JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 03:24 pm
The stats on multiple abortions are heavily weighted to NYC, Maryland, and Hawaii with those three places averaging almost 65% repeat abortion rates. I have no idea what the causes are in those three spots, but the 54% number of no previous abortions would be much higher without those three.

repeat abortions
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 05:58 pm
Re: Abortion
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
I recently read that something like 48% of the women who have had abortions, have had more than one.

This has shaken to the core my belief that a women's decision about continuing a pregnancy is one which is taken with the most profound deliberation.

If almost half of the women having abortions are on their second abortion, in a world where contraceptives are incredibly easy to obtain, what does this tell us about the current societal application of abortion?

If this statistic is valid then I utterly reject the histrionics of Senator Fienstein concerning back alley abortions using rusted hangers.

Anyone who goes back to the abortion clinic for a second time, did not have a life altering experience with the first one.

If this statistic is accurate (and I am researching it as we post) then it has moved a Pro-Choice Conservative to the Pro-Life camp.



You have set forth a moral judgment. Implicit in your statement above is a willingness to forgive a woman for her first transgression if she learns a "life altering" lesson, and a willingness to morally condemn her and to deprive her of her liberty interests if she doesn't conform herself to your views of right and wrong.

Fortunately for the people of this country, your moral views alone have no relevance in the application of our constitutional principles. See, e.g., Lawrence v. Texas:

Quote:
Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct. . . .

. . . It must be acknowledged, of course, that the Court in Bowers was making the broader point that for centuries there have been powerful voices to condemn homosexual conduct as immoral. The condemnation has been shaped by religious beliefs, conceptions of right and acceptable behavior, and respect for the traditional family. For many persons these are not trivial concerns but profound and deep convictions accepted as ethical and moral principles to which they aspire and which thus determine the course of their lives. These considerations do not answer the question before us, however. The issue is whether the majority may use the power of the State to enforce these views on the whole society through operation of the criminal law. “Our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code.” Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833, 850 (1992). . . .

In his dissenting opinion in Bowers Justice Stevens came to these conclusions:

“Our prior cases make two propositions abundantly clear. First, the fact that the governing majority in a State has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice; neither history nor tradition could save a law prohibiting miscegenation from constitutional attack. Second, individual decisions by married persons, concerning the intimacies of their physical relationship, even when not intended to produce offspring, are a form of “liberty” protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Moreover, this protection extends to intimate choices by unmarried as well as married persons.” 478 U.S., at 216 (footnotes and citations omitted).

Justice Stevens’ analysis, in our view, should have been controlling in Bowers and should control here.


http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZO.html
0 Replies
 
Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 06:35 pm
I am uncomfortable with abortion. But being male, I will never have to decide whether or not I should have one. In India, and other countries, abortion is used to produce children of the "right" sex, usually male. That bothers me. But again, it is not a choice I will ever need make.

Should a bunch of cells (or a three month old fetus) be accorded the same rights as an infant, or an adult human being? Despite the certainty both sides profess, the reality is it's legal standing is arbitrary, which is to say, whatever we as a society choose. The evidence for either view is more a matter of definition and cultural (including religious) custom than fact. It is what we say it is.

The need -and demand- and practice- of abortion will continue regardless of it's legal status. So, if you are anti-abortion, it seems to me the best way to work against it is not to lobby for legal remedies which will remain as contentious and divisive as the status quo, but rather to work on changing the social and economic climate which make women choose it.

When conservative Christians advocate sex education, birth control, and family planning, I will believe they are interested in the welfare of the unborn, rather than forcing women to conform to their vision of decency (housewives with babies, dependent on men), which has always seemed to me to be their true agenda.

Not addressing that last bit to anyone on this thread in particular.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 07:07 pm
Yes Greyfan, sex education works in other countries, why
not in the US? In fact, the United States has the highest number of teen pregnancies of any other industrial nation.

Even a fundamential Christian cannot close its eyes to those numbers, yet abstinence is the only answer they come up with.

Pro life activists don't educate their children and have them
not attend sex education classes. They rarely get involved
with special needs children, the foster care system or adoption.

My understanding of pro life is primary the care of life that
is already born, as opposed to exhausting all efforts to stop women from terminating a pregnancy.

If I were pro life, that's where my concern and emphasis would be.

Incidentially, I have adopted a child out of foster care, and from what I have experienced and seen while involved with the child care system, there are never enough loving hands
to help out.

What a shame that the pro life activists are busy otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 07:10 pm
Calamity Jane,

Do you really believe that fundamental Christians (all of them?) think abstinence is the only answer? I don't. Sure, some do, but I really don't think they all do.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 07:14 pm
You're right MOAN, I wrote "a fundamential Christian"
instead of "some" - there are exceptions with Christians,
with pro life activists, and with any other group too.
Did I cover my back now? Smile
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Jan, 2006 09:03 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
You're right MOAN, I wrote "a fundamential Christian"
instead of "some" - there are exceptions with Christians,
with pro life activists, and with any other group too.
Did I cover my back now? Smile

You did great girl! Laughing
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 09:57 pm
John Creasy wrote:
I say we should sterilize any woman that comes back for a second abortion. F#ck 'em.


yes! of course! sterilization! it worked quite well for the nazis. and the chinese have taken it to new heights.

you are right. america would be so much better if we only used the lessons left to us by hitler and mao.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2006 10:42 pm
Let's start on the Bushes!!

Anon
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 12:59 am
I have no opinion on this but I believe education of youths would help in reducing unwanted pregnancies. First it should made clear to young impressionable teenage girls that sex is not play but life and death. Her life for if she aborts the child she will be psychologically scarred for life in knowing that she had killed her own child. Next if she is still in school or starting a career having an unwanted pregnancy would ruin her chances in continuing her schooling or career as she will likely be the primary caregiver and the male partner will likely not take responsibility. Her life is ruined for sure.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 02:08 am
CalamityJane wrote:
Manche Menschen wollen immer glänzen, obwohl sie keinen Schimmer haben.


CJ, could you please translate your signature line for this no-comprendez-German fella?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 02:13 am
I'm sure, CL can do that better. But for a start: it's a kind of play on (German) words:
some people like to show their knowledge without having the foggiest idea about what they talk.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 07:50 am
Thanks, Walter.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 07:53 am
Avec plaisir :wink:
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 09:59 am
Hi JTT,
Walter has already translated it quite properly, the exact translation would be:

Many people want to shine although they have no shimmer (clue).
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 10:17 am
I'm torn over the issue of abortion. It is something I will never have to do personally and would not ask my wife to do it if the issue where to arise. I find it morally troubling. I am not a christian so it has nothing to do with religious beliefs... I just don't agree with extinguishing a life.

On the other hand, I have seen the results of not getting an abortion. My wifes old boss was raising anywhere from 3 -5 of his daughters kids at any given time. She was addicted to drugs and was constantly getting pregnant, having kids and abandoning them. The dad took all of them in at any given time and even adopted two of them. Most of them had physical or mental problems due to being born with a drug addiction.

The wear and tear got to be to much for the grandpa. He was in his late 60's and trying to raise problem teenagers. he ended up having to send some of them away back to foster care (the ones he didn't adopt). They were abandoned again. I can't imagine these kids have much of a life in front of them. They never really had a chance. Abortion, as disgusting as it sounds, may have been better for all parties concerned.

Of course abortion is not the root problem. The root problem is people not taking responsibility for their actions in the first place. If there was no conception, there would be no abortion.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 12:57 pm
jpinMilwaukee wrote:
Of course abortion is not the root problem. The root problem is people not taking responsibility for their actions in the first place. If there was no conception, there would be no abortion.


exactly, jp.

for what ever reason, many people who are against abortion are also stridently against sex education in school. this isn't directed at you, obviously.

sex is not dirty. sex is not bad. sex is natural and the desire for it is normal.

but, like anything worth having it does come with some responsibility. ya get a puppy, you have to feed it and walk it. seems like an over simplification, but it's not. ya don't walk the puppy, it leaves a mess in the house and everyone has bad feelings, even the dog. ya don't feed it it dies.

so yeah, sex comes with responsibilties, as does the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy.

but it doesn't seem logical to me to withold any kind of information about these things from young people, because of some uptight morality issue, and then harangue the daylights out of them when something unwanted happens.

that's like blaming the puppy for going in the house when you didn't teach him or walk him.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 01:09 pm
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
but it doesn't seem logical to me to withold any kind of information about these things from young people, because of some uptight morality issue, and then harangue the daylights out of them when something unwanted happens.

that's like blaming the puppy for going in the house when you didn't teach him or walk him.


I agree with you DTOM, but there are plenty of people who DO know better yet choose not to take responsibility for their actions. It is more than just an issue of sex education.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 01:14 pm
I agree with jpinMilwaukee on this one. I think the ultimate responsibility is the woman's who got pregnant in the first place. There are, of course, cases in which she has no control, but I suspect the majority of them have plenty of control. I just don't think they exercise that control.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2006 01:17 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
I just don't think they exercise that control.[/b]


They clearly do - although not how you would like it.
0 Replies
 
 

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