THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

could it possible be any worse than the current situation ?

Your failure lies in your persistance in comparing the Iraq situation to other situations which are fundamentally different.

Badguys murdering goodguys, whoever they may be, possesses a commonality of intolerability that transcends space, time, and government.

Let me rewrite something you said to make it more accurate:

Quote:

Making everyone equally secure is an example of another problem that does not have to be solved. In fact, trying to solve that problem will more likely make everyone equally in danger. Ultimately, it would be better to enable everyone to be self-reliant in their pursuit of security. Such guys would be too busy pursuing their own happiness to murder other guys.

Excellent!

I'll emphasize my enthusiastic agreement: Ultimately, it would be better to enable everyone to be self-reliant in their pursuit of security.

I think the only way to "enable everyone to be self-reliant in their pursuit of security" is to help them establish [governments] which can "enable [themselves] to be self-reliant in their pursuit of security". That is exactly what I propose we try to do for the Iraqis:
Help [Iraqis] establish a government which can "enable [itself] to be self-reliant in [its] pursuit of security [for Iraqis]."

All goodguys require each other to help each other when their security is threatened by badguys.

I propose that we tell the Iraqis that they have exactly zero time left to decide whether or not the country named 'Iraq' will continue to exist. If they can't come together to make the decision, then it will cease to exist, and no amount of frantic action on our part will keep it together.

"Zero time left to decide" Your previous rewrite of my statement contradicts all you proposed here.

Cycloptichorn

cyclo :
do you think that the shiites and sunnis must be forced to live in a "united" iraq ?
and what do we tell the kurds who have already started their own "country" - of sorts . they don't seem to have any intention of joining a "united" iraq .
i listened to former u.s. ambassador peter galbraith recently , who stated that when flying into kurdistan an iraqi visa is not required . he also stated that there is now an "actual border" - with a formal bordercontrol -between kurdistan and the rump of iraq .
i also noticed with interest that austrian airlines has started regular flights to kurdistan .
hbg

Remember: There are about 27 million Iraqis; About 12 million risked their lives to vote for their current government; They have about 6 million children among them. By their vote at the risk of their lives, almost a year ago, they clearly decided they want the country named 'Iraq' to continue to exist.

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The implication is vividly clear: You think the victims of these crimes have the responsibility to stop them.

They have the responsibility to try. They need to take some sort of positive action to do so. It isn't good enough to wait around for others to solve the problem.

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What if they can't?

What if they can? At least they will have made the attempt. The alternative is certain to fail; we can see it happening right now.

cyclo :
do you think that the shiites and sunnis must be forced to live in a "united" iraq ?
and what do we tell the kurds who have already started their own "country" - of sorts . they don't seem to have any intention of joining a "united" iraq .

Pentagon: Sadr now main Iraq problem
WASHINGTON, Dec. 19 (UPI) -- Al-Qaida in Iraq has been replaced by Moqtada Sadr's Mehdi Army as the most dangerous group fueling sectarian violence, a U.S. Pentagon report says.

The quarterly military assessment also said along with the Mehdi Army, the Badr Organization, another armed Shiite militant group is crucial in supporting the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, CNN reported.

The report said the Mehdi Army in particular "exerts significant influence in Baghdad and the southern provinces of Iraq and on the government of Iraq."

The military commanders said sectarian militias also had influence among police in Baghdad and sometimes "facilitated freedom of movement and provided advance warning of upcoming operations."

From mid-August to mid-November, the report said insurgent attacks jumped 22 percent, and while 70 percent of them targeted U.S. and allied troops, "the overwhelming majority of casualties were suffered by Iraqis," the report said.

Just in case you won't believe it:

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 19, 2006
Blair Iraq war support 'a debacle'

The foreign police of Tony Blair, the British prime minister, has failed because of his inability to influence Washington and his successor must carve out a leading role for Britain within Europe instead, a UK think-tank has said.

The Chatham House report said on Tuesday in a wide-ranging analysis of Blair's foreign policy that he was the first to recognise how the United States would react to the September 11 attacks, but made a huge mistake in backing its war on Iraq.

"Terrible mistake"
The report said Blair's support for the US-led invasion of Iraq was a "terrible mistake" leading to a "debacle" that will have repercussions on policy for years.

It said: "The root failure [of Blair's foreign policy] has been the inability to influence the Bush administration in any significant way despite the sacrifice - military, political and financial - that the United Kingdom has made."

Chatham House also said that the British prime minister had been unable to prevent Britain's standing in the Middle East from sliding.

The report also said Blair had been slow to realise the consequences of a Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan on the back of drug-trafficking.

It said this was "unforgivable given the link between heroin consumption on British streets and the strengthening of warlordism in Afghanistan".

Lord Wallace, former director of studies at Chatham House, told Al Jazeera's Inside Story programme that the UK did not wield influence over the US as popular perception is led to believe.

"There is a lot of myth about how special our relationship is with the US. We shouldn't assume that we are more special than Washington's other allies," he said.

On Blair's recent visit to the Middle East, Lord Wallace, said: "It would have been a much more effective trip if Blair was visiting the Middle East representing Europe rather than being seen as the mouth piece of George Bush [the US president]."

European relationship
The report concluded that Blair's successor must forge a closer relationship with Europe.

The report said: "What US governments want is an EU that can make a real contribution to the international political and security agenda, and any European government with the diplomatic skills to deliver EU support will be hugely appreciated."

Doctor Michael Williams of the Royal United Services Institution told Al Jazeera: "Britian playing a bigger role in the EU would aid the US.

"We have all seen that a multi-lateral approach as in Europe than a bi-lateral approach is much more successful in peacekeeping and reconstruction missions."

Volker Heise of the German Institute for International Affairs told Al Jazeera: "The UK has to recognise the foreign policy role of Europe. The EU is not a single nation, there are many opinions. This can be helpful, for example, in Iraq.

"Britain, France and Germany managed to keep a dialogue going with Iran when the US was trying to block it."

Margaret Beckett, the British foreign secretary, said that the report was "ridiculously wrong."

"The notion that we don't have any influence [in the Middle East], or that we don't have any influence in the European Union, or that we don't have any influence in the United States ... is just not true," she said in a BBC radio interview.

"When it comes to the governments, the negotiators, the people who are trying to do deals, the people who are trying to bring things together ... Tony Blair's influence continues to be substantial."

Chatham House, also known as the Royal Institute of International Affairs, is a London-based independent organisation specialising in analysing international issues and current affairs.

I'm guessing you're unaware Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of brave souls that did that very thing, the last time we pledged assistance only to abandoned them?

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I'm guessing you're unaware Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of brave souls that did that very thing, the last time we pledged assistance only to abandoned them?

What you seem to fail to grasp is that more than a majority of Iraqi citizens want us to abandon them.

revel wrote:

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I'm guessing you're unaware Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of brave souls that did that very thing, the last time we pledged assistance only to abandoned them?

What you seem to fail to grasp is that more than a majority of Iraqi citizens want us to abandon them.

nonsense.

McGentrix wrote:

revel wrote:

Quote:

I'm guessing you're unaware Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of brave souls that did that very thing, the last time we pledged assistance only to abandoned them?

What you seem to fail to grasp is that more than a majority of Iraqi citizens want us to abandon them.

nonsense.

Most Iraqis Favor Immediate U.S. Pullout, Polls Show

Israel Did it! When in doubt, shout about Israel.
By Victor Davis Hanson National Review on Line

These are strange times.

Perennially beleaguered Israel, for instance, was hit all summer long
with rockets from Lebanon and Gaza, as the world watched and kept
score in an absurd new game of proportionality: Israel was to be
blamed because its hundreds of air strikes against combatants were
lethal, while Hezbollah was to be excused for shooting off thousands
of rockets aimed at civilians because of its relative incompetence.

This week Iran hosted an international conference on Holocaust denial.
The gathering was as bizarre as a bar out of Star Wars, a collection
of every crackpot anti-Semite the world over, all there for a
scripted, tightly controlled hatefest advertised as a "free" exchange
of ideas unknown in Europe.

Jimmy Carter, silent about Iran's latest promotion for its planned
holocaust, is hawking his latest book -- in typical fashion, sorta,
kinda alleging that the Israelis are like the South Africans in
perpetuating an apartheid state, that they are cruel to many
Christians, and, as occupiers, are understandably the targets of
suicide bombers and other terrorist killers. Sadly, all that shields
this wrinkled-browed, lip-biting moralist from complete infamy is
sympathy for a man bewildered in his dotage.

Meanwhile, some members of the Iraqi Study Group apparently think that
since Israel's neocon surrogates got us into Iraq, their puppet master
must pay the price for getting us out. Thus, Israel must give up the
Golan Heights, or perhaps the West Bank, since that would make the
Islamic nations so collectively happy that they would join us in
ridding Iraq of the terrorists whom many of these nations have
subsidized, trained, and sheltered.

The surprise is no longer that the cretin Mahmoud Ahmadinejad calls
for the destruction of Israel, but only that his serial threats have
still not become banal. In any language, there can be only so many
synonyms and idioms for "wipe-out" and "vanish," yet Ahmadinejad
always finds some fresh way to express his fundamental desire.

In Washington, realists are back, and they have a point: Israel really
does remain at the heart of the furor of the Middle East -- just not in
the way they suppose.

It is not "stolen" land, or "Zionist" killings, or Jewish "aggression"
that gnaws at the Arab Street. And the solution is therefore not to be
found in short-term Israeli land-concessions, but only in the now
caricatured and apparently waning policy of supporting democratic
reform inside the Middle East.

Why?

The real problem is that Israeli success ,and the resulting sense of
failure in the surrounding Arab world, fuels much of the rabid hatred.
Many of us have been writing exactly that for years and have been
dubbed novices -- and worse -- who don't understand the complex
undercurrents of the Middle East. In January 2004, for example, I
suggested in passing the following on these pages:

Instead, [Israel] stoked the fury arising from Arabs' sense of
weakness and self-contemp t. In the world of the Palestinian lobster
bucket, Israel's great sin is not bellicosity or aggression, but
succeeding beyond the wildest dreams of its neighbors. How humiliating
it must be to be incapable of even muttering the word "Israel" (hence
the need for "Zionist entity"), but nevertheless preferring an Israeli
to a Palestinian ID card.

To suggest primordial envy as a cause of the present conundrum is to
be written off as a reductionist by the realists and Arabists of the
State Department.

Most instead insist that the return of the Golan Heights and the West Bank would at last inaugurate the missing peace in a way the unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon and Gaza so far have not.

As with the writings and rantings of bin Laden and Dr. Zawahiri, these
experts should perhaps listen to what is actually being said by the
prominent Palestinians themselves --not what we keep thinking they
should say.

They might examine, for instance, an excerpt from the recent
statements of the Palestinian-born Al-Jazeera editor-in-chief, Ahmed
Sheikh, who granted an interview this month with Pierre Heumann, the
Middle East correspondent of the Swiss weekly Die Weltwoche. He is not
a mere propagandist, but a keen and influential observer of the
current Arab temperament.

Sheikh: In many Arab states, the middle class is disappearing. The
rich get richer and the poor get still poorer. Look at the schools in
Jordan, Egypt or Morocco: You have up to 70 youngsters crammed
together in a single classroom. How can a teacher do his job in such
circumstances? The public hospitals are also in a hopeless condition.
These are just examples. They show how hopeless the situation is for
us in the Middle East.

Heumann: Who is responsible for the situation?

Sheikh: The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the most
important reasons why these crises and problems continue to simmer.
The day when Israel was founded created the basis for our problems.
The West should finally come to understand this. Everything would be
much calmer if the Palestinians were given their rights.

Heumann: Do you mean to say that if Israel did not exist, there
would suddenly be democracy in Egypt, that the schools in Morocco
would be better, that the public clinics in Jordan would function
better?

Sheikh: I think so.

Heumann: Can you please explain to me what the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict has to do with these problems?

Sheikh: The Palestinian cause is central for Arab thinking.

Heumann: In the end, is it a matter of feelings of self-esteem?

Sheikh: Exactly. It's because we always lose to Israel. It gnaws
at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel,
with only about 7 million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with
its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian
problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West's problem is that it
does not understand this.

How strange that Mr. Sheikh, if for the wrong reasons, has
inadvertently echoed the neoconservative thesis that only with
fundamental reform will come Arab prosperity -- a progress that in turn
will bolster the "collective ego" enough for Arabs to forget an Israel
that seems to "gnaw" at the Middle East.

Elsewhere in the interview Ahmed Sheikh, who enjoys a prominent role
in forming recent public opinion throughout the Arab world, is largely
prescient about the West's misunderstanding of the "genes of every
Arab." As we see with the latest return of the surrealists to foreign
policy influence, we surely do not understand the depths or causes of
Arab and Muslim psychological exasperation with Israel.

Thus Jim Baker & Co. or a Jimmy Carter apparently assumes that Ahmed
Sheikh's dreamlike Arab version of middle class tax cuts, No Child
Left Behind, or Open Enrollments for HMOs will usher peace to the
region if only Israel would concede what its enemies demand or
disappear entirely.

This is utter nonsense, precisely because Arab detestation of Israel
is a symptom, not the malady, of the current Arab crisis of the
spirit. Ahmed Sheikh himself stumbles onto that truth. To gain the
necessary maturity and self-confidence that would mitigate
scapegoating Israel, the Arab Middle East would have to make vast
structural changes in traditional Islamic society that would usher in
freedom, prosperity, and security.

In other words, new Arab consensual societies would have to create the
sort of landscape that they see elsewhere in Europe, Asia, North
America, and Israel when they turn on their satellite TVs and browse
the internet -- and also understand that such success came from within,
not merely from foreign aid or the accidental discovery of oil beneath
their feet.

And what would that landscape look like?

Something along the lines of what the West has been attempting in both
Afghanistan and Iraq: freedom of the press, alliance to the state
rather than to the tribe, constitutional government, tolerance for
diverse opinion and belief, equality of the sexes, an open economy,
and government transparency to ensure the protection of capital and
investment.

Meet even a partial list of all that, and soon an economy would
prosper without oil; schools would teach knowledge rather than hatred,
bias, and religious superstition; and clinics might have their own
competently trained and equipped medical personnel.

Palestine really is the touchstone of the Middle East, insofar as it
is a valuable window into the minds and hearts of Middle Easterners.
The sources of Arab anger about Israel should remind us of the need
both to keep pressuring Middle East governments to reform and to
continue trying to stabilize Iraq in hopes that something can emerge
there different from the theocracy to its south, the autocracy to its
west, and the monarchies to its east.

Finally, there is yet another irony to Mr. Sheikh's lamentations
(which we will apparently soon be privileged to hear, when al Jazeera
goes live in English throughout the West): Where alone in the Middle
East is there his dream of an Arab middle class of sorts? Where do
Arabs have good schools? And where is there adequate medical care?

Ask the over one million Palestinians who live in a democratic Israel.

- Victor Davis Hanson is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution. He
is the author, most recently, of A War Like No Other. How the
Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War.