Momma Angel wrote:Debra, is there some process that the father (whether husband or not) can apply through the law to petition the courts to at least review the woman's decision to abort if the man wants to raise the child?
No. Any law that would allow a man to take a woman to court to "review" her personal decision to continue or to terminate a pregnancy would be unconstitutional.
If you allow the husband to force the woman to have his child, then you must also allow the husband to force the woman to have an abortion. Does that sound reasonable to you?
FreeDuck,
I am NOT saying that sounds reasonable, no. I am having such a conflict with this. I am trying to understand all sides but am having some difficulty. I guess I'm just having a hard time letting go of the "I think both the man and woman bear equal responsibility for the child" thing. I'm working on it.
It just doesn't seem to me that there is a way to make this completely fair to everyone.
Momma Angel wrote:FreeDuck,
I am NOT saying that sounds reasonable, no. I am having such a conflict with this. I am trying to understand all sides but am having some difficulty. I guess I'm just having a hard time letting go of the "I think both the man and woman bear equal responsibility for the child" thing. I'm working on it.
It just doesn't seem to me that there is a way to make this completely fair to everyone.
News Flash Momma, the world just ain't fair! We try, but it just isn't!!
Anon
I certainly think that both men and women have equal responsibility for a child, but not for a pregnancy, because it's physically impossible for it to be equal. And to be honest, it's also impossible for it to be equal in the first year of life, as I've found with my own children. The best way to avoid these conflicts is to discuss the possibility of children beforehand and to make sure they are in agreement. If that's not the case, though, and if the two disagree as to what should be done, then someone's choice has to win out. Who should that someone be?
BTW, I'm impressed with your willingness to consider all the arguments in this thread.
Momma Angel wrote:I guess I'm just having a hard time letting go of the "I think both the man and woman bear equal responsibility for the child" thing. I'm working on it.
It just doesn't seem to me that there is a way to make this completely fair to everyone.
AFTER a child is born, BOTH the mother and the father have equal rights and equal responsibilities.
PRIOR to birth, things aren't equal between men and women due to the biological differences between men and women. When the parties to the pregnancy disagree about whether to continue a pregnancy or to terminate a pregnancy, someone has to make the ultimate decision. Obviously, the decision falls upon the woman because she's the one who is pregnant.
Anon,
Well, it's not a news flash to me. My mother instilled in me a long time ago that "Who the heck said the world was fair?" concept.
I am a person that believes that as long as all parties involved in a situation are willing to discuss it and look for a solution then one can be found that can reasonably accomodate everyone involved. Call it naive, unrealistic, etc. I believe as long as the communication is there, it can be done.
FreeDuck, well, I don't know if you should be impressed or not but I think it's the right thing to do. I don't think anyone's views or opinions should be discounted here. I also think you are right on with your statements. And, I think if more people thought and acted the way you stated, abortion probably wouldn't be the big issue it is.
But, in all fairness, since it is the woman who is going to bear the ultimate effects of the actions, i.e., pregnancy, raising the child, etc., then I think more of the responsibility should be on her to not get pregnant in the first place. But, on the otherhand, I believe the man should be just as responsible in the woman not getting pregnant because he is creating consequences not only for himself, but for others. So, that is why I think the child support being enforced is a good thing.
I guess my biggest conflict is the choice thing. Those Pro-Choice make the "choice" right such a big issue and yet, in certain cases, the man has no choice once the pregnancy occurs. The woman still has a choice from the sex act to the birth of the child. She can have an abortion, have the child and keep it, or have the child and give it up for adoption. The man is literally left to the decision of the woman. I realize it's because she is the one that carries the baby, etc., but it still doesn't seem quite right to me. I mean, if he wants the child and she gives it up for adoption the man is left for the rest of his life wondering where his child is and if the child is ok. I realize the woman will face the same thing, but she is the one that made the choice.
Debra,
Your post just popped up as I was about to post this. I think I might be starting to get the hang of this.
Another option, of course, would be to strip women of all civil and political liberties, relegate them to the status of children, and place them under the dominion and control of men. Under this option, a man would make the ultimate decision whether a woman would continue or terminate a pregnancy.
Debra,
So you admit that there are biological differences between men and women.
That there are some things women can do that men cant,and some things men can do that women cant?
Momma Angel wrote:But, in all fairness, since it is the woman who is going to bear the ultimate effects of the actions, i.e., pregnancy, raising the child, etc., then I think more of the responsibility should be on her to not get pregnant in the first place.
And she is. Have you ever heard of a birth control pill for men? No? Maybe because there isn't one (yet). Women who don't want to have children can be on hormones (bc pills) for more than half of her reproductive years, if not all of them. I will say it again, choosing to have an abortion IS taking responsibility for her actions.
Quote:I mean, if he wants the child and she gives it up for adoption the man is left for the rest of his life wondering where his child is and if the child is ok. I realize the woman will face the same thing, but she is the one that made the choice.
I don't believe that a woman can legally put a child up for adoption without the father's consent unless his parental rights have been revoked.
mysteryman wrote:Debra,
So you admit that there are biological differences between men and women.
That there are some things women can do that men cant,and some things men can do that women cant?
Is this even up for discussion? Men can pee standing up and women can have babies. Is that news to you?
Momma Angel wrote:The woman still has a choice from the sex act to the birth of the child. She can have an abortion, have the child and keep it, or have the child and give it up for adoption. The man is literally left to the decision of the woman. I realize it's because she is the one that carries the baby, etc., but it still doesn't seem quite right to me. I mean, if he wants the child and she gives it up for adoption the man is left for the rest of his life wondering where his child is and if the child is ok. I realize the woman will face the same thing, but she is the one that made the choice.
That's not true. Once a child is born, BOTH the mother and the father have equal rights and equal responsibilities. The mother CANNOT place the child for adoption without the father's written consent. Between mother and father, custody rights are equal. The father has a superior right to the care, custody, and control of his child over and above prospective adoptive parents. If the mother wants to place the child for adoption and father does not consent, he has the right to step up to the plate and demand custody.
FreeDuck wrote:mysteryman wrote:Debra,
So you admit that there are biological differences between men and women.
That there are some things women can do that men cant,and some things men can do that women cant?
Is this even up for discussion? Men can pee standing up and women can have babies. Is that news to you?
I can't lift 200 pounds, but my man can. He's so sexy and strong and has big muscles. <--- this is where I would place the starry-eyed, love-struck woman emoticon, if we had one.
Hi Debra_Law
I am completely for women having equity in all things and having complete control over their bodies at all times. I fully understand that the definition of a human life does not spring into fruition at the moment of conception.
All that aside, I am under the impression that in custody battles, all things being equal, it is still more common for the woman to have farther reaching custody influence of the kids than the man.
This judicial bias certainly was prevalent in Canada some years ago, and as I understand it, although moderated, in cases of equal merit, still exists today to some degree.
Chumly wrote:Hi Debra_Law
I am completely for women having equity in all things and having complete control over their bodies at all times. I fully understand that the definition of a human life does not spring into fruition at the moment of conception.
All that aside, I am under the impression that in custody battles, all things being equal, it is still more common for the woman to have farther reaching custody influence of the kids than the man.
This judicial bias certainly was prevalent in Canada some years ago, and as I understand it, although moderated, in cases of equal merit, still exists today to some degree.
In the "olden days" (not so long ago), what you said is true. The courts were more inclined to award custody to mothers unless she was unfit. They presumed that mothers were more nurturing than fathers towards children. However, this was an unconstitutional presumption based on gender in violation of the equal protection clause of our Constitution. Once that unconstitutional presumption was thrown out of the custody equation, a father's right to custody became equal to a mother's right to custody.
Nowadays, when custody is in dispute, fathers are winning custody just as often as mothers win custody.
Momma Angel wrote:Thanx for letting me know about the adoption thing. Let me ask this, what if a woman won't name the father? Can she still place the child up for adoption? What if the father finds out the baby was adopted without his consent? Does he have any recourse after an adoption has taken place?
Yes, the mother can claim that she doesn't know who the father is and place the child for adoption.
If the father discovers the existence of the child after it has been adopted, he may have recourse if his discovery was timely. He who sleeps on his rights loses them. There's a supreme court case on point and I'll find you the link.
Debra_Law wrote:Nowadays, when custody is in dispute, fathers are winning custody just as often as mothers win custody.
Thanks for that! Not that I have kids, but I and my siblings were the product of an extreme custody battle, in which my mom was unfit relative to my dad, but custody was still awarded to my mom, likely to us kid's detriment.
