0
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 09:17 am
Some official hope, encouragement, and positive reinforcement:

Quote:
In Iraq, al-Qaida terrorists and other extremists are fighting and killing in what will be an unsuccessful attempt to stop the rise of a free society.

In 2003, a U.S.-led coalition overthrew the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein. Now, terrorists have joined the remnants of the ousted regime in fomenting sectarian violence. They have made Iraq a crucial front in the global war on terrorism.

President George W. Bush says, "The challenge is to help the Iraqi people build a democracy that fulfills the dreams of the nearly twelve-million Iraqis who came out to vote in free elections last December":

"Our enemies in Iraq are tough and they are committed - but so are Iraqi and coalition forces. We're adapting to stay ahead of the enemy, and we are carrying out a clear plan to ensure that a democratic Iraq succeeds."

The coalition is training Iraqi troops to defend their nation and helping the Iraqi government to better serve the Iraqi people. Mr. Bush says the coalition "will not leave until this work is done":

"Whatever mistakes have been made in Iraq, the worst mistake would be to think that if we pulled out, the terrorists would leave us alone. . . .If we yield Iraq to men like bin-Laden, our enemies will be emboldened; they will gain a new safe haven; they will use Iraq's resources to fuel their extremist movement. We will not allow this to happen".

"The Iraqi people have been steadfast in the face of violence," says Mr. Bush. He says the U.S. "will stay in the fight. Iraq will be a free nation and a strong ally in the war on terror."

The preceding was an editorial reflecting the views of the United States Government.
source: Voice of America/Radio Free Europe


http://i10.tinypic.com/2i6osox.jpg
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 10:05 am
Good summation of Bush's disastrous Iraq policy and his so-called War on Terrorism.

Quote:
How America's post-9/11 wars have undermined US national security
By Carl Conetta
http://www.comw.org/pda/0609br18.html

Project on Defense Alternatives Briefing Report #18
09/08/06 "PDA" -- -- 05 September 2006 --- America's unique position of power in the post-Cold War era has often inspired comparisons to that of Rome during the rule of Augustus. But the security policy adopted by the United States, especially since the 9/11 attacks, calls to mind a different ancient place and personage: Pyrrhus (318 - 272 B.C.E.), king of Epirus, a Hellenistic realm that comprised what is now northwestern Greece and southern Albania. Plutarch memorializes Pyrrhus as a "great man of war" - but also a fool. Although he waged successful campaigns against Macedonia, the Romans, and others, Pyrrhus was unable to preserve his gains, which came at great cost. In the end, his martial ambitions won him and his kingdom nothing but ruin and disapprobation. He is remembered today in the phrase "Pyrrhic victory"- meaning any victory not worth its cost.

The architects of the "war on terrorism" - now the "long war against Islamic extremism" - can point to a number of achievements since 11 September 2001 (outlined below). However, a comprehensive net assessment of their efforts shows them to be mostly "pyrrhic" in character. Measured in the coin of long-term security and stability, post-9/11 policy has cost more than it has gained.

As recounted below, the various costs and risks undertaken as part of America's three post-9/11 wars are considerable. And many of these costs and risks are deferred ones. Yet, few of the goals that define current missions have been achieved or even seem close to realization. With regard to stemming terrorism: the problem has grown worse, not better.

The potentials for new and broader confrontations are growing as a direct consequence of current missions. This, because significant portions of the Muslim world have come to view US efforts as constituting a "war on Islam" - and also because potential US adversaries outside the Muslim world (notably China and Russia) have begun to organize themselves to resist perceived US "hegemonism".

While the potential for broader confrontation increases, America's capacities to win or manage these is diminishing. This is due to a gradual erosion of US military capabilities, the deleterious economic and fiscal effects of today's wars, and the alienation of allied states and publics.

Undaunted and unapologetic, the Bush administration continues to argue the virtues of staying the present course. But, in light of our experience so far, this more and more tests the patience, credulity, fiscal sobriety, and risk tolerance of the American public.

1. Balance sheet on current missions
Al Qaeda: Still in the game
The operational capacity of the original "Al Qaeda" centered around Osama bin-Laden has been significantly degraded. Hundreds of former members have been killed or captured (mostly during the Afghan war). Nonetheless, the organization continues to function in a more decentralized form. Bin-Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri continue to provide guidance and encouragement to their followers, having issued 35 video and audio recordings from their redoubt in Pakistan.

Since 11 September 2001, Al Qaeda has directed, financed, or played an important role in 30 fatal operations in 12 countries causing 2500 casualties including 440 deaths. These figures, from the Rand-MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base, do not include the activities of al-Zarqawi in Iraq, nor do they include the activities of independent groups friendly to al-Qaeda.

Iraq and Afghanistan: Splendid disasters
US operations successfully toppled the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Hussein regime in Iraq. In both countries, there are now elected governments, US influence is entrenched, and the US military has a virtually free hand. However, security and stability eludes both countries, economic development has stalled, and conservative Islamic forces dominate the political scene.

The insurgency in Iraq is today conducting attacks at a higher rate than ever before. In Afghanistan, there has been a dramatic resurgence of Taliban activity, with the incidence of attacks up 74 percent from last year and the fatality rate up 140 percent, according to the Rand-MIPT terrorism database. There is little evidence of these problems abating.

Afghanistan is a "ten block democracy" where the writ of the central government barely extends beyond the capital before ceding to warlord rule. The country has become, once again, the world's leading producer of opium poppy, now providing approximately 92 percent of the world supply. Production is higher today than ever before - 59 percent higher than last year (UNODC, 2006). Eradication efforts have done little more than stimulate support for insurgency.

Iraq is characterized by anarchy in governance, national fragmentation, and civil strife. Insurgency and high-levels of intercommunal violence affect areas containing 50 percent of the population (if Basra is included). Death squads operate inside the security services and the penal system does not meet minimum human rights standards.

The Iraqi central government (as such) has little capacity to enforce its writ independently and, essentially, shares power with the US mission and with provincial, local, and factional centers. Indeed, the central government is itself fragmented with little conveyance of authority among the parliament, prime minister's office, and the individual ministries. Postwar reconstruction has stalled with low levels of achievement outside the "green zone". Oil production, access to potable water, and sewage disposal services have not yet recovered to prewar levels. Electricity generation finally surpassed the prewar level in May 2006. Unemployment stands at between 25 and 40 percent.

The human cost of war in the two countries has been substantial. A reasonable estimate is that, at minimum, 70,000 Iraqis and Afghanis have died due to war-related violence (including excess criminal violence).

Although the Bush administration has viewed Iraq as pivotal to democratic transition in the region, the experience has instead associated democratization with foreign occupation, chaotic violence, and economic stagnation. Polls conducted during 2004 and 2005 by the University of Maryland and Zogby International in Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the UAE leave no doubt that Arabs tend to view the Iraq experience as detrimental to the region's prospects for peace, stability, and democracy.

2. Broader effects of post-9/11 wars
Increased terrorism
Overall, terrorist activity and violence has grown worse, not better since 11 September 2001. Average levels of terrorist violence that would have been considered extreme in the period prior to 9/11 have become the norm in the years since. And there is no sign that this trend is abating. This much is evident from a review of the terrorism incident database maintained by the Rand Corporation for the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT), which is funded by the US Department of Homeland Security. Surveying incidents for the period January 1998 through 11 August 2006 shows that:

The rate of terrorism fatalities for the 59-month period following 11 September 2001 is 250 percent that of the 44.5 month period preceding and including the 9/11 attacks. This figure has been adjusted to account for the different length of the two periods and it implies an increase in average monthly fatalities of 150 percent. (Only in January 1998 did the database begin to include both national and international terrorism incidents.)

The rate of terrorist incidents for the post-9/11 period is 268 percent that of the period prior to and including 11 September 2001. This implies a 167 percent increase in what might be called the average monthly rate of incidents.

A fair portion of the increased activity is related to the war in Iraq - but not all. Removing Iraq from the picture shows an increase in the average monthly rate of terrorism fatalities of more than 10 percent for the post-9/11 period. The increase in the rate of incidents not counting Iraq is 75 percent.

Finally, it is worth noting, that if we divide the post-9/11 period into two equal halves, the number of terrorism fatalities is greater in the second half than in the first - even when Iraq is excluded: ~ 4772 fatalities in the first half versus ~ 5177 in the second. There is no evidence here that the post-9/11 surge in terrorism fatalities is abating.

Growing anti-American sentiments
As found in numerous polls, popular support outside the United States for the US-led "war on terrorism" has fallen precipitously since 2002 - as have positive sentiments toward the United States generally. This is true not only in most Muslim nations polled, but also among many of America's key allies in Europe. Majorities or pluralities see the Iraq war as contributing to the problem of terrorism and, in many countries, now see the United States as having a mostly negative influence on world affairs. In many Arab and Muslim states, majorities commonly feel that the United States may actually pose a military threat to their homelands. Such perceptions might be expected of populations in Syria and Iran - but it is true as well for citizens of Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon. (See references in the public opinion section of bibliography.)

Although global public sentiments regarding the United States do not directly or immediately translate into policy change, voters in several allied countries - the United Kingdom, Italy, and Spain - have punished their governments for pro-American stances. Political effects are more evident in Arab and Muslim countries.

Political advance of Islamic fundamentalism
Parallel with America's post-9/11 wars and counter-terror efforts, radical Islamic parties have increased their political influence substantially in more than a dozen nations, often campaigning explicitly against what they describe as a "war against Islam". Winning more votes during the past five than ever before, such parties have advanced their positions in Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Indonesia, Jordan, Morocco, the Palestinian territories, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey.

In Turkey and the Palestinian territories they now lead governments and probably could win power in Egypt, too, should fully free elections be conducted there. In Iraq, fundamentalist parties dominate government; in Iran, the conservative former mayor of Tehran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, rose to presidential office in a campaign explicitly challenging US policy. In Lebanon, the influence and popularity of Hizbullah grew substantially during the post-9/11 period. Even its miscalculation in raiding Israel in July 2006 has not dented its support, with one poll showing more than 80 percent of Lebanese backing its confrontational stance.

In Bangladesh, Islamic parties have consolidated their position in the post-9/11 period, after winning a major role in government in October 2001. And, in Somalia, the Supreme Islamic Courts Council has become the predominant force in the country, although not by electoral means. US support for the opposing Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism and likely US support for the Ethiopian incursion into Somalia have only rebounded to the Courts' favor, which is attracting increasing support from warlord groups on the basis of nationalist appeals.

Nations balancing against US activism
Nations - including allied ones - also may have state reasons for "balancing" against the United States or impeding its policies. Along these lines, Germany, France, and Turkey impeded Operation Iraqi Freedom during its initial stage. More serious is the formation and expansion of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) - essentially a counter to perceived US hegemony - which includes as full members China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan. Observer status has been afforded to India, Iran, Mongolia, and Pakistan. Among the policy priorities of the SCO are limitations on US efforts to secure new, enduring military bases in Central Asia.

Military activism by any great nation will increase the relevance of military power wherever that activism occurs. Thus, we should expect that US global activism will spur an increase in global military expenditure. And, indeed, global spending has increased in real terms by 28 percent since reaching a post-Cold War low point in 1997. Much of this is due to the United States, which now accounts for half of world military expenditures, but increased spending by Russia, China, India, and Pakistan is also significant. Indeed, average real expenditures are up in all regions except Central America and Western Europe.

3. Costs to the United States
Human cost

First among the costs of operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom are the 3,000 dead and 20,000 wounded US service personnel. Among the wounded we should as well include the 12 percent of returning veterans who are diagnosed as suffering from war-related mental health problems, as determined by the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research. (Hoge, et. al, March 2006)

Budgetary costs and effect on the economy
The monetary cost of operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom to the end of FY 2006 has exceeded $400 billion (including reconstruction assistance). Additional cost is presently accruing at a rate of approximately $10 billion per month. The broader fiscal context of this expenditure is defined by US federal budget deficits in the range of $400 billion per annum (on budget) and a gross national debt of $8.5 trillion - of which $2.5 trillion accumulated during the past five years.

There is no plausible scenario under which the ultimate "incremental cost" of current operations will not exceed $600 billion; the final cost probably will be much more. And this does not include other war-related costs to the federal government - such as veterans' benefits and increased interest payments. Nor does it encompass broader economic effects (which might include increased energy prices, interest rates, and opportunity costs). Two economists who have attempted such an analysis, Nobel Prize winner Joseph Stiglitz of Columbia University and Linda Bilmes of Harvard's Kennedy School, conclude that the total costs of the Iraq war alone may accumulate to between $1 trillion and $2.2 trillion - on the assumption of a gradual troop drawdown between 2006 and 2010. (Bilmes and Stiglitz, January 2006.)

Effects on the armed services
Today the United States maintains approximately 300,000 active-component military personnel overseas - either stationed or operationally deployed; in addition, there are more than 60,000 Guard and Reserve personnel abroad. Similar or higher numbers of troops were overseas for most of the past four years. Of the total today, more than 200,000 are operationally deployed in or around Iraq, Afghanistan, and other foreign territories.

Focusing on the active component: about 21 percent are now overseas. During most of the 1990s (after Desert Storm), the proportion overseas was approximately 16 percent. More telling: the average proportion of active component troops involved in actual operations today is more than three times larger than in the mid to late 1990s. And much of this stress is focused on the Army, which now routinely has one-third of its active component stationed or deployed overseas.

Together with other commitments, the war has required Marine units to deploy at rates more than 25 percent higher than what the service considers acceptable for long periods. Active Army units have been exceeding their deployment standards by 60 percent. These rates would have been even higher but that DOD leaned heavily on National Guard and Reserve units, deploying as many as 100,000 reserve personnel overseas at one time for tours averaging 342 days.

Not since the Vietnam era has the United States had such a large portion of its active-component armed forces at work overseas or deployed in operations as today. And not since the Korean war has it asked so much of its National Guard and Reserve troops.

High rates of operational tempo maintained over long periods are known to adversely affect training, morale, and discipline - causing a degradation in capability and problems in personnel retention and recruitment. The deleterious effects are already evident in the struggle to meet recruiting goals. In Fiscal Year 2005, five of the nation's 10 military components (counting active, reserve and National Guard) fell short in recruiting. The forces also face a growing problem in retaining officers.

Several components have responded to today's stresses in ways likely to erode the longer-term capabilities of the forces: by raising age limits on enlistment and lowering the quality bar on recruitment and promotion. The services are also paying larger cash bonuses for enlistment and re-enlistment, which tends to roll costs forward because the bonuses are payable upon the completion of service terms.

Perhaps most important has been the extensive reliance on "stop loss" orders, which have compelled 50,000 service personnel to extend their time in service. This tends to mask the effects of high optempo, which will only become apparent when the resort to "stop loss" ends.

The stress on equipment is equally great, with utilization rates in Iraq exceeding peacetime standards by two- to ten-fold -- a pace that quickly eats into service life. Effected is 40 percent of Army and Marine Corps ground equipment, as well as other assets. In order to sustain high equipment availability rates, the services have tended to defer higher-level maintenance - again, rolling the costs of war forward. As the Government Accountability Office reported in March 2006:

The services have made a risk-based decision to keep equipment in theater, to forego depot repairs, and to rely almost exclusively on in-theater repair capabilities... As a result, much of the equipment has not undergone higher level depot maintenance since the start of operations in March 2003. (GAO, March 2005, p. 8)

This will eventually render some equipment unrecoverable. And it increases postwar military "reset" costs. The Army alone estimates postwar recovery will require at least $24 billion to $36 billion.

4. Recommendations
At the heart of the present imbroglio are several policy impulses that must be avoided in the future. First, there is the tendency to see "regime change" operations as essential to achieving our basic security goals. Second, there is an overweening faith in the utility of force as a precise instrument of policy and an insensitivity to its attendant costs, risks, and collateral effects. Finally, there is a tendency to expand the scope and objectives of military action, rather than focus them on discrete ends. With these errors in mind we can define the basic coordinates of a new course:

First, the United States should focus its counter-terrorism efforts on a multi-faceted "campaign against the Al Qaeda network" as well as on allied organizations that credibly target the United States or US citizens and assets abroad. This criteria would not include every organization, movement, and insurgency that the Pentagon loosely lists under the acronym, AQAM - meaning "Al Qaeda and associated movements".

Second, it is appropriate that we place greater emphasis on meeting the general challenges posed by terrorism - and not just the "Islamic" sort. This recognizes the failure of successive administrations to adequately prepare for and defend against post-Cold War challenges. Along these lines, greater investment in homeland security and appropriate intelligence, military, and law enforcement capabilities is sensible. Especially important is maintaining cooperative international security relationships. But this is not the same as conducting a generalized "war on terrorism" - much less a "war on Islamic extremism". Dedicated, counter-offensive military campaigns targeting networks and organizations should be decided and undertaken on a case-by-case basis. These need not all be viewed as part of some single grand "war". Instead, they are all part of adapting our security priorities, structures, and practices to the routine challenges of the post-Cold War security environment.

Third, US policymakers should exercise greater restraint when considering involving the nation as a combatant or a partisan in complex regional conflicts over which we have little control. The fact that terrorists or terrorism may play a role in a larger conflict does not by itself warrant direct US military involvement. Insurgencies, secessionist movements, and anti-regime movements often involve real and legitimate grievances. A common danger is implicating ourselves in conflicts that are partly driven by the actions or policies of allies over whom we have limited influence.

Fourth, extraordinary restraint is due when contemplating "regime change," military occupation, or operations aiming to suppress insurgencies that enjoy significant popular support. In all such cases: stable, predictable outcomes are very difficult to achieve, usually very costly, and often require protracted engagements. Also, they often are corrosive to the armed forces that undertake them. The real challenge for US policymakers is to find ways to achieve essential security goals without resorting to large-scale high-risk adventures.

Fifth, attempts to impose democracy by military means - that is, by means of war or by threats of military action - tend to be counter-productive. This, because they typically arouse strong nationalistic reactions. Under threat, populations are more likely to rally around their governments and more willing, not less, to forgo democratic rights. The wisest course is to demilitarize US support for democratic transition. From a security policy perspective, the real challenge for policymakers is to find ways to defend the nation short of requiring societal transformation on a global scale.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 10:15 am
October surprise?

Quote:
(REPOST) PUTS FORECAST OCT. SURPRISE?
Monday, October 02, 2006 - FreeMarketNews.com

INITIAL POST 09.30.06

A faithful reader and commentator, "A. Magnus" writes the following email, posted to FMNN General Feedback:

"Do you like October suprises? Is there a big bang coming to hit the markets? If you believe that those in the know use insider information before major events then you might be interested on the HUGE number of October 6th put options for the big indexes. Check out the concentrated puts on the Diamonds DOW Trust (DIA):

https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=DIA

Ditto for the S&P Depository Receipts (SPY):

https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=SPY

And the NASDAQ (QQQQ):
https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=QQQQ

Even the Market Vectors Gold Miners has significant puts for October 6th:

https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=GDX

Make no mistake - something wicked this way comes, and the smart money has already taken preventative steps."

Staff Selections - Links


Wonder what they have cooked up this time...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 11:07 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
October surprise?

Quote:
(REPOST) PUTS FORECAST OCT. SURPRISE?
Monday, October 02, 2006 - FreeMarketNews.com

INITIAL POST 09.30.06

A faithful reader and commentator, "A. Magnus" writes the following email, posted to FMNN General Feedback:

"Do you like October suprises? Is there a big bang coming to hit the markets? If you believe that those in the know use insider information before major events then you might be interested on the HUGE number of October 6th put options for the big indexes. Check out the concentrated puts on the Diamonds DOW Trust (DIA):

https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=DIA

Ditto for the S&P Depository Receipts (SPY):

https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=SPY

And the NASDAQ (QQQQ):
https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=QQQQ

Even the Market Vectors Gold Miners has significant puts for October 6th:

https://fastquote.fidelity.com/webxpress/ia_optionchain_frameset.phtml?priced=Y&SID_VALUE_ID=GDX

Make no mistake - something wicked this way comes, and the smart money has already taken preventative steps."

Staff Selections - Links


Wonder what they have cooked up this time...

Cycloptichorn

Can't get into the website unless we have a password or account number.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 11:09 am
Yeah, I realized that after I posted it. durrr, please disregard

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 11:46 am
parados wrote:

...
Both Iraq and Afghanistan are signatories to the Geneva convention

Signatory states Geneva convention


According to the link you provided, Afghanistan ratified the Geneva Conventions in 1956, but not either of the Protocols I or II. Subsequent to 1956, circa 1988, the legal government of Afghanistan that formally ratified the Conventions was violently overthrown and eventually replaced by the Taliban. The Taliban did not subsequently formally ratify the Conventions.

According to the link you provided, Iraq ratified the Conventions in 1956, but not either of the Protocols I or II. Subsequent to 1956, circa 1978, the legal government of Iraq that formally ratified the Conventions was violently overthrown and eventually replaced by Saddam's regime. Saddam's regime did not subsequently formally ratify the Conventions.

Perhaps, a country whose government is violently overthrown and not legally replaced by another government continues to be considered, according to international law, a signatory of the Conventions until and unless the overthrowing government formally withdraws from the Conventions. However, both the Taliban government and Saddam's regime violated the Conventions repeatedly. I think such behavior ought to be considered tantamount to withdrawal from the Conventions.

So, are the present Afghanistan and Iraq governments signatories of the conventions? I think not, until and unless they formally say they are.

Regardless of whether I'm correct on the above, the ICT are in fact repeated violators of the Conventions, because:

(1) they willingly, knowingly, intentionally and deliberately wage war against non-combatants;

(2) they willingly, knowingly, intentionally and deliberately decapitate or otherwise kill their prisoners.


ICT are waging war against non-combatants.

ICT are evil enemies of humanity.

ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).

Because the ICT repeatedly violate the Conventions, USA prisoners of ICT are not entitled to the protections of the Conventions.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 12:54 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield? You are aware that there are quite a few of them.

Cycloptichorn

What land or location is not part of the battlefield? Wherever ICT exists is part of the battlefield between ICT and the rest of humanity!

Consequently, I conclude there are zero ICT "prisoners that we keep who were not captured on the battlefield."

ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).

ICT are waging war against non-combatants.

ICT are evil enemies of humanity.


Let me rephrase this question - though the original was obvious to anyone - what about those who we capture who are in fact innocent of any crime? Are they to be tortured for information as well?

Are opponents of ours who are not caught while shooting at us, or in a roomfull of bombs, innocent until proven guilty? Or are accusations by the US enough justification for torture?

Cycloptichorn

I choose to rephrase your questions to match reality.

Are [enemies] of ours who are not caught [in the act of] shooting [at us or at non-combatants], or [are not in the same location as enemy ordnance], innocent until proven guilty?

No! They are neither innocent or quilty of any legal crime. They were captured in the vicinity of those of our enemies who were caught in the act of shooting at us or at non-combatants; or they were captured in the vicinity of enemy ordnance. Consequently, they are prisoners of war who must be released at the end of hostilities.

Or are [such captures and] accusations by the US enough justification for [holding such persons prisoners of war]?

Yes! Such captures and accusations by the US are enough justification for holding such persons prisoners of war until the end of hostilities when prisoners of war must be released.

[What constitutes] justification for torture?

Killing, maiming, crippling, and injuring prisoners is never justified. But it is justifable to interrogate prisoners suspected of possessing information that can be used to save lives, by using kindness, fatigue, noise, shouting, humiliation, fear, and/or confinement.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 01:08 pm
Can you answer my questions, and not the ones that you wished I asked?

You are presuming that all those in custody are in fact enemies of America. I am reminding you that a great deal of people whom we have in custody have not been found to be enemies of America. Therefore, you cannot say our 'enemies' in terms of this discussion, but rather 'someone we have captured.'

Are all those captured by the US, regardless of when or where, assumed to be enemies of the US?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 05:09 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
You are presuming that all those in custody are in fact enemies of America.

No, I'm presuming all those in custody are in fact legally prisoners of war. Some are enemies of America; some are not.

I am reminding you that a great deal of people whom we have in custody have not been proven before a judge and/or jury to be enemies of America.

Yes, a great deal of people whom we have incarcerated have not yet been found to be enemies of America. Nor need we find them to be enemies of America to legally keep them incarcerated as prisoners of war until hostilities are ended.

Therefore, you cannot say our 'enemies' in terms of this discussion, but rather 'someone we have captured.'

Some are our enemies; some are not. All are prisoners of war.

Are all those captured by the US, regardless of when or where, assumed to be enemies of the US?

No! I don't assume that all those captured by the US, regardless of when or where, are assumed to be enemies of the US? I think our government does not assume that either. I do assume that they are all prisoners of war whom we can legally keep incarcerated until hostilities are ended.

Cycloptichorn

I'm basing my answers on two facts:
(1) The USA is not legally required by any law, domestic or international, to prove that any of our prisoners of war are in fact our enemies in order to keep them incarcerated until hostilities are ended. This principle has been in effect for all wars throughout at least the 20th and 21st centuries.

(2) I am reminding you that the USA Constitution allows our federal government to suspend habeas corpus when in cases of rebellion or invasion our governent thinks the public safety requires it (please see USA Constitution: Article I, Section 9.)

Quote:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/habeas%20corpus
Main Entry: ha·be·as cor·pus
Pronunciation: 'hA-bE-&s-'kor-p&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin, literally, you should have the body (the opening words of the writ)
1 : any of several common-law writs issued to bring a party before a court or judge; especially : HABEAS CORPUS AD SUBJICIENDUM
2 : the right of a citizen to obtain a writ of habeas corpus as a protection against illegal imprisonment


As a practical matter, the USA could cannot end this or any other war by winning it, if the USA were to be required to prove before a judge and/or jury whether each of its prisoners of war is actually an enemy of the USA, before it can keep that prisoner of war incarcerated. If compelled to act under such constraint, any rational military, in order to limit the number of its own casualties caused by prematurely released prisoners, would probably adopt the policy of "take no prisoners" (i.e., kill rather than incarcerate any who surrender).

Of course, the USA can end this war by losing it, simply by releasing all prisoners a specified time after they are captured whether they be provable enemies or non-enemies of the USA.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 05:22 pm
So, basically, anyone we decide to take, anywhere, at any time, can be put through any sort of inquistion that we deem neccessary, to provide information, is your argument - regardless of whether or not there is any evidence that they either worked against America in any way, or not?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Oct, 2006 06:11 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So, basically, anyone we decide to take, anywhere, at any time, can be put through any sort of inquistion that we deem neccessary, to provide information, is your argument - regardless of whether or not there is any evidence that they either worked against America in any way, or not?

Cycloptichorn

No!

Quote:
anyone we decide to take, anywhere, at any time,

Any person our military combatants take prisoner at any time can legally be incarcerated until hostilities end. Obviously, any such person must be co-located in the same area at the same time as the military combatants who take that person prisoner. The only evidence that need be provided is the statement by those military combatants that they think the prisoner may be a member of the enemy.

That is the way wars have been conducted throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

Quote:
any sort of inquistion that we deem neccessary, to provide information

Any inquisition that does not kill, maim, injure or disable a prisoner is permissible. The military interrogators select those prisoners to interrogate based on information they obtain from captors of those prisoners and based on the judgment of the interrogators.

As a practical matter, few prisoners of war are actually interrogated. There are usually too many prisoners, too little time, and too few competent interrogators. So interrogators select those they think are most likely to possess information which can save lives. They stop interrogating prisoners they subsequently decide do not possess information which can save lives.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 07:42 am
October Tuesday 3rd 2006 (05h21) :
Plans for a massive and quick U.S. military evacuation from Iraq

October 2, 2006 -- , . . Pentagon sources report that plans for a massive and quick U.S. military evacuation from Iraq have been drawn up -- and that they borrow heavily from the U.S. evacuation experience in South Vietnam.
Pentagon and U.S. Central Command contingency planners, fully expecting a major insurgent offensive against U.S. forces in Iraq that will result in a mandatory U.S. military withdrawal, have already identified evacuation staging locations, including from the grounds of the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad's Green Zone and Baghdad International Airport. Other evacuation points reportedly include major hotels and U.S. military bases in Iraq. It is planned that evacuees will be airlifted by plane and helicopters to U.S. Navy ships in the Gulf, Kuwait, Jordan, and Germany.

British forces in Basra have also drawn up evacuation plans.

With Anbar province already lost to the insurgents and much of the country in turmoil, the failure of the United States to evacuate in the face of an all-out insurgent offensive could result in a number of U.S. forces being taken prisoner by insurgent forces. And with the recent decision of Congress to permit torture of enemy prisoners, the fate of a large number of U.S. military and civilian prisoners in insurgent hands has Pentagon officials extremely worried.

http://surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=153183

Rumors.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 12:43 pm
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE?

Quote:
The US military today announced that nine of its soldiers had died in Baghdad in the last three days, with the news coming as authorities said at least 13 people had been killed in new outbreaks of violence.

Four of the US soldiers were killed in different areas of the Iraqi capital in separate gun attacks yesterday, military officials said.

Another four died in a roadside bomb attack on their patrol north-east of the city last night, while the ninth soldier was killed on Sunday.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 01:12 pm
THIS IS WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE!

ICT are waging war against non-combatants.

ICT are enemies of humanity.

ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al).


Protectors of non-combatants are waging war against ICT to end ICT's war against non-combatants.

ICT are waging war against Israeli, Iraqi, Afghan, and American non-combatants.

Israeli, Iraqi, Afghan, and American protectors of non-combatants are waging war against ICT to end ICT's war against Israeli, Iraqi, Afghan, and American non-combatants.

ICT must be exterminated, because ICT's evil is not negotiable.


ICT are a deadly malignancy that will continue to metastasize until exterminated.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 01:16 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
So, basically, anyone we decide to take, anywhere, at any time, can be put through any sort of inquistion that we deem neccessary, to provide information, is your argument - regardless of whether or not there is any evidence that they either worked against America in any way, or not?

Cycloptichorn

No!

Quote:
anyone we decide to take, anywhere, at any time,

Any person our military combatants take prisoner at any time can legally be incarcerated until hostilities end. Obviously, any such person must be co-located in the same area at the same time as the military combatants who take that person prisoner. The only evidence that need be provided is the statement by those military combatants that they think the prisoner may be a member of the enemy.

That is the way wars have been conducted throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

Quote:
any sort of inquistion that we deem neccessary, to provide information

Any inquisition that does not kill, maim, injure or disable a prisoner is permissible. The military interrogators select those prisoners to interrogate based on information they obtain from captors of those prisoners and based on the judgment of the interrogators.

As a practical matter, few prisoners of war are actually interrogated. There are usually too many prisoners, too little time, and too few competent interrogators. So interrogators select those they think are most likely to possess information which can save lives. They stop interrogating prisoners they subsequently decide do not possess information which can save lives.


You don't seem to realize that many of our prisoners aren't captured by US soldiers at all. How do we determine whether or not someone should be interrogated? Is it whoever we want? Who checks up on this? How is it clear to the Iraqi people/other Muslims that we aren't just rounding people up and interrogating/torturing at our discretion?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 02:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...

You don't seem to realize that many of our prisoners aren't captured by US soldiers at all.

All of our prisoners were captured by US soldiers. All of the British prisoners were captured by British soldiers. All of the Iraqi prisoners were captured by Iraqi soldiers. All of the Afghani prisoners were captured by Afghani soldiers.

How do we determine whether or not someone should be interrogated? Is it whoever we want? Who checks up on this?

I don't know how professional interrogators determine whether someone should be interrogated. I do know that they are highly motivated to not waste their time interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives. The management of the interrogators (e.g., their superior officers) and the CIA check up on this. The managers of interrogators are also highly motivated to not waste the time of interrogators interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives.

How is it clear to the Iraqi people/other Muslims that we aren't just rounding people up and interrogating/torturing at our discretion?

I seriously doubt that "it is clear to the Iraqi people/other Muslims that we aren't just rounding people up and interrogating/torturing at our discretion." American leflibs, among others, are doing their damnedest to convince the Iraqi people/other Muslims that we are just rounding people up and interrogating/torturing at our discretion. We will begin to convince the Iraqi/Muslim people we are to be trusted when we abandon our half-assed way of fighting this war and pursue the covert and overt tactics I recommended.

Cycloptichorn


To end the Iraq war we must win it or lose it. The price of winning it is high. The price of losing it is higher. I favor ending it by winning it. Unless a large majority of Americans favor the same and repeatedly say so, we are going to end this war by losing it.

Because of our limitations in our ability to determine who is an enemy combatant or an enemy combatant tolerator, and who are neither, we will unfortunately mistakenly kill many of those who are neither. If avoiding that becomes our military's primary constraint in fighting the Iraq war, we will lose the Iraq war.

"War is hell!" Always has been! Always will be! If there were a real, different workable alternative way to end this war without losing it, I'd favor it.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 02:10 pm
Quote:


All of our prisoners were captured by US soldiers. All of the British prisoners were captured by British soldiers. All of the Iraqi prisoners were captured by Iraqi soldiers. All of the Afghani prisoners were captured by Afghani soldiers.


This is 100% false. We currently have in our custody many prisoners who were not captured by any US soldier.

How you can repeat such things with a straight face...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 02:23 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:


All of our prisoners were captured by US soldiers. All of the British prisoners were captured by British soldiers. All of the Iraqi prisoners were captured by Iraqi soldiers. All of the Afghani prisoners were captured by Afghani soldiers.


This is 100% false. We currently have in our custody many prisoners who were not captured by any US soldier.

How you can repeat such things with a straight face...

Cycloptichorn

Provide me some reliable evidence to support your allegation: "We currently have in our custody many prisoners who were not captured by any US soldier."

Until you provide such evidence, I'll assume you cannot.

However, whether you can or cannot provide such evidence, please tell me why you think it matters whether or not we do hold some prisoners who were not captured by American soldiers.

This statement in my previous post is true regardless:
Quote:
I don't know how professional interrogators determine whether someone should be interrogated. I do know that they are highly motivated to not waste their time interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives. The management of the interrogators (e.g., their superior officers) and the CIA check up on this. The managers of interrogators are also highly motivated to not waste the time of interrogators interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 02:36 pm
What about those who were captured by the Pakistanis, or Afghan tribesmen, and turned over to the US for bounty? They certainly were not 'captured by US soldiers.' How about those captured by the CIA and sent to other countries to be tortured? The CIA are not US soldiers.

The main point behind all this is that we shouldn't be torturing innocent people. Oh, I know you say 'we don't torture,' but there is ample evidence that we have done so many times, even if it isn't 'official policy.' So how do we determine who is innocent, and who isn't, when there is no trial, or even charges levied - merely our whim?

I guess that to you, it doesn't matter if we torture or kill innocent people in pursuit of the greater good. It does to me. If we have to sink to a level of barbarism to win in Iraq, it's better that we lose, for there will be nothing left to defend from the terrorists.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 04:03 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What about those who were captured by the Pakistanis, or Afghan tribesmen, and turned over to the US for bounty? They certainly were not 'captured by US soldiers.' How about those captured by the CIA and sent to other countries to be tortured? The CIA are not US soldiers.

I agree the CIA are not US soldiers. When you can provide me reliable evidence that we hold prisoners not captured by US soldiers (e.g., captured by the CIA), I'll believe it.

Again, whether you can or cannot provide such evidence, please tell me why you think it matters whether or not we do hold some prisoners who were not captured by American soldiers.

Again, this statement in my previous post is true regardless:
Quote:
I don't know how professional interrogators determine whether someone should be interrogated. I do know that they are highly motivated to not waste their time interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives. The management of the interrogators (e.g., their superior officers) and the CIA check up on this. The managers of interrogators are also highly motivated to not waste the time of interrogators interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives.



The main point behind all this is that we shouldn't be torturing innocent people. Oh, I know you say 'we don't torture,' but there is ample evidence that we have done so many times, even if it isn't 'official policy.' So how do we determine who is innocent, and who isn't, when there is no trial, or even charges levied - merely our whim?

For prisoners in our custody, we use our best judgment.

Again, this statement in my previous post is true regardless:
Quote:
I don't know how professional interrogators determine whether someone should be interrogated. I do know that they are highly motivated to not waste their time interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives. The management of the interrogators (e.g., their superior officers) and the CIA check up on this. The managers of interrogators are also highly motivated to not waste the time of interrogators interogating prisoners who do not possess information that can save lives.


I guess that to you, it doesn't matter if we torture or kill innocent people in pursuit of the greater good. It does to me. If we have to sink to a level of barbarism to win in Iraq, it's better that we lose, for there will be nothing left to defend from the terrorists.

By USA governments as well as by the governments of other democracies, for more than a hundred years, innocent people have been mistakenly killed or incarcerated "in pursuit of the greater good": that is, the protection of many, many, ... many more innocent who would otherwise be killed, maimed, injured or disabled should we have refused to risk pursuing that greater good. So the level we humans have sunk to in democracies is a level far less than perfection, but there has so far been much remaining for us to defend against any who who would take away from us that which we have nonetheless managed to obtain and hold on to.

Cycloptichorn


Finally, we have come to that very fundamental question in our discussion:

Should we humans do or not do what is necessary for the survival of humanity at a level much, much .... much less than perfection, but is a whole lot better than nothing?

Please forgive my propensity to discuss this in terms of mathematical concepts. If you choose to object on that basis to what I shall now write, I'll subsequently try another approach.

I assume that no human sired by a human and borne by a human has ever been perfect.

I see humans based on their actions as distributed along a spectrum of goodness from more than absolutely rotten to less than absolutely perfect. I see indiviual actions and nations the same way.

So consider this logarithmic scale for humans or human organizations from 0.001 -- most rotten, but not zero or absolutely rotten -- to 1,000 -- most good, but not infinity or absolutely perfect.

0.001------------------------------1---------------------------------1,000.

I label our enemy X, ourselves Y, and the most righteous humans Z.

0.001----------------X----------Y----1-----Z----------------------------1,000.

Now change those labels to X our enemy's actions, Y our actions, and Z the actions of the most righteous.

Let aggressive interrogation exclude killing, maiming, disabling, and injuring.

I think that if our actions do not include our aggressively interrogating our prisoners, not really knowing, based on a legal trial, which are enemy and which are innocent, our position will change to Y'. I say it will be less than Y because of those we would have failed to protect, including ourselves.

0.001----------------X------Y'----Y----1-----Z--------------------------1,000.

I suspect you see this spectrum quite differently. I apologize in advance if I am wrong.

0.001----------Y'--------------------1-----XY-------------------------Z-1,000.

In otherwords, you see little difference if any in the relative goodness of our enemy and ourselves, and you see that we reduce ourselves to much less than our enemy if we do include our aggressively interrogating our prisoners not really knowing, based on a legal trial, which are enemy and which are innocent.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 07/13/2025 at 10:29:32