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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 11:23 am
This doesn't provide compelling evidence to you, Ican, that the majority of Iraqis - granted, not the peace-loving Kurds - want us to leave?

Would you support a plan in which we draw back to the Kurdish region?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 11:31 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Would you support a plan in which we draw back to the Kurdish region?


Interesting report in the Economist recently (December 13 issue):
America between the Turks and Kurds
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 11:45 am
thanks for the interesting report , walter !

here is another report on the worries of a possible iraqi breakup :

"Turkish officials fear that should Iraq's central government collapse, the three Kurdish provinces of northern Iraq, with their own military and their own government, would become an autonomous nation - and a source of inspiration for Kurdish separatists. Officials in Syria and Iran, which also are home to large Kurdish populations, share that concern.


Already, Turkish officials said, PKK guerrillas are seeking refuge in northern Iraq between battles with Turkish troops. Local Iraqi authorities and U.S. troops have made little effort to detain or deter them, Turkish officials charge. Some complain that the U.S. won't let Turkish troops pursue PKK forces into northern Iraq, but allowed Israel to attack Hezbollah in Lebanon.


The boiling point could come as soon as next spring, when a PKK-declared cease-fire expires May 1. The Turkish military hasn't accepted the cease-fire, and its chief of staff, Gen. Yasar Buyukanit, has promised to "keep up the struggle against terrorism until not even a single armed terrorist is left."


"I don't want to think about what is to come when the cease-fire ends," said Mehmet Dalhan, the mayor of nearby Nusaybin and a member of the Kurdish Democratic Society, the PKK's political wing. "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
still , i have difficulties seeing a "united" iraq NOT being ruled by a dictator .
hbg

source :
...TURKEY FEARS BREAKUP OF IRAQ...
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 12:26 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
This doesn't provide compelling evidence to you, Ican, that the majority of Iraqis - granted, not the peace-loving Kurds - want us to leave?

Would you support a plan in which we draw back to the Kurdish region?

Cycloptichorn

Yes, it does "provide compelling [polling] evidence ... that the majority of Iraqis - granted, not the ... Kurds - want us to leave". Our currently failed effort to help protect the Iraqi people is adequate justification for their current opinions.

Nonetheless, I recommend we leave Iraq when the Iraq government asks us to leave.

I support a two part plan:
(1) We draw our overt forces out of the populated areas and place them on the Iraq borders to close those borders;
(2) We insert covert forces into the populated areas, and, with the approval of the Iraq government, risk killing Iraq goodguys while killing Iraq badguys.

I expect neither parts of my plan will be implemented. As soon as my expectation is verified, we should immediately prepare to depart in anticipation of the Iraqi government asking us to leave, while concurrently advising the Iraq governent to ask us to leave.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 12:28 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
This doesn't provide compelling evidence to you, Ican, that the majority of Iraqis - granted, not the peace-loving Kurds - want us to leave?

Would you support a plan in which we draw back to the Kurdish region?

Cycloptichorn

Yes, it does "provide compelling [polling] evidence ... that the majority of Iraqis - granted, not the ... Kurds - want us to leave". Our currently failed effort to help protect the Iraqi people is adequate justification for their current opinions.

Nonetheless, I recommend we leave Iraq when the Iraq government asks us to leave.

I support a two part plan
(1) We draw our overt forces out of the populated areas and place them on the Iraq borders to close those borders.
(2) We insert covert forces into the populated areas, and, with the approval of the Iraq government, risk killing Iraq goodguys while killing Iraq badguys.

I expect neither parts of my plan will be implemented. As soon as my expectation is verified, we should immediately prepare to depart in anticipation of the Iraqi government asking us to leave, while concurrently advising the Iraq governent to ask us to leave.


Since we know that your plan won't be implemented, can't we just skip to the leaving part?

I find it interesting that Iraq's "democracy" seems to be somewhat non-representative of the will of its' constitutents. But then, more than 60% of Americans want us out of Iraq as well, so it seems a common problem.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 01:24 pm
Only bush and malaki wants us to stay in Iraq. Let's make that about 99,600,000 to two. The "two" seems to be living in a place not in reality.

They both think they still have a "mandate."
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 06:28 pm
Quote:
URL: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12855294/national_affairs_the_2_trillion_dollar_war

Back to National Affairs: The $2 Trillion Dollar War

The $2 Trillion Dollar War
A leading economist says the true cost of Iraq is far higher than President Bush claims -- and America will pay the price for decades to come.
CHARLES M. YOUNG

When America invaded Iraq in 2003, the Bush administration predicted that the war would turn a profit, paying for itself with increased oil revenues. So far, though, Congress has spent more than $350 billion on the conflict, including the $50 billion appropriated for 2007.

But according to one of the world's leading economists, that is just a fraction of what Iraq will actually wind up costing American taxpayers. Joseph Stiglitz, winner of the Nobel Prize for economics, estimates the true cost of the war at$2.267 trillion. That includes the government's past and future spending for the war itself ($725 billion), health care and disability benefits for veterans ($127 billion), and hidden increases in defense spending ($160 billion). It also includes losses the economy will suffer from injured vets ($355 billion) and higher oil prices ($450 billion).

Stiglitz, a professor of economics at Columbia University, is just the guy to size up the war's financial consequences. He served as chief economist at the World Bank and chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors under President Clinton, and his book Globalization and Its Discontents has sold more than a million copies. Stiglitz sat down with Rolling Stone in New York to discuss the costs of Bush's misadventure in Iraq.

What's wrong with dropping a lot of money on the Iraq War? Didn't World War II pull America out of the Great Depression?
War is a lousy form of economic stimulus. The bang you get for the buck is very low. If we hadn't had to fight during the Depression, we would have become a much richer country by investing the money we spent on the war. Think of the Nepalese contractors doing work in Iraq. They spend their money in Iraq or Nepal -- not in America.

Because the war drove up oil prices, we are also giving more money to Saudi Arabia, Iran and Venezuela. It follows that we are not investing that money. And instead of spending the money we have left on things that will make us wealthier, we are spending it in ways that have just the opposite effect. I don't want to reduce this to cold, hard economics, but when you educate young people for twelve to eighteen years, you're investing a lot of money in them. If you then have them killed, maimed and debilitated, you destroy capital.

How did you arrive at the $2 trillion figure?
There were three parts to the calculations that I made with Linda Bilmes, a professor of public finance at Harvard. The first part is based on actual expenditures -- the impact on the federal budget. But the budget doesn't include a lot of expenditures we will be making in the future as a result of the war today, like paying for the health care and disability benefits of all the people who have been injured. These are lifetime expenditures, but they aren't included in the $600 million a year the Defense Department expects to spend on Iraq. They're just talking about the hardware of war.

The second part of our calculations estimates future expenditures to replace what we lose in the war. The budget includes spending for new ammunition, but not the wear and tear on weapons systems. Eventually the weapons must be replaced, but the administration doesn't count that as part of the projected cost of the war.

A third important category is a little more hidden. The defense budget has gone way up, beyond the money earmarked for Iraq. You have to ask why. It's not like the Cold War has broken out again. We infer that they are hiding a lot of the Iraq expenditures in the defense budget. We only attribute a small fraction of the increase to Iraq, but it would be hard to explain them any other way than the war.

You also examine the cost beyond the impact on the federal budget.
Yes. We look at where the budget underestimates the social cost of the war. Take disability pay. If you're wounded, the government pays you only twenty percent of what you would have earned if you could work. The disability payment is a budget cost, but the economy misses the salary you would have been making now that you're not able to do anything.

At least they saved taxpayers money on body armor.
Not really. Rumsfeld made the defense budget a little lower in the short term by not providing the troops with adequate body armor. But the government now has to pay for the care of vets with disabling brain and spine injuries -- and society loses what their contribution would have been had they been gainfully employed. It's a good illustration of how looking at the short-run number leads you to think the war isn't costing all that much. It's costing the government more, our society more and our veterans enormously more.

Another example of Rumsfeld's budgeting is the huge bonuses we're paying to get soldiers to re-enlist. He wanted to lessen the impact of the war on the military, so he used private contractors, who are more expensive. What he didn't realize was that he was setting up a competition that has driven up the price of a soldier. If someone who has served his enlistment has a choice of working as a contractor for $100,000 or in the military for $25,000, what's he going to do? Wages and bonuses had to go up. Maybe that's a good thing -- the regular military was being cheated, in a way. But it's another cost of the war that isn't figured into the budget.

So Bush's budget for the war is as out of touch with reality as his justifications for invading Iraq in the first place.
The administration is trying to sell the notion that they have repealed the laws of economics. They want us to believe that we don't have to choose between guns and butter -- that we can have them both. The reality is, the money spent on the war could have been spent on other things.

Such as?
One quarter of the war budget would have fixed Social Security for the next seventy-five years. George Bush says that Social Security is a major economic problem. If you believe him -- although there are many reasons not to believe him -- the war is four times worse as an economic problem.

With $2 trillion, we could have funded the entire world's commitment to foreign aid to poor countries for the next twenty years. Or just think what we could have done to stop global warming if we had spent that two trillion developing cheaper photovoltaic cells to convert solar energy into electricity. With our technological advantages, we could have had some real breakthroughs. We have the resources -- we just need to redirect them from destroying another country.

Will average Americans notice any economic fallout from the war?
We'll have a lower living standard than we otherwise would have achieved. The median American income is going down. Most of us are worse off than we were five or six years ago. Why are we getting poorer? This big pot of money we spent on the war obviously has something to do with it. Americans have a hard time seeing it when the numbers come out in dribs and drabs. But when it's $2 trillion? Did we really want to spend it like this? It's hard to think how we could have spent it worse.

Has Bush responded to your calculations?
To my knowledge, nobody in the administration has challenged our numbers. All they've said is that we didn't include the benefits of the war, which is true. There is no way to assess the benefits. There are some little savings we subtracted out, such as the no-fly zone over Iraq: We don't have to pay to patrol it any more, because there is nothing to enforce with Saddam out of power. But the administration can't exactly claim that they have brought peace, stability and democracy to the Middle East.

They also argue that they didn't go to war on the basis of green-eyeshade calculations. That's true, but they did do a calculation of the cost. They were just off. Like every other aspect of their analysis of this war, they were either deliberately misleading or incompetent.

Paul Wolfowitz actually claimed that the war would pay for itself with oil revenue.
You have to wonder: What reward should he receive for such acumen? Bush made him president of the World Bank.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 06:32 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Only bush and malaki wants us to stay in Iraq. Let's make that about 99,600,000 to two. The "two" seems to be living in a place not in reality.

They both think they still have a "mandate."


Now don't forget the future problem of Iraq; the Kurds. They want us there. As long as we do what they want we will be safe from them but if we go against them they will do to us what the Sunnis are doing to us now; kicking our ass.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 06:36 pm
Actually, Turkey and Syria are more worried about the Kurds than the rest of Iraq. Most of the sectarian violence is between the Sunnis and Shias.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 06:47 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

Since we know that your plan won't be implemented, can't we just skip to the leaving part?

I don't know my plan will not be implemented. I merely bet that my plan won't be implemented.

Skipping to "the leaving part" before we are asked to leave will promote an even greater disaster than leaving before Iraq's government is able to secure its people.


I find it interesting that Iraq's "democracy" seems to be somewhat non-representative of the will of its' constitutents. But then, more than 60% of Americans want us out of Iraq as well, so it seems a common problem.

Like our country's government, Iraq's government is not constructed to be a pure democracy in which the will of the majority rules. It is constructed to be a representative republic in which the will of elected representatives rule until replaced.

Historically, pure democracies have died rapidly, and while dying exploited and otherwise abused their minorities. It has usually taken longer for representative democracies to die from the same cause.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 06:48 pm
Here's an excerpt from Walter Hinteler's submission. It's a very good article and shows that if things are not bad enough now, they could get worse, not better, in the future.

Quote:
Iraq's Kurds disliked the Study Group's suggestion that Iraq's central government should tighten its control over Iraq's provinces. They hated a recommendation that a promised referendum on Iraq's disputed oil-rich province, Kirkuk, be postponed. And they were horrified by the report's call for America to improve relations with Syria and Iran, which have both long suppressed Kurdish nationalism.


Quote:
"It's no longer a matter of if they [the Turks] invade but how America responds when they do," says a seasoned NATO military observer. America would be loth to let the Iraqi Kurds help their PKK kinsmen fight back, since Turkey is a cherished NATO ally and a pivotal Muslim state in the region. Turkey's airbase at Incirlik, in southern Turkey, is a hub for non-combat materiel flown in for American and allied troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.


http://www.economist.com/images/20061216/CMA945.gif

If we support Turkey, as we most probably will, will we get a new enemy in Iraq? Do we need a new enemy in Iraq?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Dec, 2006 07:22 pm
Turkey Warns of Widening Conflict in Iraq
By Sonja Pace
Istanbul
30 November 2006

Pace report - Download 636k
Listen to Pace report


U.S. President George Bush went out of his way Thursday to show Washington's support for the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki as the two men held talks in Jordan on ways to stem the violence in Iraq. The meeting took place amid growing frustration within the United States over U.S. involvement in the war, and warnings by Jordan's King Abdullah the unrest could spread throughout the Middle East. Those concerns are shared in nearby Turkey, as VOA's Sonja Pace reports from Istanbul.


Recep Tayyip Erdogan , 21 Nov. 2006
Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayip Erdogan told lawmakers from his political party this week, a dangerous game of escalation is being played out in the Middle East. He added that, if the fire is not stopped soon, it would engulf the whole region.

In particular, the prime minister warned against a division of Iraq, noting that would be the beginning of a huge disaster.

Turkey has watched nervously as war and sectarian violence have engulfed its neighbor. But, what worries Turkey even more is the possibility that Iraq might split into three sectarian units - Sunni, Shi'ite and Kurdish. In particular, the specter of a Kurdish autonomous region, or an eventual independent state on Turkey's border raises alarm.

Kurds are a substantial minority in Turkey - an estimated 15 million of them live mostly in the impoverished southeastern portion of the country. From the mid-1980s, the government fought an all-out war with separatist Kurdish guerrillas for some 15 years, and separatist violence still flares up. Almost any actions, or even statements by Kurdish activists are seen as a threat to the Turkish state.

Istanbul-based Turkish writer and columnist Mustafa Akyol has written extensively about the Kurdish issue, and tells VOA, what happens with the Kurds in neighboring northern Iraq matters very much to Turkey.

"Most Turks think, if there is a Kurdish state in northern Iraq, it will, in a kind of domino theory, influence our own Kurds, and our own Kurds will want to join with them, and, then, we will be losing Turkey's southeastern part, and, there will be a greater Kurdistan, and, Turkey will be losing its territory," he said.

The Kurds are an ancient people in the region and an estimated 20-30 million live today in Turkey, parts of Iraq, Iran and Syria, with smaller communities elsewhere. Promises of an independent homeland after World War I, were never fulfilled. Kurdish uprisings were often brutally put down, most notably in Iraq during the so-called Anfal campaign that prosecutors say killed more than 180,000 Iraqi Kurds in 1987 and 1988, including some 5,000 Kurdish men, women and children killed with chemical weapons in the town of Halabja.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 11:23 am
Shiite Clerics' Rivalry Deepens In Fragile Iraq

By Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, December 21, 2006; A01



BAGHDAD -- In the quest to create a new Iraq, two powerful clerics compete for domination, one from within the government, the other from its shadows.

Both wear the black turban signifying their descent from the prophet Muhammad. They have fought each other since the days their fathers vied to lead Iraq's majority Shiites. They hold no official positions, but their parties each control 30 seats in the parliament. And they both lead militias that are widely alleged to run death squads.

But in the view of the Bush administration, Abdul Aziz al-Hakim is a moderate and Moqtada al-Sadr is an extremist. As the U.S. president faces mounting pressure to reshape his Iraq policy, administration officials say they are pursuing a Hakim-led moderate coalition of Shiites, Sunnis and Kurdish parties in order to isolate extremists, in particular Sadr.

Hakim, who once verbally attacked U.S. policy, now senses a political opportunity and is softening his stance toward the Americans. Sadr's position is hardening. Young and aggressive, he has suspended his participation in Iraq's government and is intensifying his demands for U.S. troops to leave the country.

Their rivalry is rising as the moderating influence of Iraq's most revered Shiite figure, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, is fading on the streets of Baghdad and is being replaced by allegiance to militant clerics such as Sadr, according to Iraqi officials and analysts.

They question whether Hakim can counter Sadr's growing street power without worsening the chaos. As President Bush ponders limited alternatives in forging a new approach in Iraq, some wonder whether the United States is overestimating Hakim's ability.

The U.S. embrace of Hakim "will deepen their rivalry," said Mahmoud Othman, an independent Kurdish legislator. "And it will deepen the rifts between the United States and the Sadrists."

Across Baghdad, as the fourth year of war nears an end, many Iraqis are asking one question: Can their prime minister, Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite politician backed by Sadr, balance U.S. demands to distance himself from the cleric and move their country forward?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 11:27 am
At play in Iran's backyard
September 17, 2006

IRAQI PRIME Minister Nouri al-Maliki's two-day state visit to Iran last week was an occasion for sealing deals on oil extraction and commerce in petroleum products. It also marked Maliki's return to the country where he spent part of his exile during the reign of Saddam Hussein. But above all, Maliki's trip to Iran underlined the enormity of the geopolitical transformation that President Bush wrought when, by toppling Saddam, he tumbled Iraq into Iran's sphere of influence.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 02:55 pm
Heyk, look! Not all is bleak in Iraq.

In what might be called the mother of all surprises, Iraq's economy is growing strong, even booming in places.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 03:33 pm
McTag wrote:


Eight US marines have been charged over the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha last year.
Four are accused of murder and four others are charged with attempting to cover up the incident
BBC report
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 10:01 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McTag wrote:


Eight US marines have been charged over the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha last year.
Four are accused of murder and four others are charged with attempting to cover up the incident
BBC report

Crying or Very sad Shame on those Marines. They returned fire indiscriminately after their fellow marine was blown in half by a badguy. They need and should have sought counseling.

They should have first sent the badguy a telegram requesting that he either give himself up, identify himself, or at least stop using non-killers as his shield. Then if that request failed, the marines should have petitioned the UN to pass a resolution to request the badguy to stop using non-killers as his shield. Then if that failed, as a last resort before firing on the inhabitants of the building containing the badguy, they should have asked the BBC to intercede on their behalf. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:24 am
This should be of no surprise; Bush was told by the CIA prior to the invasion that Saddam Hussein had no WMD. But Bush lied to the people of America.

Quote:


http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/23/60-minutes-cia-official-reveals-bush-cheney-rice-were-personally-told-iraq-had-no-wmd-in-fall-2002
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 06:28 am
ican711nm wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McTag wrote:


Eight US marines have been charged over the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in the town of Haditha last year.
Four are accused of murder and four others are charged with attempting to cover up the incident
BBC report

Crying or Very sad Shame on those Marines. They returned fire indiscriminately after their fellow marine was blown in half by a badguy. They need and should have sought counseling.

They should have first sent the badguy a telegram requesting that he either give himself up, identify himself, or at least stop using non-killers as his shield. Then if that request failed, the marines should have petitioned the UN to pass a resolution to request the badguy to stop using non-killers as his shield. Then if that failed, as a last resort before firing on the inhabitants of the building containing the badguy, they should have asked the BBC to intercede on their behalf. Embarrassed


Quote:
The 24 Iraqi civilians killed on Nov. 19 included children and the women who were trying to shield them, witnesses told a Washington Post special correspondent in Haditha this week and U.S. investigators said in Washington. The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html

You know something ican, you would have made a good guard in a Nazi concentration camp.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 12:08 pm
xingu, I remember what Tenet told the big four about no WMDs in Iraq, but when Bush pressed Tenet, he said something like "it's a slam dunk."

That gave Bush the go-ahead with his war plans.
0 Replies
 
 

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