No, Bill, I didn't read the post until he presented a few paragraphs and a link to the rest. I don't have time to wade through 5-page long diatribes on a daily basis, but a short article with a link is perfect.
The fact that Ican posted the exact same thing, but it didn't get read by anyone until it was in short form, is evidence that I am not the only one who feels this way.
Cycloptichorn
Not a good way to win friends and influence people - especially Iraqis:
July 18, 2006
U.N. Estimates Nearly 6,000 Iraqi Civilians Died in 2 Months
By EDWARD WONG and JOHN O'NEIL
BAGHDAD, Iraq, July 18?- A new United Nations report estimates that nearly 6,000 civilians were killed in May and June as sectarian violence surged across Iraq, an announcement that was underscored by a suicide bombing that killed 53 people and wounded more than 100 in the Shiite city of Kufa today.
Combined with the killing of 48 people in a mostly Shiite market area of Mahmudiya on Tuesday by gunmen suspected of being Sunni Arabs, today's blast brings the death toll in large incidents to 150 over the last three days.
But the report released today by the United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq estimates that the death toll day in and day out for the last two months has averaged about 100. Many of the dead were found individually or in small groups, often bound and showing signs of torture before execution.
"While welcoming recent positive steps by the government to promote national reconciliation, the report raises alarm at the growing number of casualties among the civilian population killed or wounded during indiscriminate or targeted attacks by terrorists and insurgents, as well as militias and criminal groups,'' a statement issued by the mission said.
It praised the release of 2,500 prisoners as a goodwill gesture to Sunnis by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, but said there was "new evidence'' of torture in detention centers run by the Interior Ministry.
The statement also said that "sectarian violence continues to fuel displacement at an alarming pace,'' and that the killing of doctors and health workers is "crippling health services at a time when there is an increasing need for health care services as a result of the ongoing violence.''
News services said that the blast in Kufa, near Najaf, was the work of a suicide bomber who pulled a minivan into a market where day laborers had gathered and lured some on board with the promise of work.
"A man driving a Kia van with an Iraqi accent came and said, ?'I need laborers,' '' Nasir Faisal, who survived the explosion, told Reuters. "After the laborers got on and packed the vehicle he exploded the car.''
"Four of my cousins were killed,'' Mr. Faisal went on. "They were standing beside the van.''
Protesters gathered in the market afterward, calling on the government to turn security over to the Mahdi Army, a militia that pays allegiance to the Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr. Government forces have come into increasing conflict with the Mahdi Army as Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki seeks to control the spiral of sectarian killings and reprisals.
"We want the Mahdi Army to protect us!'' the protesters chanted, Reuters reported.
Earlier this month in Kufa 12 people were killed, including five Iranians, when a suicide car bomber rammed a group of pilgrims who had come to visit the shrine.
In the northern city of Kirkuk, six police officers and two civilians were killed today when a roadside bomb exploded, Iraqi officials said.
Also today, the country's national security adviser, Mowaffak al-Rubaie, said that officials had identified a Jordanian man who recently died in a clash with Iraqi forces as the person who had killed two American soldiers who were kidnapped and tortured last month, The Associated Press reported.
Mr. Rubaie did not give any details concerning the death of the man, Diyar Ismail Mahmoud, also known as Abu al-Afghani.
He also told reporters that security forces have captured the leaders of the Omar Brigade, which he called a branch of Al Qaeda dedicated to the killing of Shiite militia members.
In Ankara today, the American ambassador to Turkey warned that country that it would be "unwise'' to attack across the border into northern Iraq to pursue Kurdish guerillas, as Turkey's justice minister suggested on Monday that it might, Agence France-Presse reported.
In Baghdad, the Iraqi Islamic Party, the country's largest Sunni party, called for a meeting of "all religious authorities and political parties'' to find ways "to get Iraq out of this dark tunnel,'' The Associated Press reported.
The party denounced the killings in Kufa and Mahmudiya. "There is a horrible escalation of violence and reaction to violence,'' it said in a statement, asking Iraqis "to come to their senses instead of slipping into the abyss.''
Also today, 14 bodies were discovered near Mahmudiya, the town south of Baghdad where 48 people were killed by gunmen on Monday.
In that assault, many of the attackers, who fired assault rifles, heavy machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades, wore the uniforms of the Iraqi security forces.
Edward Wong reported from Baghdad for this article and John O'Neil from New York. Reporting was contributed from Baghdad by Qais Mizher, Mona Mahmoud and Omar al-Neami.
Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
Quote:Corruption Cited in Iraq's Oil Industry
By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 17, 2006; A12
U.S. Comptroller General David M. Walker told Congress last week that "massive corruption" and "a lot of theft going on" in Iraq's government-controlled oil industry is hampering the country's ability to govern itself.
"It took me about, you know, a second and a half to realize that, obviously, there was massive corruption going on, because the numbers just didn't add up," Walker said, referring to a trip he took to Iraq this year in which he was shown figures on oil production and revenue.
Walker, who heads the Government Accountability Office, made his remarks at a House Government Reform subcommittee meeting last Tuesday called to examine implementation of the Bush administration's 2005 "National Strategy for Victory in Iraq." He said one of the failures of the U.S. program was related to the prewar assumption that Iraq would be able to pay for its reconstruction "in large part through oil revenues."
He said about 10 percent of Iraq's refined fuels and 30 percent of its imported fuels are being stolen, in part because the subsidized Iraqi price of gasoline, about 44 cents a gallon, is less than half the regional price of 90 cents a gallon. "That provides a tremendous incentive to be able to steal these fuels and be able to sell them for whatever purposes, corruption or otherwise," Walker said.
Walker noted that oil production, which was to provide prime support to the new government, is below prewar production and distribution levels, complicated by the insurgency and difficulties in maintaining the aging oil infrastructure.
Another GAO official, Joseph Christoff, director of international affairs and trade, pointed out that the Iraqi budget is paying for "what some could contend to be a bloated bureaucracy, primarily because oftentimes you don't know who is working in the different ministries -- there are ghost employees."
Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.), chairman of the subcommittee on national security, said the hearing was held to determine "whether we had and have a strategy and to what extent that strategy is meeting the needs of our engagement in Iraq."
The GAO report criticized the administration's strategy for not identifying which U.S. agencies are responsible for implementation, for not integrating U.S. goals and objectives with the Iraqi government and for failing to identify future costs.
James Jeffrey of the State Department's Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs also testified at the hearing. "The organization roles have been as clear as I have ever seen," he said, but he acknowledged, "Of course there are disputes." He said the GAO was correct in saying that "we haven't been able to align our goals, our resources and such fully with the Iraqis," but he added: "That's because we have not had a long-term Iraqi government."
He said the reconstruction program, which involved the Defense Department, the State Department and the Agency for International Development, was, at $21.9 billion, "the largest . . . since the Marshall Plan." He said that prewar assumptions that "there would be a permissive security environment that would allow reconstruction to go forward" turned out to be wrong along with the estimate "that the Iraqi government would make important contributions to the reconstruction effort."
As a result, Jeffrey said, "we shifted billions of dollars from longer-term infrastructure into shorter-term projects -- primarily security, but also democracy programs."
But "without security," he said, "you really can't do anything or enough on the political and economic tracks. However . . . the solution to the security situation is not military but political."
Walker's GAO report criticized the administration's failure to identify "current and future costs" or "the sources of funding needed to achieve U.S. political security and economic objectives in Iraq."
The report concludes that neither the Defense Department nor Congress "can reliably determine the costs of the war, nor do they have details on how appropriated funds are being spent or historical data useful in considering future funding needs." He said it costs about $1.5 billion a week for U.S. military operations, reconstruction and support for Iraqi forces.
Walker said that although the administration "has resisted for several years providing cost estimates longer than one year in advance, there is a basis to come up with some estimates."
The Congressional Budget Office last week released its estimate of potential spending requirements for Iraq in the fiscal years 2007 to 2016 based on scenarios where there was either a rapid or slow drawdown of U.S. forces. In the case of rapid withdrawal -- troops out by 2009 -- the CBO estimated an additional $166 billion would be needed for military operations, on top of $290 billion already allocated. For a slower withdrawal, where 40,000 troops stay through 2016, it would cost $368 billion, said the CBO.
Corruption? Bush administration?
Goes together like a horse and carriage.
Ican, your Iraq Body Count seems to be a little, shall we say, incorrect these days.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/iraq.main/index.html
Quote: U.N.: 14,000 Iraqis killed in 2006
Holy city bomb kills 45; Armed robbers hit Baghdad bank
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- More than 14,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq in the first half of this year, an ominous figure reflecting the fact that "killings, kidnappings and torture remain widespread" in the war-torn country, a United Nations report says.
Killings of civilians are on "an upward trend," with more than 5,800 deaths and more than 5,700 injuries reported in May and June alone, it says.
The report, a bimonthly document produced by the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq, covers May and June, and includes chilling casualty figures and ugly anecdotes from the insurgent and sectarian warfare that continues to rage despite the establishment of a national unity government and a security crackdown in Baghdad.
The report lists examples of bloody suicide bombs aimed at mosques, attacks on laborers, the recovery of slain bodies, the assassinations of judges, the killings of prisoners, the targeting of clergy -- all incidents dutifully reported by media over these three-plus years of chaos in the streets.
The U.N. agency says it has been made aware since last year of the targeting of homosexuals, "increasingly threatened and extra-judicially executed by militias and 'death squads' because of their sexual orientation."
The intolerance propelling the anti-gay prejudice extends to ethnic and religious minorities and others whose manner of dress doesn't meet the standards of religious extremists.
"On 28 May, an Iraqi tennis coach and two of his players were shot dead in Baghdad allegedly because they were wearing shorts. Similar threats are said to be made to induce men to conform to certain hair styles or rules regarding facial hair," the report says.
Women face intolerance -- and violence -- as well.
"In some Baghdad neighborhoods, women are now prevented from going to the markets alone. In other cases, women have been warned not to drive cars or have faced harassment if they wear trousers. Women have also reported that wearing a headscarf is becoming not a matter of religious choice but one of survival in many parts of Iraq, a fact which is particularly resented by non-Muslim women."
Academics and health professionals have been attacked, spurring them to leave the country or their home regions, causing a brain drain and a dislocation in services.
"Health care providers face difficulties in carrying out their work because of the limited supply of electricity and growing number of patients due to the increase in violence," the report says.
Kidnappings have been part of the chaotic Iraqi scene since the insurgency began, with many hostages killed even after a ransom is paid. The abductors are not only motivated by sectarianism or politics; organized crime appears to be involved with some of the kidnappings.
"On some occasions, sectarian connotations and alleged collusion with sectors of the police, as well as with militias, have been reported to UNAMI. Although there are no reliable statistics regarding this phenomenon, because Iraqis often are afraid to report such crimes to the police, the kidnappings are likely a daily occurrence," the report says.
For children, the "extent of violence in areas" other than the Kurdish region "is such that likely every child, to some degree, has been exposed to it," it says.
"In one case the body of a 12-year-old Osama was reportedly found by the Iraqi police in a plastic bag after his family paid a ransom of some 30,000 U.S. dollars. The boy had been sexually assaulted by the kidnappers, before being hanged by his own clothing. The police captured members of this gang who confessed of raping and killing many boys and girls before Osama," the report says.
Cultural symbols
"Civilian casualties resulted mainly from bombings and drive-by shootings, from indiscriminate attacks, in neighborhood markets or petrol stations, or following armed clashes with the police and the security forces," the report says.
"Civilians were also targeted or became unintended victims of insurgent or military actions.
"Terrorist acts against civilians have been aimed at fomenting sectarian violence or allegedly motivated by revenge and have targeted members of the Arab Shia and Sunni communities, including their cultural symbols, as well as markets in Shia neighborhoods."
Figures from the Medico-Legal Institute in Baghdad and the Ministry of Health show that the total number of civilians killed from January to June was 14,338.
In late June, the Ministry of Health "acknowledged information stating that since 2003 at least 50,000 persons have been killed in violence and stated the number of deaths are probably under-reported." the report says.
"The Baghdad morgue reportedly received 30,204 bodies from 2003 to mid-2006. Deaths numbering 18,933 occurred from 'military clashes' and 'terrorist attacks'" between April 5, 2004, and June 1, 2006.
The report also notes the probes by the United States into the alleged killings of 24 civilians in Haditha by U.S. troops as well the deaths caused by military operations throughout the country.
Other developments
At least 45 people were killed and 60 others wounded Tuesday morning when a suicide car bomber detonated in a busy Kufa marketplace where day laborers gather, Iraqi police said.
The attack took place around 7:30 a.m. near a Shia shrine.
Kufa is considered a holy place by Shia Muslims and is just outside Najaf, about 100 miles (160 kilometers) south of Baghdad.
Meanwhile, gunmen wearing Iraqi army uniforms on Tuesday stole 1.24 billion Iraqi dinars (about $675,000) from Rafidain Bank in western Baghdad early Tuesday afternoon, Iraqi emergency police told CNN.
An in the northern city of Kirkuk, a roadside bomb killed six policemen, Kirkuk police said. Another police officer was wounded in the incident, which occurred at 11:30 a.m. in Hawija.
On Monday, in a coordinated attack in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, at least 40 people were killed and wounded dozens, and small-arms fire killed a U.S. soldier in the capital.
The incidents took place as Sunni-Shiite sectarian violence festers in and near Baghdad.
The killing of a U.S. soldier on Monday -- which occurred at 12:55 p.m. (0955 GMT) in western Baghdad -- brought the number of U.S. military deaths in the Iraq war to 2,548. The soldier was from Multi-National Division Baghdad.
Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:Ican, your Iraq Body Count seems to be a little, shall we say, incorrect these days.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/18/iraq.main/index.html
Quote: U.N.: 14,000 Iraqis killed in 2006
Holy city bomb kills 45; Armed robbers hit Baghdad bank
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- More than 14,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq in the first half of this year, an ominous figure reflecting the fact that "killings, kidnappings and torture remain widespread" in the war-torn country, a United Nations report says.
Killings of civilians are on "an upward trend," with more than 5,800 deaths and more than 5,700 injuries reported in May and June alone, it says.
The report, a bimonthly document produced by the U.N. Assistance Mission for Iraq, covers May and June, and includes chilling casualty figures and ugly anecdotes from the insurgent and sectarian warfare that continues to rage despite the establishment of a national unity government and a security crackdown in Baghdad.
The report lists examples of bloody suicide bombs aimed at mosques, attacks on laborers, the recovery of slain bodies, the assassinations of judges, the killings of prisoners, the targeting of clergy -- all incidents dutifully reported by media over these three-plus years of chaos in the streets.
The U.N. agency says it has been made aware since last year of the targeting of homosexuals, "increasingly threatened and extra-judicially executed by militias and 'death squads' because of their sexual orientation."
The intolerance propelling the anti-gay prejudice extends to ethnic and religious minorities and others whose manner of dress doesn't meet the standards of religious extremists.
"On 28 May, an Iraqi tennis coach and two of his players were shot dead in Baghdad allegedly because they were wearing shorts. Similar threats are said to be made to induce men to conform to certain hair styles or rules regarding facial hair," the report says.
Women face intolerance -- and violence -- as well.
"In some Baghdad neighborhoods, women are now prevented from going to the markets alone. In other cases, women have been warned not to drive cars or have faced harassment if they wear trousers. Women have also reported that wearing a headscarf is becoming not a matter of religious choice but one of survival in many parts of Iraq, a fact which is particularly resented by non-Muslim women."
Academics and health professionals have been attacked, spurring them to leave the country or their home regions, causing a brain drain and a dislocation in services.
"Health care providers face difficulties in carrying out their work because of the limited supply of electricity and growing number of patients due to the increase in violence," the report says.
Kidnappings have been part of the chaotic Iraqi scene since the insurgency began, with many hostages killed even after a ransom is paid. The abductors are not only motivated by sectarianism or politics; organized crime appears to be involved with some of the kidnappings.
"On some occasions, sectarian connotations and alleged collusion with sectors of the police, as well as with militias, have been reported to UNAMI. Although there are no reliable statistics regarding this phenomenon, because Iraqis often are afraid to report such crimes to the police, the kidnappings are likely a daily occurrence," the report says.
For children, the "extent of violence in areas" other than the Kurdish region "is such that likely every child, to some degree, has been exposed to it," it says.
"In one case the body of a 12-year-old Osama was reportedly found by the Iraqi police in a plastic bag after his family paid a ransom of some 30,000 U.S. dollars. The boy had been sexually assaulted by the kidnappers, before being hanged by his own clothing. The police captured members of this gang who confessed of raping and killing many boys and girls before Osama," the report says.
Cultural symbols
"Civilian casualties resulted mainly from bombings and drive-by shootings, from indiscriminate attacks, in neighborhood markets or petrol stations, or following armed clashes with the police and the security forces," the report says.
"Civilians were also targeted or became unintended victims of insurgent or military actions.
"Terrorist acts against civilians have been aimed at fomenting sectarian violence or allegedly motivated by revenge and have targeted members of the Arab Shia and Sunni communities, including their cultural symbols, as well as markets in Shia neighborhoods."
Figures from the Medico-Legal Institute in Baghdad and the Ministry of Health show that the total number of civilians killed from January to June was 14,338.
In late June, the Ministry of Health "acknowledged information stating that since 2003 at least 50,000 persons have been killed in violence and stated the number of deaths are probably under-reported." the report says.
"The Baghdad morgue reportedly received 30,204 bodies from 2003 to mid-2006. Deaths numbering 18,933 occurred from 'military clashes' and 'terrorist attacks'" between April 5, 2004, and June 1, 2006.
The report also notes the probes by the United States into the alleged killings of 24 civilians in Haditha by U.S. troops as well the deaths caused by military operations throughout the country.
Other developments
At least 45 people were killed and 60 others wounded Tuesday morning when a suicide car bomber detonated in a busy Kufa marketplace where day laborers gather, Iraqi police said.
The attack took place around 7:30 a.m. near a Shia shrine.
Kufa is considered a holy place by Shia Muslims and is just outside Najaf, about 100 miles (160 kilometers) south of Baghdad.
Meanwhile, gunmen wearing Iraqi army uniforms on Tuesday stole 1.24 billion Iraqi dinars (about $675,000) from Rafidain Bank in western Baghdad early Tuesday afternoon, Iraqi emergency police told CNN.
An in the northern city of Kirkuk, a roadside bomb killed six policemen, Kirkuk police said. Another police officer was wounded in the incident, which occurred at 11:30 a.m. in Hawija.
On Monday, in a coordinated attack in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, at least 40 people were killed and wounded dozens, and small-arms fire killed a U.S. soldier in the capital.
The incidents took place as Sunni-Shiite sectarian violence festers in and near Baghdad.
The killing of a U.S. soldier on Monday -- which occurred at 12:55 p.m. (0955 GMT) in western Baghdad -- brought the number of U.S. military deaths in the Iraq war to 2,548. The soldier was from Multi-National Division Baghdad.
Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.
Cycloptichorn
So,that comes to a rate of approx 30,000 a year.
Lets see,42,643 people died on US highways in 2003,according to the federal govt.
That number doesnt seem to bother you,because you dont seem to be as upset about that as you are the deaths in Iraq.
Why is that?
Is it because those that died on our highways are Americans?
Or,is it because you cant blame that on Bush?
BTW,that number can be found here...
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2004/08/11/44884.htm
This imbecile compares those killed in Iraq and those killed on our highways as if killings and accidents are comparable.
cicerone imposter wrote:Not a good way to win friends and influence people - especially Iraqis:
July 18, 2006
U.N. Estimates Nearly 6,000 Iraqi Civilians Died in 2 Months
...
Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
Your post is more
liebral pseudology from the The New York Times.
FROM IBC DAILY COUNTS AS OF
JUNE 26, 2006
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
9,879 Iraqi civilians died violently during the five months
01/01/2006 through 05/31/2006.
1,976 Iraqi civilians died violently each month on the average during the five months
01/01/2006 through 05/31/2006.
803 Iraqi civilians will have died violently in June, based on the IBC numbers of 696, or 26.8 per day, for 06/01/2006 through 06/26/2006.
cicerone imposter wrote:This imbecile compares those killed in Iraq and those killed on our highways as if killings and accidents are comparable.
Dead is dead,isnt it?
Or,are you suggesting that the cause of their deaths is important?
If you are,then lets look at the numbers,ok
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Using this site,we see that the murder rate in the US in 2004 was 16,137.
So,since those people died violently,does that matter?
Where is your outrage about their deaths?
Cycloptichorn wrote:Ican, your Iraq Body Count seems to be a little, shall we say, incorrect these days.
Quote:U.N.: 14,000 Iraqis killed in 2006
...
Copyright 2006 CNN.
...
Cycloptichorn
ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, NYT and the UN have all frequently been shown to be
liebral pseudologists.
I trust and will continue to trust IBC DAILY COUNTS until I have valid reason not to.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Current American population is about 297,000,000. If the June 2005 to May 2006 American murder rate was
20,000, that would equate to 100% x 20,000/297,000,000 = about 0.0067% of the American population.
Current Iraqi population is about 28,000,000. If the June 2005 to May 2006 Iraqi violent death rate was
21,000, that would equate to 100% x 21,000/28,000,000 = approximately 0.075% of the Iraqi population -- about an 11 times greater rate than that American murder rate.
However, if my predictions turn out to be correct, then from June 2006 to May 2007,
6600 Iraqi civilians will have died violently -- that would be a significant reduction from the previous year.
ican711nm wrote: ICAN PREDICTIONS MADE IN JUNE 2006
1,050 
Iraqi civilians died violently in June 2006.
950 Iraqi civilians died violently in July 2006.
850 Iraqi civilians died violently in August 2006.
750 Iraqi civilians died violently in September 2006.
650 Iraqi civilians died violently in October 2006.
550 Iraqi civilians died violently in November 2006.
450 Iraqi civilians died violently in December 2006.
350 Iraqi civilians died violently in January 2007.
250 Iraqi civilians died violently in February 2007.
250 Iraqi civilians died violently in March 2007.
250 Iraqi civilians died violently in April 2007.
250 Iraqi civilians died violently in May 2007.
I think it's important to keep in mind who is killing all those people. It certainly is not the US.
It's fine to be upset by the high death count in Iraq, but be equally upset at those doing the killing instead of those working so hard to prevent them.
McGentrix wrote:I think it's important to keep in mind is killing all those people. It certainly is not the US.
It's fine to be upset by the high death count in Iraq, but be equally upset at those doing the killing instead of those working so hard to prevent them.
Excellent point. Take the United States out of the equation:
If Saddam could have been toppled internally, and they surely tried, the entire world would have applauded the development. Would not the same opposing forces have emerged in the ensuing power struggle? Would it be more or less deadly absent the U.S. military's presence?
In all likelihood; wouldn't there be a need for international peace keeping forces to stop the slaughter of the Sunnis from escalating out of control and beyond the borders of Iraq? Or would the Shi'a , Sunnis and Kurds have held a meeting and sorted out their disagreements peacefully?
OBill, That's exactly the point: Iraq would have eventually fallen back into the tribal-sectarian warfare irregardless of our involvement that has now cost us lives and treasure. It would be up to the world community to intervene - if they decided to do so, but that's how it should have been resolved; not by the US and England. World security responsibility belongs to the world community; not only to the US and England.
"Take the United States out of the equation:" and Saddam likely would have died an unknown thug. Saddam was a long time CIA asset first hired as an assassin in 1959.
http://www.membres.lycos.fr/alexthib/html/shaking_hand.html
cicerone imposter wrote:OBill, That's exactly the point: Iraq would have eventually fallen back into the tribal-sectarian warfare irregardless of our involvement that has now cost us lives and treasure. It would be up to the world community to intervene - if they decided to do so, but that's how it should have been resolved; not by the US and England. World security responsibility belongs to the world community; not only to the US and England.
Here we agree. Perhaps next time we can get a few more countries to not take the day off. :wink:
McGentrix wrote:I think it's important to keep in mind who is killing all those people. It certainly is not the US.
It's fine to be upset by the high death count in Iraq, but be equally upset at those doing the killing instead of those working so hard to prevent them.
I agree! The people who are working to reduce the "high death count in Iraq" are not the enemy of the Iraqi people. The people who are intentionally killing Iraqi civilians (i.e.,
itm) are the enemy of the Iraqi people. If the
itm were to cease intentionally killing Iraqi civilians, there would be no need for people to continue trying to reduce the "high death count in Iraq," and therefore no need for taking preventive actions that risk unintentionally killing Iraqi civilians.
I'm looking for the people who are working to reduce the "high death count in Iraq" to create a persistent trend in the reducition of the total rate that Iraqi civilians are killed. The
itm are clearly working to increase that rate and can be stopped only by their extermination.
cicerone imposter wrote:OBill, That's exactly the point: Iraq would have eventually fallen back into the tribal-sectarian warfare irregardless of our involvement that has now cost us lives and treasure. It would be up to the world community to intervene - if they decided to do so, but that's how it should have been resolved; not by the US and England. World security responsibility belongs to the world community; not only to the US and England.
Yes, it was up to the world community to help solve the Iraq problem. But the world community chose not to help with anything more than their unsupported resolutions. The USA had the most to lose by waiting for the world community to help, if indeed the world community would ever choose to help. I'm glad we chose not to wait!
ican wrote:
"...The USA had the most to lose by waiting for the world community to help..."
Show us how this is so - with concrete evidence, not by unsubstantiated rhetoric?
Ican,
You can't simply discount all sources of news as being liberal liars because they don['t agree with your opinion of reality, sorry. And the numbers aren't actually that far off from the numbers at IBC.
Are you manually tabulating the data from the IBC table, per month, or is there a monthly breakdown that you are citing?
Cycloptichorn
Came across this on a blog today .... I know it has been posted before but it bears repeating ...
In 1998, former President George Bush and Brent Scowcroft, National Security Advisor during the Bush administration, collaborated on the book A World Transformed, a political history covering significant world events which occurred during the first three years of Bush's presidency (1989-1991): the collapse of the Soviet empire, the unification of Germany, Tiananmen Square, and the Gulf War.
In Chapter 19, which discusses the aftermath of the 1991 Gulf War (also known as "Desert Storm," the military operation to liberate Kuwait from occupation by invading Iraqi forces), they wrote:
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different ?- and perhaps barren ?- outcome.
Gels, That's a gem. Too bad Bush II didn't understand the consequences.
