Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2006 11:31 pm
Debra_Law wrote:
I wonder where all those "cash cows who pay the bills" are when it comes to those millions of children in this country who are struggling to survive on meager welfare payments funded by taxpayer dollars?
A meritable point. It's my understanding that a consequentially large percent of them are Black or Hispanic, suggesting racial-cultural-educational divides.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Feb, 2006 11:59 pm
Chumly wrote:
I do have certain concerns about the woman who subversively gets preggers, so as to hold the man hostage.

I do have certain concerns about the woman who is casual on birth control, but assures her partner she is well protected.


What can I say? Don't trust a woman who says she swallows because she might not swallow. She might run to the bathroom, spit the contents of her mouth into a syringe, inject the contents of that syringe up her vagina, and then hope she becomes preggers so she can surreptiously trap you. Wow. You must be a great catch.

You can't trust them wimmins--so why don't you use a condom and some spermacide? And don't ejaculate in her mouth. You can never be too careful when it comes to those conniving wimmins.
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:08 am
Snip, Snip ... No more worries!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:41 am
Debra_Law wrote:
Chumly wrote:
I do have certain concerns about the woman who subversively gets preggers, so as to hold the man hostage.

I do have certain concerns about the woman who is casual on birth control, but assures her partner she is well protected.


What can I say? Don't trust a woman who says she swallows because she might not swallow. She might run to the bathroom, spit the contents of her mouth into a syringe, inject the contents of that syringe up her vagina, and then hope she becomes preggers so she can surreptiously trap you. Wow. You must be a great catch.

You can't trust them wimmins--so why don't you use a condom and some spermacide? And don't ejaculate in her mouth. You can never be too careful when it comes to those conniving wimmins.
I am being conversational and topical, I would not read into my queries a definition of my persona. Although if you wanna, be my guest Cool

I have been with some women, who were "casual" about birth control. In fact my first wife told me she was on the pill, did get preggers, and did quite a bit to induce me to have the child with her. To the point of threatening to leave me and threatening to kill herself (youth!). I insisted on an abortion, she eventually complied, later she admitted to being "casual" about birth control.

I have been with other women who were very preoccupied indeed with the romantic notations of babies, and again rather "casual" about birth control.

I would make the generalization that the younger, less educated women, from less stable backgrounds, would be more likely to act in this regard. It does happen, and I am neither Hispanic nor Black.

As to the question of ejaculation and ejaculate in general, and to your suggestion on how to address this: there are advanced methods, for those in the know, should they be so inclined, to ejaculate into the bladder.

I am neither condoning nor condemning using the bladder as a storage cell for ejaculate. I myself do not partake of this methodology.

As to your views on condoms and spermacide I am not sure how applicable they would be for me (monogamous for the last decade) but I trust that using your imagination, you could envision a plethora of other sexual liaisons besides the traditional penis in vagina or penis in mouth rituals, in which the ejaculate becomes rather unavailable.

PS: This is dry humor mode Smile
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:55 am
Momma Angel wrote:
The more I read of Mysterman and Debra_Law the more conflicted I am getting. I can see points on both sides here. I am completely in favor of everyone taking responsibility for their actions.

So, if a woman gets pregnant and wants the baby and the man doesn't, he can be forced to pay child support, but if a woman gets pregnant and she doesn't want the baby and he does, she can have an abortion. Yes, it's her body. I get that. But we are talking about a man being forced to face his responsibility and yet a woman gets the choice of either facing her responsibility or aborting it?

That's how I am seeing it right now. Something is not adding up for me here. Why can a man be forced to pay (not saying he shouldn't be) but a woman can't be forced to have the baby because the man wants it?

Debra, help me out here. I get the part about the rights but it just doesn't seem well, fair is the only word I can think of.


The answers to your questions are here:

PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF SOUTHEASTERN PA. v. CASEY, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/505/833.html


Excerpts (with most internal citations omitted for ease of reading):

Quote:
I.

Liberty finds no refuge in a jurisprudence of doubt. Yet, 19 years after our holding that the Constitution protects a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy in its early stages, Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), that definition of liberty is still questioned. Joining the respondents as amicus curiae, the United States, as it has done in five other cases in the last decade, again asks us to overrule Roe. . . .

After considering the fundamental constitutional questions resolved by Roe, principles of institutional integrity, and the rule of stare decisis, we are led to conclude this: the essential holding of Roe v. Wade should be retained and once again reaffirmed.

It must be stated at the outset and with clarity that Roe's essential holding, the holding we reaffirm, has three parts.

First is a recognition of the right of the woman to choose to have an abortion before viability and to obtain it without undue interference from the State. Before viability, the State's interests are not strong enough to support a prohibition of abortion or the imposition of a substantial obstacle to the woman's effective right to elect the procedure.

Second is a confirmation of the State's power to restrict abortions after fetal viability if the law contains exceptions for pregnancies which endanger the woman's life or health.

And third is the principle that the State has legitimate interests from the outset of the pregnancy in protecting the health of the woman and the life of the fetus that may become a child. These principles do not contradict one another; and we adhere to each.

II.

Constitutional protection of the woman's decision to terminate her pregnancy derives from the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. It declares that no State shall "deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The controlling word in the cases before us is "liberty."

. . . [T]he full scope of the liberty guaranteed by the Due Process Clause cannot be found in or limited by the precise terms of the specific guarantees elsewhere provided in the Constitution. This "liberty" is not a series of isolated points pricked out in terms of the taking of property; the freedom of speech, press, and religion; the right to keep and bear arms; the freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures; and so on. It is a rational continuum which, broadly speaking, includes a freedom from all substantial arbitrary impositions and purposeless restraints, . . . and which also recognizes, what a reasonable and sensitive judgment must, that certain interests require particularly careful scrutiny of the state needs asserted to justify their abridgment. . . .

. . . It is settled now, as it was when the Court heard arguments in Roe v. Wade, that the Constitution places limits on a State's right to interfere with a person's most basic decisions about family and parenthood. . . .

. . . Men and women of good conscience can disagree, and we suppose some always shall disagree, about the profound moral and spiritual implications of terminating a pregnancy, even in its earliest stage. Some of us as individuals find abortion offensive to our most basic principles of morality, but that cannot control our decision. Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code. The underlying constitutional issue is whether the State can resolve these philosophic questions in such a definitive way that a woman lacks all choice in the matter, except perhaps in those rare circumstances in which the pregnancy is itself a danger to her own life or health, or is the result of rape or incest. . . .

. . . It is conventional constitutional doctrine that, where reasonable people disagree, the government can adopt one position or the other That theorem, however, assumes a state of affairs in which the choice does not intrude upon a protected liberty. Thus, while some people might disagree about whether or not the flag should be saluted, or disagree about the proposition that it may not be defiled, we have ruled that [size=28]a State may not compel or enforce one view or the other[/size]. . . .

Our law affords constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, procreation, contraception, family relationships, child rearing, and education. Our cases recognize the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child. Our precedents "have respected the private realm of family life which the state cannot enter." These matters, involving the most intimate and personal choices a person may make in a lifetime, choices central to personal dignity and autonomy, are central to the liberty protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. At the heart of liberty is the right to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life. Beliefs about these matters could not define the attributes of personhood were they formed under compulsion of the State. . . .

. . . Though abortion is conduct, it does not follow that the State is entitled to proscribe it in all instances. That is because the liberty of the woman is at stake in a sense unique to the human condition, and so, unique to the law. The mother who carries a child to full term is subject to anxieties, to physical constraints, to pain that only she must bear. That these sacrifices have from the beginning of the human race been endured by woman with a pride that ennobles her in the eyes of others and gives to the infant a bond of love cannot alone be grounds for the State to insist she make the sacrifice. Her suffering is too intimate and personal for the State to insist, without more, upon its own vision of the woman's role, however dominant that vision has been in the course of our history and our culture. The destiny of the woman must be shaped to a large extent on her own conception of her spiritual imperatives and her place in society. . . .

. . . for two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail. The ability of women to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation has been facilitated by their ability to control their reproductive lives. The Constitution serves human values, and while the effect of reliance on Roe cannot be exactly measured, neither can the certain cost of overruling Roe for people who have ordered their thinking and living around that case be dismissed. . . .

. . . The soundness of this prong of the Roe analysis is apparent from a consideration of the alternative. If indeed the woman's interest in deciding whether to bear and beget a child had not been recognized as in Roe, the State might as readily restrict a woman's right to choose to carry a pregnancy to term as to terminate it, to further asserted state interests in population control, or eugenics, for example. Yet Roe has been sensibly relied upon to counter any such suggestions. . . .


IV

From what we have said so far, it follows that it is a constitutional liberty of the woman to have some freedom to terminate her pregnancy. We conclude that the basic decision in Roe was based on a constitutional analysis which we cannot now repudiate. The woman's liberty is not so unlimited, however, that, from the outset, the State cannot show its concern for the life of the unborn and, at a later point in fetal development, the State's interest in life has sufficient force so that the right of the woman to terminate the pregnancy can be restricted.

That brings us, of course, to the point where much criticism has been directed at Roe, a criticism that always inheres when the Court draws a specific rule from what in the Constitution is but a general standard. We conclude, however, that the urgent claims of the woman to retain the ultimate control over her destiny and her body, claims implicit in the meaning of liberty, require us to perform that function. Liberty must not be extinguished for want of a line that is clear. And it falls to us to give some real substance to the woman's liberty to determine whether to carry her pregnancy to full term. . . .

The woman's right to terminate her pregnancy before viability is the most central principle of Roe v. Wade. It is a rule of law and a component of liberty we cannot renounce.

. . . A finding of an undue burden is a shorthand for the conclusion that a state regulation has the purpose or effect of placing a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion of a nonviable fetus. A statute with this purpose is invalid because the means chosen by the State to further the interest in potential life must be calculated to inform the woman's free choice, not hinder it. And a statute which, while furthering the interest in potential life or some other valid state interest, has the effect of placing a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman's choice cannot be considered a permissible means of serving its legitimate ends. . . .


* * *

Section 3209 of Pennsylvania's abortion law provides, except in cases of medical emergency, that no physician shall perform an abortion on a married woman without receiving a signed statement from the woman that she has notified her spouse that she is about to undergo an abortion. The woman has the option of providing an alternative signed statement certifying that her husband is not the man who impregnated her; that her husband could not be located; that the pregnancy is the result of spousal sexual assault which she has reported; or that the woman believes that notifying her husband will cause him or someone else to inflict bodily injury upon her. A physician who performs an abortion on a married woman without receiving the appropriate signed statement will have his or her license revoked, and is liable to the husband for damages. . . .


We recognize that a husband has a deep and proper concern and interest . . . in his wife's pregnancy and in the growth and development of the fetus she is carrying. With regard to the children he has fathered and raised, the Court has recognized his "cognizable and substantial" interest in their custody. If this case concerned a State's ability to require the mother to notify the father before taking some action with respect to a living child raised by both, therefore, it would be reasonable to conclude, as a general matter, that the father's interest in the welfare of the child and the mother's interest are equal.

Before birth, however, the issue takes on a very different cast. It is an inescapable biological fact that state regulation with respect to the child a woman is carrying will have a far greater impact on the mother's liberty than on the father's. The effect of state regulation on a woman's protected liberty is doubly deserving of scrutiny in such a case, as the State has touched not only upon the private sphere of the family, but upon the very bodily integrity of the pregnant woman.

The Court has held that, when the wife and the husband disagree on this decision, the view of only one of the two marriage partners can prevail. Inasmuch as it is the woman who physically bears the child and who is the more directly and immediately affected by the pregnancy, as between the two, the balance weighs in her favor. This conclusion rests upon the basic nature of marriage and the nature of our Constitution: [T]he marital couple is not an independent entity with a mind and heart of its own, but an association of two individuals, each with a separate intellectual and emotional makeup. If the right of privacy means anything, it is the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child. The Constitution protects individuals, men and women alike, from unjustified state interference, even when that interference is enacted into law for the benefit of their spouses.

There was a time, not so long ago, when a different understanding of the family and of the Constitution prevailed. In Bradwell v. State, 16 Wall. 130 (1873), three Members of this [505 U.S. 833, 897] Court reaffirmed the common law principle that a woman had no legal existence separate from her husband, who was regarded as her head and representative in the social state; and, notwithstanding some recent modifications of this civil status, many of the special rules of law flowing from and dependent upon this cardinal principle still exist in full force in most States. Id., at 141 (Bradley, J., joined by Swayne and Field, JJ., concurring in judgment). Only one generation has passed since this Court observed that "woman is still regarded as the center of home and family life," with attendant "special responsibilities" that precluded full and independent legal status under the Constitution. Hoyt v. Florida, 368 U.S. 57, 62 (1961). These views, of course, are no longer consistent with our understanding of the family, the individual, or the Constitution.

In keeping with our rejection of the common law understanding of a woman's role within the family, the Court held in Danforth that the Constitution does not permit a State to require a married woman to obtain her husband's consent before undergoing an abortion. 428 U.S., at 69 . The principles that guided the Court in Danforth should be our guides today. For the great many women who are victims of abuse inflicted by their husbands, or whose children are the victims of such abuse, a spousal notice requirement enables the husband to wield an effective veto over his wife's decision. Whether the prospect of notification itself deters such women from seeking abortions, or whether the husband, through physical force or psychological pressure or economic coercion, prevents his wife from obtaining an abortion until it is too late, the notice requirement will often be tantamount to the veto found unconstitutional in Danforth. The women most affected by this law - those who most reasonably fear the consequences of notifying their husbands that they are pregnant - are in the gravest danger. [505 U.S. 833, 898]

The husband's interest in the life of the child his wife is carrying does not permit the State to empower him with this troubling degree of authority over his wife. The contrary view leads to consequences reminiscent of the common law. A husband has no enforceable right to require a wife to advise him before she exercises her personal choices. If a husband's interest in the potential life of the child outweighs a wife's liberty, the State could require a married woman to notify her husband before she uses a post-fertilization contraceptive. Perhaps next in line would be a statute requiring pregnant married women to notify their husbands before engaging in conduct causing risks to the fetus. After all, if the husband's interest in the fetus' safety is a sufficient predicate for state regulation, the State could reasonably conclude that pregnant wives should notify their husbands before drinking alcohol or smoking. Perhaps married women should notify their husbands before using contraceptives or before undergoing any type of surgery that may have complications affecting the husband's interest in his wife's reproductive organs. And if a husband's interest justifies notice in any of these cases, one might reasonably argue that it justifies exactly what the Danforth Court held it did not justify - a requirement of the husband's consent as well. A State may not give to a man the kind of dominion over his wife that parents exercise over their children.

Section 3209 embodies a view of marriage consonant with the common law status of married women, but repugnant to our present understanding of marriage and of the nature of the rights secured by the Constitution. Women do not lose their constitutionally protected liberty when they marry. The Constitution protects all individuals, male or female, married or unmarried, from the abuse of governmental power, even where that power is employed for the supposed benefit of a member of the individual's family. These considerations confirm our conclusion that 3209 is invalid. [505 U.S. 833, 899]




I hope the above gives you a better understanding why the Constitution does not allow people to impose their moral or philosophical views on others through the operation of laws. I hope it gives you an understanding why the Constitution does not allow a state to enact laws that would effectively give a man dominion and control over his wife's or girlfriend's reproductive decisions. If our courts did not recognize that women have a constitutionally-protected liberty interest in controlling their own reproductive lives, then women would be effectively denied the right and the ability to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 07:54 am
MM writes
Quote:
Let me put it as simple as I can.

If you dont want to get pregnant,keep your legs closed!!!


While I do understand the principle you're arguing and it does have merit, I don't agree with you 100% on the issue of child support. IMO the man assumes the same risk of pregnancy as the woman when the two have consensual sex and he shouldn't be able to duck that just because the woman is irresponsible, stupid, or difficult.

I do understand the principle you are making that if she can choose, so should he be able to choose. But if his responsibility is not to her if she cuts him out, he still has responsibilty for the child.

IMO, the man and the woman should bear equal responsibility for starting a new life, and should bear equal responsibility to support a new life that is created either on purpose or inadvertently or both should be responsibile to see that the new life is supported by somebody willing to do that.

Because the consequences of unwanted pregnancy are far greater for the woman than they are for the man, the man should not be able to duck his responsibilities just because the woman is difficult or stupid, but if the mother chooses to give the baby up for adoption, perhaps the father should have first right at 100% parental custody. My personal preference is that the child go to a loving two-parent home as that is his/her best shot at not being poor and having the best emotional support and opportunities to be all he or she can be. If unable to or incompetent to raise a child, hopefully the biological parents will love the child enough to allow that.

In any case, not only should the woman keep her legs closed if she does not want to accept the consequences of pregnancy, but the man should keep his pants zipped. Otherwise neither should expect either the born or the unborn to bear bad consequences of their choices.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:17 am
Debra_Law,

Thank you so much for posting that. It does, indeed, help clear things up for me a great deal. I do still have some questions but I do understand more fully why the woman's decision carries more weight, and rightly so I must say.

I think my problem with it all is I am for complete equality and it just doesn't seem it can apply in cases such as these. There seems to be unequality in the fact that someone's decision for their life is going to be effected the opposite of what they wanted. This is most definitely one of the most complex issues I think society faces today. I wish I had the answer but I don't and can only try to understand that the Constitution is set up to be fair for society overall and not just one single individual.

I doubt I will ever completely change my view on abortion. I don't like the thought of them at all, though I do UNDERSTAND the need for some and do not judge anyone for making the decision to have one.

Debra, is there some process that the father (whether husband or not) can apply through the law to petition the courts to at least review the woman's decision to abort if the man wants to raise the child? I realize this might open up another can of worms here, but I am very interested in learning more about this. Mysteryman, to me, still does have some valid points about this and I am wondering is there a way to resolve them or do we just tell him, the law is as it is so suck it up?

I realize the woman is the one that bears the physical, emotional, etc., pains of bearing the child, but if a man wants the child and the woman aborts it, what of the pain the man goes through at the loss of his child?

Debra, I really appreciate you helping me understand this issue. You have been very patient with me and I know sometimes I can be kind of dense in absorbing some of these things.

I really lean to Foxfyre's way of thinking in her last post. The "right and responsible" thing to do IMO is for both parents to take care of the child. However, no one can be forced to do this. This is such a complex issue.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:36 am
Quote:
Debra, is there some process that the father (whether husband or not) can apply through the law to petition the courts to at least review the woman's decision to abort if the man wants to raise the child? I realize this might open up another can of worms here, but I am very interested in learning more about this. Mysteryman, to me, still does have some valid points about this and I am wondering is there a way to resolve them or do we just tell him, the law is as it is so suck it up?


This is my whole point,right here.
There is NO WAY a man can petition the courts.
That is my big comlaint.
The law has basically said that the man is a sperm donor,nothing more.
Once a woman gets pregnant,if she decides to have an abortion,even if the father wants the child,he is screwed.
He can do nothing at all to stop it.

That is why I say that the law,as written,is unfair.
The man basically loses all rights to be a parent if the woman doesnt want to be one.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:44 am
Well, then I have to agree with you on this one, Mysterman. I do find it rather unfair also.

There was a movie quite awhile back about a man who took his wife to court because she tried to commit suicide while she was pregnant and he was trying to save the baby. I need to see if I can find it because I think, I'm not sure, but I think it was supposed to be based on a true story. If it was, I don't find much difference in the woman deciding to abort the baby, except of course, she wouldn't survive either. But, the father wanted the child and was doing all he could to protect that child's right to life.

So, if as you say Mysterman, it seems the man is considered a sperm donor and nothing more, I can't quite agree with him being forced to pay child support. But, I can't quite agree with him not paying child support either. I'm really trying to reconcile all this and am having a hard time.

Let me see if I can find out anything about that movie and get back to you.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:53 am
Momma,
Dont get me wrong.
I am NOT saying that a man should not pay to support his children,I am saying that if he has no right to keep a child because she doesnt want it,then he should have the right to not support a child he didnt want.

He should be allowed the same type of choice she is.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:55 am
Mysterman,

Oh, I understand. I didn't take it that you felt a man shouldn't pay child support at all. I completely understand what you are saying.

I am having a hard time finding that movie! I thought it was Henry Winkler in it but now I'm not so sure. I really think that movie might help a bit here, if I can find it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:57 am
I also agree with MM that in cases where an an abortion is for the convenience/preference of the woman, the man should have a say; otherwise he should have no responsibility to the woman whatsoever re her pregnancy, medical costs, etc. And if there is no compelling reason why it would be dangerous for the child, a man should have full ability to parent any child that he helped conceive.

Those issues aside though, I do not believe any child, born or unborn, should have to bear the consequences for the parents not having their act together.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:00 pm
Foxfyre,

I'm with ya there girl!

Does anyone have any idea of what movie I am talking about? I guess it wasn't Henry Winkler who was in it.

It's about this couple and the wife got pregnant. She tried to commit suicide and the husband either took her to court or had her prosecuted for trying to kill the baby. This is driving me nuts! Anyone have any ideas? I'm not having much luck in searching.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:08 pm
I'm not familiar with it at all MA. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:10 pm
Rats! It's been quite awhile back. I am sure of that much. I am going to find it if it kills me! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:10 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Well, then I have to agree with you on this one, Mysterman. I do find it rather unfair also.

There was a movie quite awhile back about a man who took his wife to court because she tried to commit suicide while she was pregnant and he was trying to save the baby. I need to see if I can find it because I think, I'm not sure, but I think it was supposed to be based on a true story. If it was, I don't find much difference in the woman deciding to abort the baby, except of course, she wouldn't survive either. But, the father wanted the child and was doing all he could to protect that child's right to life.

So, if as you say Mysterman, it seems the man is considered a sperm donor and nothing more, I can't quite agree with him being forced to pay child support. But, I can't quite agree with him not paying child support either. I'm really trying to reconcile all this and am having a hard time.

Let me see if I can find out anything about that movie and get back to you.


Momma,

If "The Man" doesn't want to be a sperm donor ...he can have a vasectomy! It's all too easy! Any other arguement beyond that is whining and crying about something that "The Man" has TOTAL control.

Snip, Snip, and it's all over ... no paternity suits! The mother gets stuck with an unwanted baby, and the man rides off into the sunset to impregnate yet another female. So my message is "Tough Shiit Bucko", keep it your pants, or unload the gun!! Any man who doesn't ... gets what he deserves!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:16 pm
Anon,

Whoa bucko! Shocked I'm already conflicted enough about this issue without throwing sterilization in, ok? As to your scenario here, the woman can get snip, snipped too and not get pregnant. I am not saying that any one person is more responsible than the other here. I don't think it's fair to put the total responsibility for the conception of or non-conception of the child on just one party. BOTH are responsible.

Right now, I'm trying to reconcile why the man, if he wants the child, has no say so as to whether that child is born or not. Let me straighten that out in my head first, ok? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:32 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Anon,

Whoa bucko! Shocked I'm already conflicted enough about this issue without throwing sterilization in, ok? As to your scenario here, the woman can get snip, snipped too and not get pregnant. I am not saying that any one person is more responsible than the other here. I don't think it's fair to put the total responsibility for the conception of or non-conception of the child on just one party. BOTH are responsible.

Right now, I'm trying to reconcile why the man, if he wants the child, has no say so as to whether that child is born or not. Let me straighten that out in my head first, ok? :wink:


If a man wants a child ... get a woman who wants one too.

Vasectomies are the educated mans way out of trouble. A man, who is nothing but a sperm donor anyway, has the option of having a couple of gallons of sperm set aside if he decides later that he wants children.

The woman gets stuck with all the work before and after the pregnancy if she gets an unwilling "daddy". If the man "flys" anytime after conception, she gets left holding the bag!

It's a "man" thing Momma! Some "men" feel they are less of a man if they can't knock up a woman at will. They can't stand the thought of being "emasculated" by getting a vasectomy. It's all horseshit, but that's the way it is!

When a man can take over the pregnancy, carry it to term, deliver it, and take over the complete lifetime responsibility of the child ... then he can make the decision. Otherwise, keep it in your pants, or pay the price. Anything else is just whining and crying!! Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

Anon
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:37 pm
Anon,

Look, I get that this is a pretty hot issue for you, ok? I am not saying you are wrong. I haven't said that. I am just trying to figure out why it isn't the responsibility of BOTH parties equally? If you are going to say that the woman should be given more consideration since she is the one that carries the child then I would submit she should take more responsibility in the prevention process?

Sweetie, correct me if I am wrong here, but I thought you were all for someone's right to choose? Laughing
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 12:57 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
Anon,

Look, I get that this is a pretty hot issue for you, ok? I am not saying you are wrong. I haven't said that. I am just trying to figure out why it isn't the responsibility of BOTH parties equally? If you are going to say that the woman should be given more consideration since she is the one that carries the child then I would submit she should take more responsibility in the prevention process?

Sweetie, correct me if I am wrong here, but I thought you were all for someone's right to choose? Laughing


Either party can lie as to whether they have birth control handled or not. The woman gets stuck with the problem ALL the time. It's her body, not his. When it becomes HIS body, then he can decide! A man has options, a woman doesn't. No contraception method is perfect, except ... snip, snip. A woman has a very hard time getting that reversed. A man can plan for it.

I have 3 daughters. One when I was 18, another when I was 19, and a total surprise when I was 26. It was especially bad with #3, because I was married to a different woman at the time. Actually they were all surprises, and the first one caused me to get married the first time. Being an educated man, I instantly got a vasectomy before #3 was even born. I knew I didn't want any other surprises, or any more financial responsibilities. I could have saved a lot of money if I had been smarter ... earlier. By the way, I tried to get Jan's (#3) mother to abort, but she refused. It caused my divorce from my second wife.

I am the example of someone who was too stupid to get a vasectomy earlier, and I paid the price. If I hadn't messed around, I would not have Jan. Instead, rather than whine and cry, I stepped up to the plate and took responsibility for MY MISTAKES!!

Since my vasectomy ... I've had carefree sex since ... an educated mans way out of trouble!!

Anything less is stupid and moronic!!

Anon
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