FreeDuck wrote:How are you not saying that men have no responsibility for their children, then? In what way, given your scenario, would the man be responsible for a child if the woman chooses "life"?
I'm not saying that men have no responsibility.
I am saying that its his choice,just like its hers.
Remember,if "its her body",then she is totally responsible for the choice she makes.
And since its not his body,then he can choose also.
mysteryman wrote:I am trying to point out a contradiction.
That so called "contradiction" will remain until the day that men can gestate and birth babies. Unless a woman stole your sperm, you cannot be forced into fatherhood. It just so happens that, for you, the control ends at conception. For her, the control ends at viability. You cannot change this without changing nature.
mysteryman wrote:
If I'm not allowed to decide what color you paint your house,then why should I be forced to pay for the paint?
So Democrats, and those who didn't vote, voted differently, don't have to pay federal taxes?
Walter Hinteler wrote:mysteryman wrote:
If I'm not allowed to decide what color you paint your house,then why should I be forced to pay for the paint?
So Democrats, and those who didn't vote, voted differently, don't have to pay federal taxes?
This has nothing to do with taxes.
That is an entirely different matter.
Besides,you dont pay US federal taxes anyway,so why does it concern you at all?
Yes, and I'm a man and we have no children.
Out here.
mysteryman wrote:I am trying to point out a contradiction.
If "its her body" and the man has no say in the decision to have an abortion or not,then why should he pay for the consequences of her decision?
If I'm not allowed to decide what color you paint your house,then why should I be forced to pay for the paint?
There's no contradiction. We've
gone over this once before,
MM, don't you remember?
joefromchicago wrote:mysteryman wrote:I am trying to point out a contradiction.
If "its her body" and the man has no say in the decision to have an abortion or not,then why should he pay for the consequences of her decision?
If I'm not allowed to decide what color you paint your house,then why should I be forced to pay for the paint?
There's no contradiction. We've
gone over this once before,
MM, don't you remember?
Your right,we did have a discussion like this.
Does that mean we cant have it again?
And I stand by what I said then.
If she chooses to have an abortion,or raise the baby,she chooses to assume all financial responsibility.
Remember,"its her body".
Once a baby is born, it is no longer in her body and is the responsibility of both its' parents. What you are saying is that men are not required to support their offspring unless they want to. This means they have no responsibility.
mysteryman wrote:Your right,we did have a discussion like this.
Does that mean we cant have it again?
Without a doubt. I just question the utility of having the
same discussion again.
Debra_Law wrote:Welcome MimiLaura!
Excellent first post.
yup. wanna know what's what, ask the older gals, they know. :wink:
Walter Hinteler wrote:However, here in Europe it not only takes two to tango but for sex as well.
gosh...what does that say about billy idol ??
"ahma dancin' with maselfa, ho, ho,hoho !!"
chichan wrote:I've always found the contradiction re children conceived in rape/incest situations versus other situations. [This doesn't mean I don't recognize the seriousness of rape/incest situations]
Surely all the fetuses are equally innocent. Why would/should there be an exception for fetuses of rape/incest? Do these fetuses become abhorrent little creatures simply because of what a man or a woman has done? [I suppose it's possible for a woman to rape too, with the result that a fetus is conceived.]
The monumental shift in empathy is puzzling to say the least.
Of course you are right: All fetuses are equally innocent. Many people who would ban abortion do not favor an exception in the cases of rape and incest precisely for the the reason you've stated.
To do so though either ignores or disregards the well being of the equally innocent mother.
Having empathy for a women who would otherwise be forced to carry and give birth to the child of her rapist should not be puzzling to anyone.
There are also a goodly number of people who believe that a women's rights over her own body are so absolute that there should be no limitations placed on abortion. If a woman wants to abort her baby in the last week of her pregnancy then that should be her choice.
An absolutely consistent application of a principle is intellectually neat and attractive, but eventually it leads to a scenario where the basis of the principle doesn't hold up, or it comes into conflict with other principles.
This is why abortion is such a difficult issue for so many people who are not comfortable with applying an absolute principle to every scenario ie All abortions should be banned, no abortions should be banned.
Poll after poll has shown that the majority of the American people do not want to have abortion banned, but neither do they want its practice to become casual. In attempting to consider and protect the rights of both mothers and unborn children, an uneasy compromise is struck, but in order for it to hold, there must be balance. Both sides must feel that they have gained, but both sides must feel as if they have lost as well.
Rape and incest are both hideous crimes, partly because of the possibility that an unwanted pregnancy may result.
As long as it remains uncertain when human life (or personhood) begins, we should not try to erase these crimes by aborting fetuses.
echi wrote:Rape and incest are both hideous crimes, partly because of the possibility that an unwanted pregnancy may result.
As long as it remains uncertain when human life (or personhood) begins, we should not try to erase these crimes by aborting fetuses.
so, it's better to have the woman relive a violent, hateful and degrading experience every day of her life ?
no way.
and what of the quality of life for the child after it's born? great, nothing like being detested by your mother. and if she's married, her husband.
would you wish that on your wife, daughter, sister or mother ?
and would you wish that on a child born of their rape ?
echi wrote:Rape and incest are both hideous crimes, partly because of the possibility that an unwanted pregnancy may result.
As long as it remains uncertain when human life (or personhood) begins, we should not try to erase these crimes by aborting fetuses.
DontTreadOnMe wrote: so, it's better to have the woman relive a violent, hateful and degrading experience every day of her life ?
no way.
"As long as it remains uncertain when human life (or personhood) begins..." The alternative might be murder.
Quote:
and what of the quality of life for the child after it's born? great, nothing like being detested by your mother. and if she's married, her husband.
I believe that every child's life is of high quality.
Quote:would you wish that on your wife, daughter, sister or mother ?
I would not wish rape or incest on anyone.
Quote:and would you wish that on a child born of their rape ?
On a child born of their rape I would wish that she have the opportunity to have wishes of her own.
A child is not alive at conception. Because the fetus could not survive on its own.
you may not wish a rape on any woman, but it happens.
i find it so paradoxical that folks with your view espouse so much compassion for a fertilized egg, but so little for a fully mature and delivered child and the adult she becomes.
i beg to differ, but not every child has a life of quality. many have a life of pure strife. poverty, violence and abuse, ill-health with no treatment, and an overall handicap getting a solid foundation for a half way decent life.
of course, some are brought in to the world by parents who do want a child and just aren't up to the task. but too often, it is because in one way or another, the child is not wanted. not ready, ready but no money, never intend to have children,.... rape.
in any case, unwanted means..unwanted.
that feeling of being burdened, or in the case of rape, violated, is gonna seep out and run all over that kid. history shows us, that child is most likely going to grow up and visit that onto their children much in the way that sexual child abuse continues to turn up like a bad penny.
that sounds an awful lack of compassion to me.
let's look at the definition of compassion;
com·pas·sion (k?m-p?sh'?n)
n.
Deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it.
Sympathetic, sad concern for someone in misfortune: commiseration, condolence, empathy, pity, sympathy.
the view you are presenting appears to offer compassion only when it is in line with what you want. that's not compassion, that is desire.
de·sire (d?-z?r')
tr.v., -sired, -sir·ing, -sires.
To wish or long for; want.
To express a wish for.
A request or petition.
The object of longing: My greatest desire is......
Sexual appetite; passion.
being male, i have no real understanding of what an unwanted pregnancy really puts a woman through. but i do have compassion for them. as a local clergyman said in an article here this morning (regarding an unrelated topic), "walk a mile in their shoes". i can't. but i can relate to their situation in terms of experiencing an unwanted biological/medical development. good thing that heart surgery is legal and safe. like i said, "unwanted is unwanted".
i can't help but feel that for some, compassion is only offered as long as they approve of how the suffering is attained.
just for the sake of it, let's imagine the situation is reversed.
a woman, after much difficulty, finally becomes pregnant. this is just what she wanted for her life. right on track.
but, there are some people, who because of their desire for her to experience life the way that their beliefs dictate ("we know what's best for her"); insist that she must immediately have the fetus aborted, whether she wills it or not.
how does that sound to you ?
That's all well and good, but I've already tried to argue the case of a child that IS wanted, albeit "only" by the father. This seems to make no difference to those that are abortion-happy.
DTOM--
Thank you for not ripping me a new one. I appreciate your respect.
DontTreadOnMe wrote:you may not wish a rape on any woman, but it happens.
i find it so paradoxical that folks with your view espouse so much compassion for a fertilized egg, but so little for a fully mature and delivered child and the adult she becomes.
Quote:the view you are presenting appears to offer compassion only when it is in line with what you want. that's not compassion, that is desire.
Like I stated earlier, I just don't know at what point "personhood" begins. I am open to any evidence that anyone might have; I am not promoting any sort of hidden agenda. Many of those who agree with my position on this subject would, I'm sure, disagree with my position on many others.
I do have tremendous compassion for any woman in this kind of situation, which is the main reason for my interest in discussing the subject. And I recognize that if I were personally and emotionally involved in a situation like this it is very possible that I would form a different opinion.
However, since I am able to consider it in a more detached sense, I rely mainly on my intellect and the information that I have thus far received and understood.
The way I understand it, the possibility of an unwanted or unplanned pregnancy is a big part of why the crimes of rape and incest are so heinous. To legitimize abortion (
if, in fact, a fetus is a "person") is to diminish the seriousness of these acts while committing another that may even be worse.
I have personal experience with this. I was raped when I was a very young teen. I became pregnant. I knew it was a child from the moment I knew I was pregnant. I did not for one second think of an abortion.
I lost the baby in my fifth month. I would have loved that child. That child was part of me no matter who the father was. I would have been nothing less than selfish if I had not given that child a chance at life. That child did not ask to be created. True, in cases of rape, the woman does not ask for the child to be conceived. But, once it is, I believe she should take the high road and deliver that child.
She can always give it up for adoption. There are so many people that want a child and cannot have them.
And John Creasy, I know you would step up to the plate and take care of your child. I wish more men would do the same.
