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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 01:41 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
... but Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Ba'ath party are not a part of Al Qaeda. Neither is Iran.

Cycloptichorn


Damn, Laughing we agree on something! Alas, Cyclo, I do agree with my above excerpt from your previous post!

I never alleged that Hamas, Hezbollah, the Ba'ath party (in Syria and/or in Iraq), and/or Iran's government are part of Al Qaeda.

I have repeatedly defined: ICT = Islama Caliphate Totalitarians (e.g., al-Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists, et al). They all have in common:

ICT are evil enemies of humanity.

ICT are waging war against non-combatants.

ICT are waging war against Israeli, Iraqi and Afghan non-combatants.

ICT are waging war against American non-combatants.

ICT must be exterminated, because ICT's evil is not negotiable.

By the way that et al in my definition of ICT was meant to include Iran's current government among others.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 01:47 pm
Quote:
US denies closely linking Saddam to Zarqawi Tue Sep 12, 6:24 PM ET

The White House denied ever linking Saddam Hussein and Jordanian-born extremist Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi in "direct, operational" ties before the March 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq.

"There was no direct, operational relationship, but there was a relationship," spokesman Tony Snow told reporters, defending nearly four years of rhetoric closely linking Iraq and Al-Qaeda fighters to justify the war.

"They were in the country, and I think you understand that the Iraqis knew they were there. That's the relationship," said the spokesman.

WOW! That's a BIG relationship.

Asked whether the extent of the relationship was that Saddam knew that Zarqawi and Al-Qaeda fighters were on Iraqi soil, Snow replied: "That's pretty much it."

As recently as August 21, US President George W. Bush defended the war by saying that Saddam had the ability to make weapons of mass destruction and "had relations with Zarqawi."

Faced with a subsequent US Senate report that there were no ties between them, Snow countered that Bush "has never said that there was a direct, operational relationship between the two."


The report from the Senate Intelligence Committee disclosed for the first time an October 2005 CIA determination that, before the war, Saddam's government "did not have a relationship, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi and his associates."

"Did not harbor." Do you know what that means ican?

Before the war, however, Bush and top aides frequently cited Zarqawi as he sought to convince the world of a relationship between Saddam's regime and the Al-Qaeda network behind the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

But they were generally careful not to do more than imply that Baghdad knew he was operating in northeastern Iraq -- outside Saddam's control -- had refused to apprehend him, and was generally "harboring" him.

Couldn't apprehend him if he was outside of his control. Know what would have happened to Saddams troops if they went in that area? We would have bombed him.

Notice before the war they lied and said Saddam was harboring him. They can't say that now. That lie has been exposed.


Then-US secretary of state Colin Powell, making the case for war to the UN Security Council in February 2003, cited him as the central piece of evidence for a "potentially much more sinister nexus" between Iraq and Al-Qaeda.

"There was a relationship in this sense: Zarqawi was in Iraq; Al-Qaeda members were in Iraq; they were operating, and in some cases, operating freely from Iraq. Zarqawi, for instance, directed the assassination of an American diplomat in Amman, Jordan," said Snow.

But this does not justify invasion. If Bush wanted Zarqawi out he could have done it himself. But he didn't. WHY?????????

"But they did they have a corner office at the Mukhabarat? No," he said, referring to Saddam's feared secret police. "Were they getting a line item in Saddam's budget? No."

Zarqawi was killed in a US air strike in Iraq in June.


Alright ican, now that your up to date, can you please explain to me why Bush was protecting Zarqawi? Why didn't he kill him when he had the chance?
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 01:54 pm
Quote:
New Woodward Book Details Multiple Bush Cover-Ups Over Iraq

The Washington Post's Bob Woodward is set to release "State of Denial," the third in his series of books documenting the inner workings of the Bush administration. Woodward will discuss some notable revelations in the book this Sunday on 60 Minutes. Key highlights:

Bush is covering up the extent of violence against U.S. troops in Iraq:

According to Woodward, insurgent attacks against coalition troops occur, on average, every 15 minutes, a shocking fact the administration has kept secret. "It's getting to the point now where there are eight-, nine-hundred attacks a week. That's more than 100 a day. That is four an hour attacking our forces," says Woodward.

Intelligence shows Iraq violence will worsen in 2007:

0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 02:54 pm
xingu wrote:
Quote:
US denies closely linking Saddam to Zarqawi Tue Sep 12, 6:24 PM ET

The White House denied ever linking Saddam Hussein and Jordanian-born extremist Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi in "direct, operational" ties before the March 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq.

[ican writes: Golly gee, we agree again. Listen up! I agree!

All I have claimed is that despite the USA's requests, Saddam did not attempt, prior to our invasion of Iraq, to extradite Zarqawi or any other of the leadership of Ansar al-Islam (federated with al-Qaeda). I inferred from that, had we not invaded Iraq, that Saddam would not subsequently attempt to extradite Zarqawi or any other of the leadership of Ansar al-Islam (federated with al-Qaeda); and, consequently, al-Qaeda would grow in Iraq at least as fast as it did in Afghanistan. ]


"There was no direct, operational relationship, but there was a relationship," spokesman Tony Snow told reporters, defending nearly four years of rhetoric closely linking Iraq and Al-Qaeda fighters to justify the war.

"They were in the country, and I think you understand that the Iraqis knew they were there. That's the relationship," said the spokesman.

...

Asked whether the extent of the relationship was that Saddam knew that Zarqawi and Al-Qaeda fighters were on Iraqi soil, Snow replied: "That's pretty much it."

As recently as August 21, US President George W. Bush defended the war by saying that Saddam had the ability to make weapons of mass destruction and "had relations with Zarqawi."

[ican writes: Oh my God, Crying or Very sad George Bush was wrong! Saddam had no operational relationship with al-Qaeda. Saddam did not harbor al-Qaeda!

I don't give a damn how George Bush defended the war!

What the hell is it with you? What has that got to do with what I have repeatedly alleged?

All I have claimed is that despite the USA's requests, Saddam did not attempt, prior to or after our invasion of Iraq, to extradite Zarqawi or any other of the leadership of Ansar al-Islam (federated with al-Qaeda). I inferred from that, had we not invaded Iraq, that Saddam would not subsequently attempt to extradite Zarqawi or any other of the leadership of Ansar al-Islam (federated with al-Qaeda); and, consequently, al-Qaeda would grow in Iraq at least as fast as it grew in Afghanistan.]


...
But they were generally careful not to do more than imply that Baghdad knew he was operating in northeastern Iraq -- outside Saddam's control -- had refused to apprehend him, and was generally "harboring" him.

[Cyclo wrote: Couldn't apprehend him if he was outside of his control. Know what would have happened to Saddams troops if they went in that area? We would have bombed him. ... ]

[Ican writes: That's so absurd that I can barely ....... MMMMM ......... Where's your mind?

No we would not have bombed him (i.e., his troops) after having repeatedly asked him to extradite Zarqawi from there. That would have been mindless beyond comprehension.]



Then-US secretary of state Colin Powell, making the case for war to the UN Security Council in February 2003, cited him as the central piece of evidence for a "potentially much more sinister nexus" between Iraq and Al-Qaeda.

"There was a relationship in this sense: Zarqawi was in Iraq; Al-Qaeda members were in Iraq; they were operating, and in some cases, operating freely from Iraq. Zarqawi, for instance, directed the assassination of an American diplomat in Amman, Jordan," said Snow.

[Cyclo wrote: But this does not justify invasion. If Bush wanted Zarqawi out he could have done it himself. But he didn't. WHY?????????

...

Zarqawi was killed in a US air strike in Iraq in June.]


Alright ican, now that your up to date, can you please explain to me why Bush was protecting Zarqawi? Why didn't he kill him when he had the chance?


Five explanations for why Bush did not earlier go after Zarqawi. Pick the one or more you prefer:

(1) Bush is a damn fool.

(2) Bush foolishly delayed invasion of Iraq in his foolish effort to get UN approval for such.

(3) Bush was foolish enough to believe that he couldn't take out al-Qaeda from the air, merely because Clinton-who-tried was unable to do that to al-Qaeda in Afghanistan.

(4) Bush did not think he could take out al-Qaeda from the air without "boots on the ground", and since boots on the ground constituted an invasion of Iraq, he needed Congressional approval that he didn't get until October 16, 2002.

(5) Bush invaded Iraq to remove al-Qaeda, to remove Saddam's regime, and to replace Saddam's regime with a government that would not allow/tolerate/permit al-Qaeda to again obtain sanctuary in Iraq (Obviously there is lots more work to do to finally achieve all of this objective).
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 03:00 pm
Quote:

[Cyclo wrote: But this does not justify invasion. If Bush wanted Zarqawi out he could have done it himself. But he didn't. WHY?????????


Um, I didn't actually write anything about Zarqawi.

But, I did write this:
Quote:

[Cyclo wrote: Couldn't apprehend him if he was outside of his control. Know what would have happened to Saddams troops if they went in that area? We would have bombed him. ... ]

[Ican writes: That's so absurd that I can barely ....... MMMMM ......... Where's your mind?

No we would not have bombed him (i.e., his troops) after having repeatedly asked him to extradite Zarqawi from there. That would have been mindless beyond comprehension.]


What would have been mindless beyond comparison? That Bushco. were looking for an excuse to invade Iraq?

Why would his moving troops and aircraft (hey, gotta use overwhelming force, it's our own doctrine innit) into a zone which he was specifically prohibited from going, one in which we never told Saddam he could go - your assertions that we gave him 'permission' don't really hold any water, as the UN most certainly did not, and they were the ones who instituted the no-fly zone in the first place - not have been a reason for warfare?

More importantly, why would that have been seen as being more mindless than invading for a bunch of goddamned non-existent WMD?!?!?!?!?

Face it, Bush wanted to invade Iraq regardless of what Saddam did. Short of leaving the country and abdicating his role as president/dictator, we were going to invade. Regardless of justification. We just made up the justifications we need. I suspect that deep down you realize that this is true.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 03:03 pm
xingu wrote:
Quote:
New Woodward Book Details Multiple Bush Cover-Ups Over Iraq

The Washington Post’s Bob Woodward is set to release “State of Denial,” the third in his series of books documenting the inner workings of the Bush administration. Woodward will discuss some notable revelations in the book this Sunday on 60 Minutes.
...
President Bush is absolutely certain that he has the U.S. and Iraq on the right course, says Woodward. So certain is the president on this matter, Woodward says, that when Mr. Bush had key Republicans to the White House to discuss Iraq, he told them, “I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me.”
...

I sincerely hope Bush keeps his word regardless of how bad things really are in Iraq now. We ust win this war. We must do all that is necessary and sufficient to win this war.

Suppose you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Bush cannot achieve that objective. Then we must achieve it with his replacement.

By the way, you and others here seem to be intent on showing Bush is a failure, while I'm intent on showing how we can succeed in Iraq regardless of whether Bush is a failure.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 03:06 pm
Quote:

By the way, you and others here seem to be intent on showing Bush is a failure, while I'm intent on showing how we can succeed in Iraq regardless of whether Bush is a failure.


And for this, I actually salute you, because your job is far, far more difficult than ours.

How do you think we can win in Iraq, at this point? I realize that you may have answered this a few pages back, and gotten lost in the shuffle of posts, but can you give us a few short sentences on the best-case scenario and what is neccessary to acheive it?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 03:11 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

...
How do you think we can win in Iraq, at this point? I realize that you may have answered this a few pages back, and gotten lost in the shuffle of posts, but can you give us a few short sentences on the best-case scenario and what is neccessary to acheive it?

Cycloptichorn

Please standby! I'll reply after I run an errand.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 03:52 pm
Cyclo, I'll start with this:

Quote:
Bush Makes Public Parts of Report on Terrorism
By BRIAN KNOWLTON International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON, Sept. 26 --

...

"The Iraqi jihad is shaping a new generation of terrorist leaders and operatives; perceived jihadist success there would inspire more fighters to continue the struggle elsewhere," the excerpts said.

...

The excerpts from the intelligence report pointed to a spread of terrorist activity globally for at least the next five years and said terrorists were adapting to the tactics used against them. "If this trend continues, threats to U.S. interests at home and abroad will become more diverse, leading to increasing attacks worldwide," they said.

...

"The Iraq conflict has become the 'cause célèbre' for jihadists, breeding a deep resentment of U.S. involvement in the Muslim world and cultivating supporters for the global jihadist movement" the declassified document said. "Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight."

...

The document asserted that American-led counterterrorism efforts had seriously damaged the leadership of Al Qaeda and disrupted its operations. "However, we judge that Al Qaeda will continue to pose the greatest threat to the homeland and U.S. interests abroad by a single terrorist organization," it said.

...

The report cites four factors fueling the spread of Islamic militancy: "entrenched grievances and a sense of powerlessness; the Iraq "jihad"; the slow pace of reform in Muslim nations;" and "pervasive anti-U.S. sentiment among most Muslims."

...
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 04:16 pm
Quote:
"Should jihadists leaving Iraq perceive themselves, and be perceived, to have failed, we judge fewer fighters will be inspired to carry on the fight."


OBJECTIVE I.
Get the Iraqi jihadists (I call 'em ICT) to the point were they perceive they have failed.

1. Initiate an unrestrained covert and overt war on the ICT in Iraq.
2. Incarcerate captured ICT without trial until hostilities have ended.
3. Convince a large majority of the American people that the survival of their posterity requires them to unite behind this effort.

Quote:
The report cites four factors fueling the spread of Islamic militancy: "entrenched grievances and a sense of powerlessness; the Iraq "jihad"; the slow pace of reform in Muslim nations;" and "pervasive anti-U.S. sentiment among most Muslims."


OBJECTIVE II.
Help the Iraqi people lose their sense of powerlessness.
1. Hire Iraqi people to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure.
2. Hire Iraqi people to protect the rebuilding of their infrastructure.
3. Convince a large majority of the Iraqi people that the survival of their posterity requires them to unite behind these efforts.



-- More to come --
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 04:25 pm
Lott does it again.



Quote:
Sen. Trent Lott (R-MS), who famously suggested the U.S. wouldn't have "all these problems" had Strom Thurmond been elected President, said today that the religious differences among Iraqis makes the conflict very difficult for him to understand:

"It's hard for Americans, all of us, including me, to understand what's wrong with these people," he said. "Why do they kill people of other religions because of religion? Why do they hate the Israeli's and despise their right to exist? Why do they hate each other? Why do Sunnis kill Shiites? How do they tell the difference? They all look the same to me."

Speaking shortly after a meeting with President Bush and Vice President Cheney, Lott added that Iraq wasn't among the White House's priorities.

"No, none of that," Lott told reporters after the session when asked if the Iraq war was discussed. "You're [the media] the only ones who obsess on that. We don't and the real people out in the real world don't for the most part."


I bet the relatives of the service men and women in Iraq really appreciate that only the media (which is a lie)obsess about Iraq.

Quote:
As of Tuesday, Sept. 26, 2006, at least 2,701 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven military civilians. At least 2,152 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers.


source

Not to mention all the Iraqis who are dying in Iraq every single day.

Quote:
Nearly 7,000 civilians were killed in Iraq in the past two months, according to a UN report just released - a record high that is far greater than initial estimates had suggested. As American generals in Baghdad warned that the violence could worsen in the run up to Ramadan next Monday, the UN spoke of a "grave sectarian crisis" gripping the country.
With known Iraqi deaths running at more than 100 a day because of sectarian murders, al-Qaida and nationalist insurgent attacks, and fatalities inflicted by the multinational forces, the UN said its total was likely to be "on the low side" because of the difficulties of collecting accurate figures. In particular, it said that no deaths were reported from the violent region covering Ramadi and Falluja.


source

But hey, why obsess over it, they all look alike anyway. Rolling Eyes Sad
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 04:52 pm
OBJECTIVE I.
Get the Iraqi jihadists (I call 'em ICT) to the point were they perceive they have failed.

1. Initiate an unrestrained covert and overt war on the ICT in Iraq.

a. covert war:
..... i. announce this covert war to the Iraqi people;
..... ii. use terrifying, humiliating, fatiguing, discomforting, and kind,
.......... interrogation of prisoners to learn locations in Iraq where
.......... the ICT and its ordnance are being harbored;
..... iii. request Iraqi non-combatants report these locations in
.......... Iraq where the ICT and its ordnance are being harbored;
..... iv. transfer Iraqi non-combatants from the neighborhoods of
.......... these locations to safer locations;
..... v. exterminate the ICT in these locations by destroying those
.......... locations including their neighborhoods.

b. overt war:


-- more to come --
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Sep, 2006 11:53 pm
http://i10.tinypic.com/2vxlnvd.jpg

Senior military officers have been pressing the government to withdraw British troops from Iraq and concentrate on what they now regard as a more worthwhile and winnable battleground in Afghanistan. They believe there is a limit to what British soldiers can achieve in southern Iraq and that it is time the Iraqis took responsibility for their own security, defence sources say.

Take UK troops out of Iraq, senior military told ministers

Senior US officials have accused the new Iraqi government - which they previously championed - of failing to deal with the scourge of sectarian death squads, which are dragging the country into civil war.

US: Iraq failing to tackle death squads
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 06:05 am
Quote:
Leo Strauss' Philosophy of Deception
By Jim Lobe, AlterNet
Posted on May 19, 2003, Printed on September 29, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/

What would you do if you wanted to topple Saddam Hussein, but your intelligence agencies couldn't find the evidence to justify a war?

A follower of Leo Strauss may just hire the "right" kind of men to get the job done - people with the intellect, acuity, and, if necessary, the political commitment, polemical skills, and, above all, the imagination to find the evidence that career intelligence officers could not detect.

The "right" man for Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, suggests Seymour Hersh in his recent New Yorker article entitled 'Selective Intelligence,' was Abram Shulsky, director of the Office of Special Plans (OSP) - an agency created specifically to find the evidence of WMDs and/or links with Al Qaeda, piece it together, and clinch the case for the invasion of Iraq.

Like Wolfowitz, Shulsky is a student of an obscure German Jewish political philosopher named Leo Strauss who arrived in the United States in 1938. Strauss taught at several major universities, including Wolfowitz and Shulsky's alma mater, the University of Chicago, before his death in 1973.

Strauss is a popular figure among the neoconservatives. Adherents of his ideas include prominent figures both within and outside the administration. They include 'Weekly Standard' editor William Kristol; his father and indeed the godfather of the neoconservative movement, Irving Kristol; the new Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Stephen Cambone, a number of senior fellows at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) (home to former Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle and Lynne Cheney), and Gary Schmitt, the director of the influential Project for the New American Century (PNAC), which is chaired by Kristol the Younger.

Strauss' philosophy is hardly incidental to the strategy and mindset adopted by these men - as is obvious in Shulsky's 1999 essay titled "Leo Strauss and the World of Intelligence (By Which We Do Not Mean Nous)" (in Greek philosophy the term nous denotes the highest form of rationality). As Hersh notes in his article, Shulsky and his co-author Schmitt "criticize America's intelligence community for its failure to appreciate the duplicitous nature of the regimes it deals with, its susceptibility to social-science notions of proof, and its inability to cope with deliberate concealment." They argued that Strauss's idea of hidden meaning, "alerts one to the possibility that political life may be closely linked to deception. Indeed, it suggests that deception is the norm in political life, and the hope, to say nothing of the expectation, of establishing a politics that can dispense with it is the exception."

Rule One: Deception
It's hardly surprising then why Strauss is so popular in an administration obsessed with secrecy, especially when it comes to matters of foreign policy. Not only did Strauss have few qualms about using deception in politics, he saw it as a necessity. While professing deep respect for American democracy, Strauss believed that societies should be hierarchical - divided between an elite who should lead, and the masses who should follow. But unlike fellow elitists like Plato, he was less concerned with the moral character of these leaders. According to Shadia Drury, who teaches politics at the University of Calgary, Strauss believed that "those who are fit to rule are those who realize there is no morality and that there is only one natural right - the right of the superior to rule over the inferior."

This dichotomy requires "perpetual deception" between the rulers and the ruled, according to Drury. Robert Locke, another Strauss analyst says, "The people are told what they need to know and no more." While the elite few are capable of absorbing the absence of any moral truth, Strauss thought, the masses could not cope. If exposed to the absence of absolute truth, they would quickly fall into nihilism or anarchy, according to Drury, author of 'Leo Strauss and the American Right' (St. Martin's 1999).

This brings up the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE). It was classified. Why? Because it gave a negative view of the Bush administration and its war in Iraq. What was Bush's comment on the NEI being leaked?

He added that media accounts of the leak of the intelligence report were meant to "create confusion in the minds of the American people" and promised to push Director of National Security John Negroponte to declassify the findings so "everyone can draw their own conclusions."

That's right, it creates confusion with the publics mind. To prevent this "confusion" all information must be filtered, censored or classified. Only the "correct" information, that which supports Bush and his policies, should be allowed to be made public.

It's un-American to confuse the public.


Second Principle: Power of Religion
According to Drury, Strauss had a "huge contempt" for secular democracy. Nazism, he believed, was a nihilistic reaction to the irreligious and liberal nature of the Weimar Republic. Among other neoconservatives, Irving Kristol has long argued for a much greater role for religion in the public sphere, even suggesting that the Founding Fathers of the American Republic made a major mistake by insisting on the separation of church and state. And why? Because Strauss viewed religion as absolutely essential in order to impose moral law on the masses who otherwise would be out of control.

At the same time, he stressed that religion was for the masses alone; the rulers need not be bound by it. Indeed, it would be absurd if they were, since the truths proclaimed by religion were "a pious fraud." As Ronald Bailey, science correspondent for Reason magazine points out, "Neoconservatives are pro-religion even though they themselves may not be believers."

"Secular society in their view is the worst possible thing," Drury says, because it leads to individualism, liberalism, and relativism, precisely those traits that may promote dissent that in turn could dangerously weaken society's ability to cope with external threats. Bailey argues that it is this firm belief in the political utility of religion as an "opiate of the masses" that helps explain why secular Jews like Kristol in 'Commentary' magazine and other neoconservative journals have allied themselves with the Christian Right and even taken on Darwin's theory of evolution.

Third Principle: Aggressive Nationalism
Like Thomas Hobbes, Strauss believed that the inherently aggressive nature of human beings could only be restrained by a powerful nationalistic state. "Because mankind is intrinsically wicked, he has to be governed," he once wrote. "Such governance can only be established, however, when men are united - and they can only be united against other people."

Not surprisingly, Strauss' attitude toward foreign policy was distinctly Machiavellian. "Strauss thinks that a political order can be stable only if it is united by an external threat," Drury wrote in her book. "Following Machiavelli, he maintained that if no external threat exists then one has to be manufactured (emphases added)."

"Perpetual war, not perpetual peace, is what Straussians believe in," says Drury. The idea easily translates into, in her words, an "aggressive, belligerent foreign policy," of the kind that has been advocated by neocon groups like PNAC and AEI scholars - not to mention Wolfowitz and other administration hawks who have called for a world order dominated by U.S. military power. Strauss' neoconservative students see foreign policy as a means to fulfill a "national destiny" - as Irving Kristol defined it already in 1983 - that goes far beyond the narrow confines of a "myopic national security."

As to what a Straussian world order might look like, the analogy was best captured by the philosopher himself in one of his - and student Allen Bloom's - many allusions to Gulliver's Travels. In Drury's words, "When Lilliput was on fire, Gulliver urinated over the city, including the palace. In so doing, he saved all of Lilliput from catastrophe, but the Lilliputians were outraged and appalled by such a show of disrespect."

The image encapsulates the neoconservative vision of the United States' relationship with the rest of the world - as well as the relationship between their relationship as a ruling elite with the masses. "They really have no use for liberalism and democracy, but they're conquering the world in the name of liberalism and democracy," Drury says.


This pretty much explains why we're in Iraq and will probably attack Iran.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 08:37 am
Quote:
This pretty much explains why we're in Iraq and will probably attack Iran.


I am hoping that attacking Iran is just a wishful fantasy of the Bush administration and its various supporting war hawks that never materializes.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 08:59 am
revel wrote:
Quote:
This pretty much explains why we're in Iraq and will probably attack Iran.


I am hoping that attacking Iran is just a wishful fantasy of the Bush administration and its various supporting war hawks that never materializes.


I hoping too but people like Bush who place ideology over common sense can't be expected to behave in a rational manner. We've seen that in Iraq. I don't think thay have learned anything from Iraq.

But we can hope.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 11:11 am
xingu wrote:
revel wrote:
Quote:
This pretty much explains why we're in Iraq and will probably attack Iran.


I am hoping that attacking Iran is just a wishful fantasy of the Bush administration and its various supporting war hawks that never materializes.


I hoping too but people like Bush who place ideology over common sense can't be expected to behave in a rational manner. We've seen that in Iraq. I don't think thay have learned anything from Iraq.

But we can hope.


I hear what you are saying, but it just seems like we are not in as a position to attack Iran as we were Iraq on a lot of fronts.

It seems like more experts and military people are more ready to speak out against attacking Iran more than they were Iraq; maybe because they have seen the horrible results of silent acceptance. I don't think we could get the British or those bribed coalition partners with this time. They have witnessed the mess we have made with Iraq. Why would they sign themselves on to another failure? We would have to pull our troops out of Iraq in order to attack Iran. What would Bush say, it is all right to "cut and run" to attack Iran?

The only thing left is sending nukes to Iran. I think it would be just be too horrible to send nukes to Iran, I don't think anyone other than these crazy nut jobs would accept such a thing from the united states, I think it would be the last straw. I don't think even Americans would accept sending nukes to Iran; it is just too barbarically monstrous. Like Colonel Gardiner said, "There are no good military options" in attacking Iran.


No Good Options: Why the war on Iran will fail

All these reasons are the reason why I am hoping (maybe against reasonable hope given this administration) we don't attack Iran.

Other than the fact that they signed a treaty saying that they won't develop nuclear weapons, I don't understand what makes Iran different than Pakistan or India or Israel or the United States...
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 11:17 am
Terrorists' Excuse du Jour
By Jonah Goldberg

Of course the war in Iraq has made us less safe, and I didn't need the National Intelligence Estimate to tell me so. Who could possibly deny that Iraq has become, in the words of the NIE, a "cause celebre" for jihadists? One need only read the newspaper to conclude that Iraq is spawning more terrorists. (Indeed, one fears that all the NIE authors did was clip from the newspapers.)

If you've ever stood up to a bully, you know how this works. Confrontation tends to increase the chances of violence in the short term but decreases its likelihood in the long term. Any hunter will tell you that the most dangerous moment is when you've cornered an animal, and any cop will tell you that standing up to muggers puts you in danger. American colonists were less safe for standing up to King George III, and the United States was certainly safer in the short term when we stood on the sidelines while Germany was conquering Europe. Heck, we would have been safer in the short run if we'd responded to Pearl Harbor by telling the Japanese they could have the Pacific to themselves.

After 9/11, there were voices on the left warning that an attack on Afghanistan would only perpetuate the dreaded "cycle of violence." Today, Democrats tout their support of that "good" war as proof they aren't soft on terrorism. Fair enough, I suppose. But guess what? That war made us less safe too - if the measure of such things is "creating more terrorists." A Gallup poll taken in nine Muslim nations in February 2002 found that more than three-fourths of respondents considered the liberation of Afghanistan unjustifiable. A mere 9 percent supported U.S. actions. That goes for famously moderate Turkey, where opposition to the U.S. ran three to one, and in Pakistan, where a mere one in 20 respondents took the American side.

In other words, before Iraq became the cause celebre of jihadists, Afghanistan was. Does that mean we shouldn't have toppled the Taliban?

Going back further, it's conventional wisdom that we helped "create" Osama bin Laden, or his Taliban and mujahedin comrades, when we supported the Afghan resistance to the Soviet Union. So we shouldn't have done that either?

Every serious analysis of the Islamic world today describes a genuine tectonic shift in a vast civilization, an upheaval that cuts across social, religious and demographic lines. This phenomenon dwarfs transient issues such as the Iraq war. Are we to believe that once-moderate and relatively secular Morocco is slipping toward extremism because we toppled Baathist Saddam Hussein? Do we believe that the mobs who burned Danish embassies in response to a cartoon wouldn't have done so if only President Bush had gone for the 18th, 19th or 20th U.N. resolution on Iraq? Millions of young men yearning for meaning and craving outlets for their rage would have become computer programmers and dental hygienists if only Hussein's statue still towered over central Baghdad? Would the pope's comments spark nothing but thoughtful and high-minded debate from the Arab street if only Al Gore or John Kerry were in office?

Iraq is the excuse du jour for jihadists. But the important factor is that these are young men looking for an excuse. If you live your life calculating that it's a mistake to do anything that might prompt murderers and savages to act like murderers and savages, you've basically decided to live under their thumb and surrender your civilization in the process.

For me, the truly dismaying news this week didn't come from the NIE but from the German media. A German opera house announced that it would cancel its staging of Mozart's "Idomeneo" because Berlin police concluded that staging the opera - which includes a scene in which Jesus, Buddha, Poseidon and Muhammad are beheaded - would pose an "incalculable security risk" from jihadists. Germany, recall, proudly opposed the Iraq war - but still narrowly missed a Spain-style terrorist attack on its rail system this summer.

A leading Muslim spokesman in Germany explained that he was all for free speech, as long as it didn't offend Muslims. The Germans' all-too-typical appeasement of terrorism no doubt makes them "safer" and "creates" fewer terrorists.

And all it cost them - for now - is Mozart.
____________________________________________________

I wonder who will be the first to start discussing the author or source while ignoring the content. Any bets?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 11:20 am
It won't be me.

The question isn't, 'are we uniting our enemies?'

The question is, 'are we actually accomplishing anything, while uniting our enemies?'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2006 12:54 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It won't be me.

The question isn't, 'are we uniting our enemies?'

The question is, 'are we actually accomplishing anything, while uniting our enemies?'

Cycloptichorn


Bush is accomplishing something; he's making more terrorist and getting more Americans killed.

What more could this country ask for from a president?
0 Replies
 
 

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