soros to pick up all major tv networks in America. It also follows, obviously, that none of us need concern ourselves even in the slightest regarding any media outlet's investment in factual data gathering and reporting or the lack of it. One sentence is exactly like any other sentence. There is bias and that is all there is. Do I have you right here?


No. This is not at all my view. I believe there are significant differences easily detected among the various magazines and publications to which you refer - differences involving points of view; political philosophy; accuracy in reporting facts; quality of writing or presentation; and the degree to which they distinguish between fact and a priori belief in the material they sell. I don't accept what I read or hear in any of them as absolute truth - instead I regard it as a selection of material, shaped and selected in accordance with their prejudices, skills and target audience and delivered with varying degrees of skill and style. I don't think there is any possibility of improving that situation in a lasting way as long as it is operated by human beings.

It is for precisely that reason that I oppose any attempt to regulate or control the media to meet someone's preconceptions of what is "fair and balanced". I'm no Platonist, and I recognize no philosopher kings. The chief virtue of our present system is the competitive marketplace for ideas and belief. It reliably tends to cancel out the worst excesses of all sides. Though this system based on freedom and competition is far from perfect, any attempt to endow government with the power to regulate "firness" and "quality" would surely yield a far worse result -- as history amply demonstrates.

You seem to imply that we face the danger of monopolistic control of the media by Murdoch or other like figures, hateful to you. I believe that the facts suggest otherwise. The media in this country are now more varied in type (print, broadcast, cable, internet, film) than ever before and, more importantly the economic barriers to entry, particularly on the internet, have never been lower. Just a few decades ago information reporting in this country was in the hands of just three broadcast networks, each of which exercised substantial nationwide control of their outlets. Now there are four or five in a much more competitive situation. Newspapers generally have lost ground to other media venues, but they are still dominated by a few key papers (NY Times, Washington Post, WSJ, etc.). Murdoch is hardly the dominant player, even there. The internet space is open, very competitive, and gives voice to many at very low cost. Big Brother can hardly be heard above the din.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 01:11 pm
Blatham,
I believe you posted the e-mail that had this paragraph in it...

Quote:
In the last year, grassroots contributors like us gave more than $300 million to the Kerry campaign and the DNC, and proved that the Party doesn't need corporate cash to be competitive.2 Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back.


If you didnt post it,I apologize.

Now,I have a question about this part.
If Soros means that the "grassroots" have bought the party and own it,then which single issue group will run the party?

According to opensecrets.org,idealogy or single issue groups donated the vast majority of money recieved by the dem party in the last election cycle,by sector.

http://www.opensecrets.org/parties/sector.asp?Cmte=DPC

So,if so many single issue groups donated so much money,how are all of them going to get what they paid for from the dems?

Or,if you prefer,you can go to this page and select any industry from any sector and see what party got the most money from their various groups.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?cycle=2006&ind=T2100

For example,on this page you will see that according to the FEC,the dems recieved the majority of the money from lawyers and lobbyists.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?ind=K&cycle=2006

You can go to that page,click on industries in this sector or pick another sector to find out exactly who gave what to what party.

According to this page the dems have recieved the most money from lawyers and lobbyists every election cycle dating back to 1990.

So,the question remains...exactly WHO was George Soros talking about when he said..."Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back"

Who is WE?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 01:21 pm
Quote:
So,the question remains...exactly WHO was George Soros talking about when he said..."Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back"


Soros didn't mean a damn thing when we said this, because he didn't say it. Eli Parser said it.

Quote:
Who is WE?


In your case, a group of people who can't keep up with the conversation.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 01:24 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
So,the question remains...exactly WHO was George Soros talking about when he said..."Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back"


Soros didn't mean a damn thing when we said this, because he didn't say it. Eli Parser said it.

Quote:
Who is WE?


In your case, a group of people who can't keep up with the conversation.

Cycloptichorn


OK,I was wrong about who said it,but the question still remains...Who was he talking about?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 01:27 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
So,the question remains...exactly WHO was George Soros talking about when he said..."Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back"


Soros didn't mean a damn thing when we said this, because he didn't say it. Eli Parser said it.

Quote:
Who is WE?


In your case, a group of people who can't keep up with the conversation.

Cycloptichorn


OK,I was wrong about who said it,but the question still remains...Who was he talking about?


He was talking about the vast body of Democrats who aren't part of the Washington Money machine - Dems who want to see something more than the DLC-Republican-Lite model of how a Democratic party should act.

If you had bothered to do any research about Moveon.org, you would realize this, but it's easier to make a boogeyman out of things than it is to do research. Right?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 01:33 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
So,the question remains...exactly WHO was George Soros talking about when he said..."Now it's our Party: we bought it, we own it, and we're going to take it back"


Soros didn't mean a damn thing when we said this, because he didn't say it. Eli Parser said it.

Quote:
Who is WE?


In your case, a group of people who can't keep up with the conversation.

Cycloptichorn


OK,I was wrong about who said it,but the question still remains...Who was he talking about?


He was talking about the vast body of Democrats who aren't part of the Washington Money machine - Dems who want to see something more than the DLC-Republican-Lite model of how a Democratic party should act.

If you had bothered to do any research about Moveon.org, you would realize this, but it's easier to make a boogeyman out of things than it is to do research. Right?

Cycloptichorn


I'm not making a boogeyman out of anyone.
Since so many single issue groups donated money to the dems,and since they all want something for their money,someone will have to be left out.

So,what dem single issue group will control how the dems act and who will get nothing for the money they paid the dems?
0 Replies
 
 

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