0
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ, TENTH THREAD.

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jul, 2006 02:10 pm
Amigo wrote:

...
Ican has destroyed the dialogue here and replaced it with what you see today.
ican has "destroyed the dialogue" here by occassionally posting very long quotes Question
...
It seems to me these tactics run through the whole right wing all the way to the presidency down to conversation on the web.
"... these tactics" consist of ican occassionally posting very long quotes Question

If you ask me it is them not liberals that make government nessary.
"... it is them not liberals that make government nessary" by having ican occassionally post very long quotes Question

They just have no cooth, no boundaries, no ethics.
... demonstrated by ican occassionally posting very long quotes Question

But it works for them, a great thread is now a total wreck.
"... a great thread is now a total wreck" because ican occassionally posts very long quotes Question

I hope Walter, Set, etc, etc will take up somewhere else again.
... to avoid ican who occassionally posts very long quotes Question
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jul, 2006 02:54 pm
To adequately reduce the risk to Iraqi civilians and members of the Iraqi government working on the development of Iraq's infrastructure, the monthly Iraqi civilian violent death rate must be reduced to less than 100% x (280/28,000,000) = 0.001%.

The monthly Iraqi civilian violent death rate for the period January 1, 2006 through May 31, 2006 was 100% x 1976/28,000,000 = about 0.00706%.

For the month June 2006, extrapolating from current estimates, the Iraqi civilian violent death rate is 100% x 1000/28,000,000 = about 0.00357%.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jul, 2006 03:37 pm
Quote:
Part 1-
http://www.democratiya.com/interview.asp?issueid=3
Part 2-
http://www.democratiya.com/interview.asp?issueid=4

The Death of A Left

Alan Johnson: How do we make sense of the left-intellectuals denial? How do we account for their refusal to engage with the first part of Cruelty and Silence? Given the expressed values of the left one would expect them to have tended to it very closely, and to have cared very deeply. But that's not what happened. How do we explain that?

Kanan Makiya: You are putting your finger on the central issue of what's happened to the left since the fall of the former Soviet Union. There is a vacuum at the moral centre of the left which is what makes it so ineffective today. How did that come about? There are many forces at work.

The left retreated into a politics of cultural relativism during the 1980s. The activist generation, that entered politics for the anti-Vietnam war campaign and the civil rights movement, retreated into academia and began theorising outside of having any active role in politics. Increasingly the language of being against the Vietnam war underwent a subtle transformation. It became a form of cultural relativism that deep down, through such movements as deconstructionism, became antithetical to the original values upon which the internationalist left had been founded.

Look back at the Spanish civil war and think of the brigades of volunteers who went to fight. Think of George Orwell. That's the spirit of the traditional left. The language of human rights comes naturally to it as an extension of its internationalism and its universalism. Yes, perhaps culture was not studied enough by that older left. But it was right to subordinate culture to that which we had in common as human beings. Increasingly, by the 1980s, that is no longer the case. That which makes us different began to be posited as a positive value in itself. The internationalist concern with those universals that human beings have in common declined in importance. Now, any form of intervention began to be seen as immoral, not just a particular intervention, at a particular time. There is a generalisation against all intervention that takes place from Vietnam onwards. And, in the Arab case, all this mixed with the moribund state of our political culture.

The 'Civilisational Challenge'
Alan Johnson: Your work has been distinguished by its criticism of Arab and Muslim political culture. That culture, you say, is 'continuing to wallow in the sense of victimhood to the point of losing the essentially universal idea of human dignity and worth that is the only true measure of civility'. After 9/11, you warned that, 'The Arab and Muslim worlds suddenly find themselves facing a civilisational challenge such as they have not had to face since the fall of the Ottoman Empire'. Can you say what you mean by this notion of a 'civilisational challenge'?

Kanan Makiya: On a simple level, I mean there is a culture of not taking responsibility for the state of one's house. The culture of constantly shunting that responsibility to others-'imperialism', 'Zionism', and so on-has become a break on moving forward across the Middle East. Look at Muslim societies today. They are relatively backward in terms of income levels. They have been unable to create democracies. They are stuck in a language and a rhetoric that is patently unmodern. The defensive wall that exists between Islam (at least as it is currently constructed) and the necessary changes needed is, above all, the idea that others are responsible for what we've done, and that everything bad that happened to us has happened because of others. The answer to the question 'what is wrong?' is always 'it's somebody else's fault'.

...
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Jul, 2006 07:03 pm
iraq today , as seen by al-jazeerah

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Cartoons/cartoon%20originals/Jan/14134_2.JPG
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 06:15 am
Condi says Iraq has nothing to do with the instability in the Middle East: That's Gross

Quote:
Well she actually said "grotesque." Condi was on THIS WEEK and tried to downplay Dick Cheney's speech that said the Middle East would be better off because of the Iraq war. That's certainly not the case as we watch it play out everyday. She told George that:

STEPHANOPOULOS: But before the war in Iraq many argued that going into Iraq would stir up a hornet's nest. The administration strongly disagreed and here's what Vice President Cheney had to say in August 2002.

CHENEY (VIDEO): I believe the opposite is true. Regime change in Iraq would bring about a number of benefits to the region, extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of jihad, moderates throughout the region would take heart, and our ability to advance the Israeli/Palestinian peace process would be enhanced.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Extremists now appear to have been emboldened. The moderates appear to be in retreat. There is no peace process. There is war. How do you answer administration critics who say that the administration's actions have unleashed, have helped unleash the very hostilities you hoped to contain?

RICE: Well, first of all, those hostilities were not very well contained as we found out on September 11th, so the notion that policies that finally confront extremism are actually causing extremism, I find grotesque.

(h/t Think Progress for the transcript)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 09:39 am
They continue to fall back on 9-11 as if that answers all the problems they created! What gall! What ignorance!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:35 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
They continue to fall back on 9-11 as if that answers all the problems they created! What gall! What ignorance!


Did you hit your chin with that knee-jerk?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:43 am
Did you, with your oh-so-substantive response?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 11:25 am
Quote:
Part 1-
http://www.democratiya.com/interview.asp?issueid=3
Part 2-
http://www.democratiya.com/interview.asp?issueid=4

Kanan Makiya:
...
After it became the American position to democratise Iraq (around August 2002) I agreed to participate in the Future of Iraq workshops. I had a meeting at the highest levels of the State Department and formulated a set of conditions regarding my participation. I participated in the Democratic Principles Workshop (it was called the Political Principles Workshop but the title changed after democratisation became the goal, and on the insistence of the US Congress, as I recall). My idea, as put to the Department of State prior to my involvement, was that a plan for the transition in Iraq would emerge from the discussions of the 32 Iraqis they had already chosen for the workshop. The Americans said they would not participate in the discussions, only host them. It was a tumultuous experience but in the end a document of several hundred pages was produced. The Transition to Democracy in Iraq is still available on the internet (http://www.iraqfoundation.org/studies/2002/dec/study.pdf). I was intensively involved in the writing with four or five other leading figures, as is in the nature of these things; but it was discussed thoroughly and finally approved by all 32 members of the workshop.

But we soon realised that the State Department had a totally different vision of the workshop. In their eyes it was about learning democracy, 101-style. They thought Iraqis would benefit from the process of sitting around a table and airing their views. I found this very condescending and wanted instead a position paper on the transition to be produced that would provide, in a crude sort of way, a joint Iraqi-American blueprint for the transition. They did concede to me that the document could be put to a vote at a conference of the Iraqi Opposition in London in December 2002, but they did not tell me before the workshop that they were not going to tie their hands in any way by its conclusions. In fact they took distance from it the moment it was produced, especially after they realised the document was arguing strongly for a transitional provisional Iraqi government as the way forward, not American military occupation. That was a source of a lot of tensions in the run-up to the war.


Iraq and the Inter-Agency Process

Alan Johnson: You have called the inter-agency process-the co-ordinated efforts of the White House, State Department, Department of Defence, and CIA-'the great albatross of our lives'. In your opinion 'Many of our problems afterwards in Iraq are a consequence of ... squabbling within the U.S. administration'. You said to one journalist that '[t]he enemies of a democratic Iraq lie within the State Department and the CIA, who have consistently thwarted the president's genuine attempt ... to do something very dramatic in this country. Fortunately they have not totally succeeded.' What was the basis of these inter-agency disputes and what were their consequences?

Kanan Makiya: The little story of the Future of Iraq project unfolded against the backdrop of a much larger problem in the preparations for war. There was tension-I would even call it warfare-between the different branches of the US government. This has still has not been written about properly. Deep internal American conflicts hobbled the whole enterprise from the outset. Matters reached the level of hatred between and among Americans. Iraqis were portioned off by different agencies. Some were close to the Department of Defense, some to the CIA, some to State, and so on. The warfare at the heart of the Bush administration was shaping the agenda rather than any positive plan.

The change in the United States government's position that brought about such tensions within the administration goes back to September 11 - a transforming moment in American political culture. From that day a small minority of influential people in the United States government emerged who said that the way forward was democratic change in the region, starting with Iraq. They argued that US foreign policy towards the Middle East had rested for 50 years on support of autocratic regimes (like Saudi Arabia, like Saddam in the 1980s, like Mubarak's Egypt) in the interests of securing oil supplies, or whatever it might be. This policy had led to a level of anger at the United States inside the Arab world that provided fertile breeding ground for organisations like Al-Qaeda.

So, at the strategic level, what needed to happen was a dramatic change in US policy. The US should reach out to peoples not governments, to focus on democratisation as opposed to stability, and so on. That school of thought emerged in the Pentagon, led by people like Paul Wolfowitz. It ran headlong against the State Department's traditional accommodationist policies. The conflict was between those agencies that were wedded to the policies of the past and those breaking new ground. The former were often in the State Department - people who knew that part of the world in a very particular way. They had been Ambassadors, they had hobnobbed with the Saudi ruling families, and they had developed certain preconceptions about how the Arab world worked. By contrast those who were pushing for a dramatically new policy, like Paul Wolfowitz, were not shackled by such a past, nor burdened by the weight of those prejudices. But they did not necessarily know the Middle East as well. They were not Arab linguists, and these people tended to reside in the Pentagon and in parts of the White House.

In this struggle the CIA was close to the State Department. The Pentagon was close to the White House (though the White House had no single view). The struggle could have been a healthy one resulting in a plan of action for post-2003 had there been sufficient control of these divisions from the top. There wasn't. Bush just laid down a policy and was not a man for the details. And the National Security Council did not opt clearly for this or that way forward. Instead they set up something called the 'inter-agency process'. This involved representatives from the different warring agencies who would sit down and compromise over every single decision. The result was not that there were no plans, as people say, but that there were too many plans that were no longer coherent because they were picked apart in this inter-agency process until they were a little bit of this and a little bit of that. For instance, the Pentagon was for a provisional Iraqi transitional authority rooted in and stemming from the Iraqi opposition. The State Department was dead set against that. And its intense dislike of the Iraqi opposition drove them to support what I think was the worst possible strategic formula for the transition: an American military occupation of Iraq with all that that entailed in terms of responsibilities for the minutest of details in the post war period.
...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:18 pm
Great post, Ican, thanks

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 01:32 pm
ican, I finally read one of your long cut and paste posts, and find it surprising from the fact you are the poster.

Good post.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 05:32 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, I finally read one of your long cut and paste posts, and find it surprising from the fact you are the poster.

Good post.

I post what I think is probably true, whether I like it or not.

I posted here the entire two parts to the interview article a few days ago. I recommend it because I think it a rational and valuable insight into what has over the years affected the US approach in the middle east.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 05:43 pm
ican wrote:
I post what I think is probably true, whether I like it or not.

I have known to have done the same. People get confused when I post what seems direct contradictions to who they think I am; a liberal - which I'm not. I've posted many negative posts about the democrats; it seems to confuse "them."
0 Replies
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 05:46 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ican, I finally read one of your long cut and paste posts, and find it surprising from the fact you are the poster.

Good post.
A pig just flew by my window.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 06:08 pm
...and it snowed in hades....
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 06:24 pm
And a monkey flew outa my a$$
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:12 pm
And out of mine. Shocked
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Jul, 2006 10:37 pm
Hey, Cyclo, what am I missing here?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 04:29 am
What ya'll have been missing isn't a new occurrence. Ican has usually made plenty of sense... you just didn't listen until he posted something that frowned on Bush. Bad on Ya'll... way more than it's good on Ican. Idea Ican, I still admire your stamina.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jul, 2006 10:17 am
OBill, Are you talking about ican's consistent schpeal about "kill all the malignancy?"
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 07/15/2025 at 08:05:00