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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 04:53 pm
OBJECTIVE I.
Get the Iraqi jihadists (I call 'em ICT) to the point were they perceive they have failed.

1. Initiate an unrestrained covert and overt war on the ICT in Iraq.

a. covert war:
..... i. announce this covert war to the Iraqi people;
..... ii. use terrifying, humiliating, fatiguing, discomforting, and kind,
.......... interrogation of prisoners to learn locations in Iraq where
.......... the ICT and its ordnance are being harbored;
..... iii. request Iraqi non-combatants report these locations in
.......... Iraq where the ICT and its ordnance are being harbored;
..... iv. transfer Iraqi non-combatants from the neighborhoods of
.......... these locations to safer locations;
..... v. exterminate the ICT in these locations by destroying those
.......... locations including their neighborhoods.

b. Overt War
..... i. close Iraq's borders using as necessary conventional
.......... weapons and when necessary tactical nuclear
.......... weapons.
..... ii. require prior identification (e.g., fingerprints, photos,
.......... DNA, etc.) and express approval by our military for
.......... anyone to enter iraq from any of its neighbors.
..... iii. establish and defend protection zones which are
.......... systematically enlarged as they can be adequately
.......... protected.
..... iv. Defend the higher priority infrastructures first and
.......... then systematically increase that which is protected.


I'll supply the rest of this outline if and when someone requests it.

OBJECTIVE I.
Get the Iraqi jihadists (I call 'em ICT) to the point were they perceive they have failed.

1. Initiate an unrestrained covert and overt war on the ICT in Iraq.
2. Incarcerate captured ICT without trial until hostilities have ended.
3. Convince a large majority of the American people that the survival of
their posterity requires them to unite behind this effort.

OBJECTIVE II.
Help the Iraqi people lose their sense of powerlessness.
1. Hire Iraqi people to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure.
2. Hire Iraqi people to protect the rebuilding of their infrastructure.
3. Convince a large majority of the Iraqi people that the survival of their
posterity requires them to unite behind these efforts.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 05:13 pm
Quote:
announce this covert war to the Iraqi people;


Um.

One of the first things you don't want to do in a covert war is announce it.

Joe(sort of messes up the covertness of it all)Nation
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 05:36 pm
Okay, I can start working my way down the list over this weekend with questions.

First,

Quote:

..... ii. use terrifying, humiliating, fatiguing, discomforting, and kind,
.......... interrogation of prisoners to learn locations in Iraq where
.......... the ICT and its ordnance are being harbored;


Are we going to be using 'terrifying, humiliating, fatiguing, discomforting, and kind,.......... interrogation' on those who haven't been charged with any crime? Just on whoever we feel like?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 06:51 pm
Joe Nation wrote:
Quote:
announce this covert war to the Iraqi people;


Um.

One of the first things you don't want to do in a covert war is announce it.

Joe(sort of messes up the covertness of it all)Nation

We want to announce this particular covert war in advance in order to offset the fear Iraqi non-combatants have of not cooperating with ICT with the fear we want Iraqi non-combatants to have of not cooperating with USA in the extermination of the ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 07:13 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
Are we going to be using 'terrifying, humiliating, fatiguing, discomforting, and kind,.......... interrogation' on those who haven't been charged with any crime? Just on whoever we feel like?

Cycloptichorn

NO!
We are going to be using 'terrifying, humiliating, fatiguing, discomforting, and kind interrogation' on those who are captured in battle whenever we think that will be productive.

None of these prisoners comply with the Geneva Convention because they have joined with the ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al) which among other things intentionally and deliberately kill non-combatants.

USA laws do not require prisoners of war (e.g., combatants, rebels, invaders) be charged with a crime before/while they are incarcerated and/or before/while they are interrogated.

Quote:
The Constitution of the United States of America
Effective as of March 4, 1789
...
Article I
...
Section 9.
...
The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

We shall suspend habeas corpus (e.g., charging a prisoner with a crime) in fighting the rebellion in and/or the invasion of Iraq by the ICT, because the Iraqi public safety requires it
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 07:18 pm
What about prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield? You are aware that there are quite a few of them.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Sep, 2006 05:06 am
Please don't complicate things. This is war. It's uncomplicated.

Joe(So GW Bush believes)Nation
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Sep, 2006 05:55 am
I think it has been quite clear lately that Afghanistan has been deteriorating. The Teliban is making a resurgence, there are more outside suicide bombers killing people and the Teliban now have a safe haven in Pakistan.

So what does our president say about Afghanistan?

Quote:
Bush Cites Progress in Pakistan, Afghanistan
In Speech, President Tries to Mend Relations

By Michael A. Fletcher
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 30, 2006; A06

President Bush highlighted anti-terrorism efforts of Afghanistan and Pakistan yesterday, calling the nations invaluable allies despite a surge of violence in southern Afghanistan that has provoked deep suspicions about their ability -- and appetite -- to battle extremists.

Speaking before a Washington audience that included members of the Reserve Officers Association and both countries' ambassadors to the United States, Bush said that 41,000 American and NATO troops in Afghanistan are making progress toward securing and rebuilding the war-torn nation, although significant hurdles remain. While more than 30,000 newly trained Afghan soldiers are working alongside Western troops to secure the country, Bush said, Afghan police "have faced problems with corruption and substandard leadership."

Those difficulties have undermined confidence in the police, "and we've made our concerns known to our friends in the Afghan government," Bush said, adding that the police now have new leadership.

Bush made his remarks as a resurgent Taliban is leading a spike in violence in southern Afghanistan, a development that has resulted in increasing friction between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Afghan President Hamid Karzai has accused his Pakistani counterpart, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, of tolerating the presence of extremists in Pakistan's remote western regions, from where they launch attacks into southern Afghanistan. Musharraf, in turn, has accused Karzai of being an ineffective leader whose policies create sympathy for the Taliban and other extremists.
SOURCE

Kind of sounds like Lyndon Johnson telling the American public how we were winning the war in Vietnam. With leaders like George Bush we'll be winning this current war for the next twenty years.

Interesting little item about Pakistan's intelligence agency. From the same source as above;
Quote:
Meanwhile, Musharraf has been dogged by accusations that his nation's intelligence service has ties to the Taliban -- something he has forcefully denied.


And this just out;

Quote:
Police in India Say Pakistan's Spy Agency Planned Train Blasts
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 6:53 a.m. ET

MUMBAI, India (AP) -- Pakistan's spy agency masterminded the July 11 train bombings that killed more than 200 people in the Indian city of Mumbai, the top police officer in charge of the investigation alleged Saturday.

Tariq Azi, Pakistan's minister of state for information, denied the claim.

''We reject this allegation, and demand that India should provide us any evidence, if they have,'' Azi told The Associated Press.

Mumbai police Commissioner A.N. Roy said the attacks were planned by the spy agency and carried out by Pakistan-based Islamic militant group, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, assisted by the Students Islamic Movement of India, a banned Islamic group.

Addressing a news conference to announce the completion of the investigation, Roy said 15 people had been arrested, including 11 Pakistanis.

Roy said Pakistan's Directorate of Inter Services Intelligence, or ISI, the country's top spy agency, began planning the attacks in March and later provided training to those who carried out the bombings in Bahawalpur, Pakistan.

Pakistan has in the past denied any involvement in the attacks and it was not immediately clear what implications the revelations would have on the fragile peace process between the nuclear-armed neighbors.

Roy gave a detailed description of how the explosives were transported into India and by whom. He also described how the bombs were packed into pressure cookers and placed on the trains.

Seven bombs ripped through suburban trains in Mumbai, India's financial and entertainment capital, killing at least 207 people and injured another 700. Mumbai was formerly known as Bombay.

Lashkar-e-Tayyaba is one of the Islamic groups fighting since 1989 for Kashmir's independence from India or its merger with Pakistan. More than 68,000 people have been killed in the conflict.

SOURCE
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Sep, 2006 06:01 am
Quote:
Iraqi Police Cited in Abuses May Lose Aid

SOURCE

Makes one wonder, where did the Shiite Iraqi police learn all of these torture techniques, from Saddam Hussein or the United States?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Sep, 2006 07:06 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield? You are aware that there are quite a few of them.

Cycloptichorn


Ex-Prisoners, Red Cross Cite Flawed Arrests, Denial of Rights

Quote:
BAGHDAD, May 10 -- Problems in the U.S.-run detention system in Iraq extended beyond physical mistreatment in prison cellblocks, involving thousands of arrests without evidence of wrongdoing and abuse of suspects starting from the moment of detention, according to former prisoners, Iraqi lawyers, human rights advocates and the International Committee for the Red Cross.

U.S.-led forces routinely rounded up Iraqis and then denied or restricted their rights under the Geneva Conventions during months of confinement, including rights to legal representation and family visits, the sources said.

In a report in February, the Red Cross stated that some military intelligence officers estimated that 70 percent to 90 percent of "the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake." Of the 43,000 Iraqis who have been imprisoned at some point during the occupation, only about 600 have been referred to Iraqi authorities for prosecution, according to U.S. officials.

The Red Cross study, posted Monday on the Wall Street Journal's Web site, concludes that the arrest and detention practices employed by U.S.-led forces in Iraq "are prohibited under International Humanitarian Law."


Quote:
Common Article 2, which limits its own application to any armed conflict between signatories and provides that signatories must abide by all terms of the Conventions even if another party to the conflict is a nonsignatory, so long as the nonsignatory "accepts and applies" those terms. Common Article 3, by contrast, affords some minimal protection, falling short of full protection under the Conventions, to individuals associated with neither a signatory nor even a nonsignatory who are involved in a conflict "in the territory of" a signatory. The latter kind of conflict does not involve a clash between nations (whether signatories or not). Pp. 65-68.


source

But of course, the GC and the Supreme court don't matter because the senate just gave Bush the authority to ignore it if he wants to.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Sep, 2006 10:04 am
Quote:
STATE OF DENIAL

By Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 1, 2006; A01

In May, President Bush spoke in Chicago and gave a characteristically upbeat forecast: "Years from now, people will look back on the formation of a unity government in Iraq as a decisive moment in the story of liberty, a moment when freedom gained a firm foothold in the Middle East and the forces of terror began their long retreat."

Two days later, the intelligence division of the Joint Chiefs of Staff circulated a secret intelligence assessment to the White House that contradicted the president's forecast.

Instead of a "long retreat," the report predicted a more violent 2007: "Insurgents and terrorists retain the resources and capabilities to sustain and even increase current level of violence through the next year."

A graph included in the assessment measured attacks from May 2003 to May 2006. It showed some significant dips, but the current number of attacks against U.S.-led coalition forces and Iraqi authorities was as high as it had ever been -- exceeding 3,500 a month. (In July the number would be over 4,500.) The assessment also included a pessimistic report on crude oil production, the delivery of electricity and political progress.

On May 26, the Pentagon released an unclassified report to Congress, required by law, that contradicted the Joint Chiefs' secret assessment. The public report sent to Congress said the "appeal and motivation for continued violent action will begin to wane in early 2007."

There was a vast difference between what the White House and the Pentagon knew about the situation in Iraq and what they were saying publicly. But the discrepancy was not surprising. In memos, reports and internal debates, high-level officials of the Bush administration have voiced their concern about the United States' ability to bring peace and stability to Iraq since early in the occupation.

(The release last week of portions of a National Intelligence Estimate concluding that the war in Iraq has become a primary recruitment vehicle for terrorists -- following a series of upbeat speeches by the president -- presented a similar contrast.)

On June 18, 2003, Jay Garner went to see Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld to report on his brief tenure in Iraq as head of the postwar planning office. Throughout the invasion and the early days of the war, Garner, a retired Army lieutenant general, had struggled just to get his team into Iraq. Two days after he arrived, Rumsfeld called to tell him that L. Paul "Jerry" Bremer, a 61-year-old terrorism expert and protege of Henry A. Kissinger, would be coming over as the presidential envoy, effectively replacing Garner.

"We've made three tragic decisions," Garner told Rumsfeld at their meeting.

"Really?" Rumsfeld said.

"Three terrible mistakes," Garner said.

He cited the first two orders Bremer signed when he arrived, the first banning as many as 50,000 members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party from government jobs and the second disbanding the Iraqi military. Now there were hundreds of thousands of disorganized, unemployed, armed Iraqis running around.

Third, Garner said, Bremer had summarily dismissed an interim Iraqi leadership group that had been eager to help the United States administer the country in the short term. "Jerry Bremer can't be the face of the government to the Iraqi people. You've got to have an Iraqi face for the Iraqi people," he said.

Garner made his final point: "There's still time to rectify this. There's still time to turn it around."

Rumsfeld looked at Garner for a moment with his take-no-prisoners gaze. "Well," he said, "I don't think there is anything we can do, because we are where we are."

He thinks I've lost it, Garner thought. He thinks I'm absolutely wrong. Garner didn't want it to sound like sour grapes, but facts were facts. "They're all reversible," Garner said again.

"We're not going to go back," Rumsfeld said emphatically.


Later that day, Garner went with Rumsfeld to the White House. But in a meeting with Bush, he made no mention of mistakes. Instead he regaled the president with stories of his time in Baghdad.

In an interview last December, I asked Garner if he had any regrets in not telling the president about his misgivings.

"You know, I don't know if I had that moment to live over again, I don't know if I'd do that or not. But if I had done that -- and quite frankly, I mean, I wouldn't have had a problem doing that -- but in my thinking, the door's closed. I mean, there's nothing I can do to open this door again. And I think if I had said that to the president in front of Cheney and Condoleezza Rice and Rumsfeld in there, the president would have looked at them and they would have rolled their eyes back and he would have thought, 'Boy, I wonder why we didn't get rid of this guy sooner?' "

"They didn't see it coming," Garner added. "As the troops said, they drank the Kool-Aid."

What's the Strategy?
In the fall of 2003 and the winter of 2004, officials of the National Security Council became increasingly concerned about the ability of the U.S. military to counter the growing insurgency in Iraq.

Returning from a visit to Iraq, Robert D. Blackwill, the NSC's top official for Iraq, was deeply disturbed by what he considered the inadequate number of troops on the ground there. He told Rice and Stephen J. Hadley, her deputy, that the NSC needed to do a military review.

"If we have a military strategy, I can't identify it," Hadley said. "I don't know what's worse -- that they have one and won't tell us or that they don't have one."

Rice had made it clear that her authority did not extend to Rumsfeld or the military, so Blackwill never forced the issue with her. Still, he wondered why the president never challenged the military. Why didn't he say to Gen. John P. Abizaid at the end of one of his secure video briefings, "John, let's have another of these on Thursday and what I really want from you is please explain to me, let's take an hour and a half, your military strategy for victory."

After Bush's reelection, Hadley replaced Rice as national security adviser. He made an assessment of the problems from the first term.

"I give us a B-minus for policy development," he told a colleague on Feb. 5, 2005, "and a D-minus for policy execution."

Rice, for her part, hired Philip D. Zelikow, an old friend, and sent him immediately to Iraq. She needed ground truth, a full, detailed report from someone she trusted. Zelikow had a license to go anywhere and ask any question.

On Feb. 10, 2005, two weeks after Rice became secretary of state, Zelikow presented her with a 15-page, single-spaced secret memo. "At this point Iraq remains a failed state shadowed by constant violence and undergoing revolutionary political change," Zelikow wrote.

The insurgency was "being contained militarily," but it was "quite active," leaving Iraqi civilians feeling "very insecure," Zelikow said.

U.S. officials seemed locked down in the fortified Green Zone. "Mobility of coalition officials is extremely limited, and productive government activity is constrained."

Zelikow criticized the Baghdad-centered effort, noting that "the war can certainly be lost in Baghdad, but the war can only be won in the cities and provinces outside Baghdad."

In sum, he said, the United States' effort suffered because it lacked an articulated, comprehensive, unified policy.

Lessons From Kissinger
A powerful, largely invisible influence on Bush's Iraq policy was former secretary of state Kissinger.

"Of the outside people that I talk to in this job," Vice President Cheney told me in the summer of 2005, "I probably talk to Henry Kissinger more than I talk to anybody else. He just comes by and, I guess at least once a month, Scooter and I sit down with him." (Scooter is I. Lewis Libby, then Cheney's chief of staff.)

The president met privately with Kissinger every couple of months, making him the most regular and frequent outside adviser to Bush on foreign affairs.

Kissinger sensed wobbliness everywhere on Iraq, and he increasingly saw the situation through the prism of the Vietnam War. For Kissinger, the overriding lesson of Vietnam is to stick it out.

In his writing, speeches and private comments, Kissinger claimed that the United States had essentially won the war in 1972, only to lose it because of the weakened resolve of the public and Congress.

In a column in The Washington Post on Aug. 12, 2005, titled "Lessons for an Exit Strategy," Kissinger wrote, "Victory over the insurgency is the only meaningful exit strategy."

He delivered the same message directly to Bush, Cheney and Hadley at the White House.

Victory had to be the goal, he told all. Don't let it happen again. Don't give an inch, or else the media, the Congress and the American culture of avoiding hardship will walk you back.

He said the eventual outcome in Iraq was more important than Vietnam had been. A radical Islamic or Taliban-style government in Iraq would be a model that could challenge the internal stability of key countries in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Kissinger told Rice that in Vietnam they didn't have the time, focus, energy or support at home to get the politics in place. That's why it had collapsed like a house of cards. He urged that the Bush administration get the politics right, both in Iraq and on the home front. Partially withdrawing troops had its own dangers. Even entertaining the idea of withdrawing any troops could create momentum for an exit that was less than victory.

In a meeting with presidential speechwriter Michael Gerson in early September 2005, Kissinger was more explicit: Bush needed to resist the pressure to withdraw American troops. He repeated his axiom that the only meaningful exit strategy was victory.

"The president can't be talking about troop reductions as a centerpiece," Kissinger said. "You may want to reduce troops," but troop reduction should not be the objective. "This is not where you put the emphasis."

To emphasize his point, he gave Gerson a copy of a memo he had written to President Richard M. Nixon, dated Sept. 10, 1969.

"Withdrawal of U.S. troops will become like salted peanuts to the American public; the more U.S. troops come home, the more will be demanded," he wrote.

The policy of "Vietnamization," turning the fight over to the South Vietnamese military, Kissinger wrote, might increase pressure to end the war because the American public wanted a quick resolution. Troop withdrawals would only encourage the enemy. "It will become harder and harder to maintain the morale of those who remain, not to speak of their mothers."

Two months after Gerson's meeting, the administration issued a 35-page "National Strategy for Victory in Iraq." It was right out of the Kissinger playbook. The only meaningful exit strategy would be victory.

Echoes of Vietnam
Vietnam was also on the minds of some old Army buddies of Gen. Abizaid, the Centcom commander. They were worried that Iraq was slowly turning into Vietnam -- either it would wind down prematurely or become a war that was not winnable.

Some of them, including retired Gen. Wayne A. Downing and James V. Kimsey, a founder of America Online, visited Abizaid in 2005 at his headquarters in Doha, Qatar, and then in Iraq.

Abizaid held to the position that the war was now about the Iraqis. They had to win it now. The U.S. military had done all it could. It was critical, he argued, that they lower the American troop presence. It was still the face of an occupation, with American forces patrolling, kicking down doors and looking at the Iraqi women, which infuriated the Iraqi men.

"We've got to get the [expletive] out," he said.

Abizaid's old friends were worried sick that another Vietnam or anything that looked like Vietnam would be the end of the volunteer army. What's the strategy for winning? they pressed him.

"That's not my job," Abizaid said.

No, it is part of your job, they insisted.

No, Abizaid said. Articulating strategy belonged to others.

Who?

"The president and Condi Rice, because Rumsfeld doesn't have any credibility anymore," he said.

This March, Abizaid was in Washington to testify before the Senate Armed Services Committee. He painted a careful but upbeat picture of the situation in Iraq.

Afterward, he went over to see Rep. John P. Murtha in the Rayburn House Office Building. Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat, had introduced a resolution in Congress calling for American troops in Iraq to be "redeployed" -- the military term for returning troops overseas to their home bases -- "at the earliest practicable date."

"The war in Iraq is not going as advertised," Murtha had said. "It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion."

Now, sitting at the round dark-wood table in the congressman's office, Abizaid, the one uniformed military commander who had been intimately involved in Iraq from the beginning and who was still at it, indicated he wanted to speak frankly. According to Murtha, Abizaid raised his hand for emphasis, held his thumb and forefinger a quarter of an inch from each other and said, "We're that far apart."

Frustration and Resignation
That same month, White House chief of staff Andrew H. Card Jr. prepared to leave the administration after submitting his resignation to Bush. He felt a sense of relief mixed with the knowledge that he was leaving unfinished business.

"It's Iraq, Iraq, Iraq," Card had told his replacement, Joshua B. Bolten. "Then comes the economy."

One of Card's great worries was that Iraq would be compared to Vietnam. In March, there were 58,249 names on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington. One of Kissinger's private criticisms of Bush was that he had no mechanism in place, or even an inclination, to consider the downsides of impending decisions. Alternative courses of action were rarely considered.

As best Card could remember, there had been some informal, blue-sky discussions at times along the lines of "What could we do differently?" But there had been no formal sessions to consider alternatives to staying in Iraq. To his knowledge there were no anguished memos bearing the names of Cheney, Rice, Hadley, Rumsfeld, the CIA, Card himself or anyone else saying "Let's examine alternatives," as had surfaced after the Vietnam era.

Card put it on the generals in the Pentagon and Iraq. If they had come forward and said to the president "It's not worth it" or "The mission can't be accomplished," Card was certain, the president would have said "I'm not going to ask another kid to sacrifice for it."

Card was enough of a realist to see that two negative aspects to Bush's public persona had come to define his presidency: incompetence and arrogance. Card did not believe that Bush was incompetent, and so he had to face the possibility that as Bush's chief of staff, he might have been the incompetent one. In addition, he did not think the president was arrogant.

But the marketing of Bush had come across as arrogant. Maybe it was unfair in Card's opinion, but there it was.

He was leaving. And the man most responsible for the postwar troubles, the one who should have gone, Rumsfeld, was staying.

Bill Murphy Jr. and Christine Parthemore contributed to this report.


As long as Bush is in the White House this war will never be won or will ever be ended. The only thing Bush will do is get more Americans killed for nothing.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 06:31 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield? You are aware that there are quite a few of them.

Cycloptichorn

What land or location is not part of the battlefield? Wherever ICT exists is part of the battlefield between ICT and the rest of humanity!

Consequently, I conclude there are zero ICT "prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield."

ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).

ICT are waging war against non-combatants.

ICT are evil enemies of humanity.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 07:08 pm
revel wrote:

...
Common Article 2, which limits its own application to any armed conflict between signatories and provides that signatories must abide by all terms of the Conventions even if another party to the conflict is a nonsignatory, so long as the nonsignatory "accepts and applies" those terms. Common Article 3, by contrast, affords some minimal protection, falling short of full protection under the Conventions, to individuals associated with neither a signatory nor even a nonsignatory who are involved in a conflict "in the territory of" a signatory. The latter kind of conflict does not involve a clash between nations (whether signatories or not).
...

Let's parse this.

Quote:
Common Article 2, which limits its own application to any armed conflict between signatories

and provides that signatories must abide by all terms of the Conventions

even if another party to the conflict is a nonsignatory,

so long as the nonsignatory "accepts and applies" those terms.


Clearly, Common Article 2 does not apply to ICT, because ICT does not accept and apply those terms to its own conduct. For example, ICT is waging war against non-combatants and on that account is acting in violation of Common Article 2.

ICT are waging war against non-combatants.

ICT are evil enemies of humanity.

ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).


Quote:
Common Article 3, by contrast, affords some minimal protection,

falling short of full protection under the Conventions
,

to individuals associated with neither a signatory

nor even a nonsignatory

who are involved in a conflict "in the territory of" a signatory.

The latter kind of conflict does not involve a clash between nations

(whether signatories or not).


Is Iraq a signatory? I think not.

Is Afghanistan a signatory? I think not.

What is that minimal protection?

Is it the same protection for those who wage war on non-combatants as for those who do not wage war on non-combatants? I think not.

Is it the same protection for those who decapitate their prisoners as for those who do not decapitate their prisoners? I think not.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 07:17 pm
xingu wrote:
Quote:
STATE OF DENIAL

By Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 1, 2006; A01
...
Bill Murphy Jr. and Christine Parthemore contributed to this report.


As long as Bush is in the White House this war will never be won or will ever be ended. The only thing Bush will do is get more Americans killed for nothing.

Woodwards book is pseudology (i.e., falsities or lies).

The people who told Woodward this pseudology are pseuologists(i.e., falsifiers or liars).

When they told these things to Woodward they were pseudologizing (i.e., falsifying or lying).

This will become quite evident before the election.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 07:39 pm
xingu wrote:

...
As long as Bush is in the White House this war will never be won or will ever be ended. The only thing Bush will do is get more Americans killed for nothing.


Pray tell, xingu, ......

Who in the White House will end this war?

Who in the White House will end this war by winning it?

Who in the White House will end this war by losing it?

I say, if Democrats again occupy the White House, they will end this war by losing it?

I say, if Republicans continue to occupy the White House, they will end this war by winning it?

I also say that if this war is ended by losing it, there will thereafter be no White House to occupy ... nor a US Capital building to occupy either.

Remember the airliner that crashed into the Pennsylvania field, thanks to the passengers on board, was targeting one or the other!

Republican's are dumb but can learn.

Democrat's are crazy and cannot be cured.

Unfortunately, those are our only choices.

I say better to vote for dumb than vote for crazy.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Oct, 2006 08:25 pm
ican711nm wrote:

Quote:
Common Article 3, by contrast, affords some minimal protection,

falling short of full protection under the Conventions
,

to individuals associated with neither a signatory

nor even a nonsignatory

who are involved in a conflict "in the territory of" a signatory.

The latter kind of conflict does not involve a clash between nations

(whether signatories or not).


Is Iraq a signatory? I think not.

Is Afghanistan a signatory? I think not.

What is that minimal protection?

Is it the same protection for those who wage war on non-combatants as for those who do not wage war on non-combatants? I think not.

Is it the same protection for those who decapitate their prisoners as for those who do not decapitate their prisoners? I think not.

Ignorance rears its ugly head again.

Both Iraq and Afghanistan are signatories to the Geneva convention
Signatory states Geneva convention
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 02:04 am
ican711nm wrote:
xingu wrote:
Quote:
STATE OF DENIAL

By Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 1, 2006; A01
...
Bill Murphy Jr. and Christine Parthemore contributed to this report.


As long as Bush is in the White House this war will never be won or will ever be ended. The only thing Bush will do is get more Americans killed for nothing.

Woodwards book is pseudology (i.e., falsities or lies).

The people who told Woodward this pseudology are pseuologists(i.e., falsifiers or liars).

When they told these things to Woodward they were pseudologizing (i.e., falsifying or lying).

This will become quite evident before the election.


Poor ican
Whenever evidence surfaces to show his corrupt ideology he screams lies.

Woodward interviewed some 200 people for this book and he taped them all. Most all of these people were members of the Bush administration, among them Dick Cheney.

Screaming lies only shows your desperation.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 08:51 am
I hardly ever watch TV news so I didn't watch the Woodward interview on 48 hours. However, almost anything can be found on the internet these days so

Mike Wallace interviews Bob Woodward about his new book, "State Of Denial." The book reports the White House has not been honest about the Iraq war.

I think Woodward about sums up the few remaining supporters of the Iraq war, "state of denial."
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 09:11 am
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield? You are aware that there are quite a few of them.

Cycloptichorn

What land or location is not part of the battlefield? Wherever ICT exists is part of the battlefield between ICT and the rest of humanity!

Consequently, I conclude there are zero ICT "prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield."

ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).

ICT are waging war against non-combatants.

ICT are evil enemies of humanity.


Let me rephrase this question - though the original was obvious to anyone - what about those who we capture who are in fact innocent of any crime? Are they to be tortured for information as well?

Are opponents of ours who are not caught while shooting at us, or in a roomfull of bombs, innocent until proven guilty? Or are accusations by the US enough justification for torture?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 09:12 am
xingu wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
xingu wrote:
Quote:
STATE OF DENIAL

By Bob Woodward
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 1, 2006; A01
...
Bill Murphy Jr. and Christine Parthemore contributed to this report.


As long as Bush is in the White House this war will never be won or will ever be ended. The only thing Bush will do is get more Americans killed for nothing.

Woodwards book is pseudology (i.e., falsities or lies).

The people who told Woodward this pseudology are pseuologists(i.e., falsifiers or liars).

When they told these things to Woodward they were pseudologizing (i.e., falsifying or lying).

This will become quite evident before the election.


Poor ican
Whenever evidence surfaces to show his corrupt ideology he screams lies.

Woodward interviewed some 200 people for this book and he taped them all. Most all of these people were members of the Bush administration, among them Dick Cheney.

Screaming lies only shows your desperation.


Couldn't agree more, Xingu.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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