We have so much else in common, except religion. We're both training to be computer scientists, we're both artists, we're both completely juvenile, we have similar views of what we want in our future...and we get along well, but there's this religion thing.
I try, I try, to forget about this issue...but it has come up several times, and I know this won't be the last time. I am a pretty deep thinker, and I like to talk with her about what I'm thinking about, and a lot of that is trying to understand my place in the life and this inevitable leads to God.
In general, I do not respect the religious viewpoint. In my opinion it is an irrational misconception. This is something I really want my soulmate to agree with me on! How can I go around insulting other people for something when she fits the same categories...I can't. I respect her, and for the most part I respect her opinions and her judgement, but just not on this issue.
If she merely believed in some spiritual force and did not assign it any specific roles, I would be fine with that. Einstein believed in a form of God, but that did not cause him to ignore scientific evidence.
I thought it was this way with her, but now I am not so sure -- I am not sure if she believes in evolution. Or in the big bang. I don't know what else. She is obviously tight-lipped on this subject because she knows that I take this stuff very seriously.
The other day, she mentioned that she wasn't sure evolution was the only possibility...and mentioned the shroud of turin as evidence! I was so shocked that she would be decieved by this kind of prank. In fact, I recall earlier that she was also partial to the conspiracy theory that men had never been on the moon.
This is, truly, a nightmare. I don't know what to do. She is a rational person, but her parents are completely irrational. They are completely superstituous, much more so than her...but she has clearly picked some of this up.
I feel embarrased having to continuously explain that certain things are completely completely insubstantiated. She has the excuse that she only moved to the states 6 years ago, so a lot of what I guess is common knowledge to us is not so obvious to her.
She is reasonable, so perhaps it would be possible to collect all the evidence for these things she brings up, and present it to her in a cool and logical fashion...but what if I do if her mind refuses to accept the truth, having these falsities impressed in her brain too early on?
I will not bring children into this world if she is going to brainwash them. I don't want to undermine her either.
I can't believe I am going to say this, but I agree with Anon-Voter. If you cannot accept her beliefs in any way then for her sake, if not yours, do not continue in the relationship.
The Bible tells us to not be unequally yoked. So if she believes in God and you don't or she is a Christian and you aren't and are positively sure you won't change your views, the best thing for both of you would be to part ways.
Just look at some of the discussions on these threads between the believers and non-believers. Already you call her beliefs superstitions. To her, they are not superstitions. With such a difference in religious views, I would say you will have many, many disagreements. Her decisions will be made with her beliefs in mind.
I wish all the best for you. I know this must be difficult for both of you. Just do what is best for all concerned. If it bothers you this much already, it will only get worse.
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edgarblythe
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Thu 5 Jan, 2006 10:55 pm
I once had a girlfriend I felt inclined to marry. Then the subject of religion became important enough in her eyes that she insisted I would have to go to church on a regular basis. I did not want to, but I dumped her.
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Green Witch
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Thu 5 Jan, 2006 10:57 pm
I speak as a woman married to an atheist scientist. He does not believe in any religion and I believe in all of them (to a point). I do believe evolution is a fact, but I also think there is something spiritual in the universe. My husband and I have agreed to disagree and we don't discuss religion or even spiritual beliefs very often. We all draw our own lines. I could not have married a Republican, but an atheist is not a problem for me.
We don't want children, so that is not an issue with us. However, I was raised in a mixed religious household. My parents solved it by saying "go figure it out for yourself and here are the books". I'm well read in most religious literature and have attended ceremonies within all the major religions. It was a good education and made me more tolerant of people's differences.
I think you need to find out exactly where your girlfriend stands on these issues. If you really feel her views are ignorant and repulsive you will have to move on. However, I think you might also find room to compromise and at least find respect for your differences. Never try and "convert" your girlfriend, spiritual beliefs are personal (that goes for her too).
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stuh505
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Thu 5 Jan, 2006 11:53 pm
I would like to hear from more people who have had relationships with varying religious/spiritual perspectives.
Undoubtedly there will be many arguments between us over this if we stay together, but that does not mean I should let her go. Her views are more inline with my own than those of any woman I have previously met. I'm never going to find someone who is going to be argument-free.
I do not see why her beliefs should be so cast in stone. Certainly mine are not. As new evidence about life becomes apparent, I consider it, and if it is rational I accept it. If some good evidence for a God ever arises, I will have no problem accepting it as scientific evidence.
I guess it just seems very irrational to have some beliefs that are based on emotion. And then there's the second issue, of being susceptible to belief in conspiracy theories. At least these are something that I can disprove without attacking the core of her feeling for existence.
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Arella Mae
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 12:03 am
I can speak directly to this stuh505. I was married to a man once who totally disbelieved the Bible. Completely discounted it. Believed in evolution and all that science stuff. It caused a lot of problems for us. He could't understand why I was so stubborn about my faith and I couldn't understand why he couldn't understand I believed God was superior to man.
First, my beliefs and faith is not based on emotion. I realize to you it may seem so. Just understand I am sure it is hard for your girlfriend to understand how you can want or expect proof of God when belief is based on faith and not proof.
For me, I wouldn't give up my beliefs for anything. I have great faith in what I believe to be true concerning God.
Just because your beliefs are not cast in stone does not mean hers are or aren't. What good would faith in God be if it could be wavering? To me, not good at all.
The fact that you use words like superstition, irrational, and evidence raises red flags for me. But, I have been in this situation before, so, I see them.
I'm not sure who you were talking about concerning conspiracy theories? Her or you?
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sakhi
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 12:04 am
Clearly, your girlfriend does not look at God or religion in the scientific way that you do. She does not want to change her beliefs whereas you are open to changing yours....Faith or belief in God (IMO, at least) is not "rational"...and cannot be reasoned out.
I do not think you should have a problem with her beliefs as long as she does not impose her views. I think you and your girlfriend can discuss and agree not to "preach" your beliefs to your children - you can agree to let them find their own way.
I'm not religious, do not agree completely with any religion. I do NOT believe there's a God. BUT, I pray. Everyday. To whom? I'm not sure (it varies...). Why? Because it makes me feel better, stronger, if i pray. My husband (who is an atheist, does not believe, does not pray, does not visit temples) never understood why I used to pray and why I soemtimes liked to go a temple. I obviously cannot rationalize it but I would expect my loved ones to understand.
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flushd
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 12:33 am
I was once in love with a guy who had strong religious beliefs. He was a weird sort of Christian. I do not hold as strongly to logic and science as yourself, but I could not swallow his brand of God. Sometimes I myself am superstitious, but some of his beliefs were just downright bizarre to me. During certain times, he or I would shut down the communication because we both were certain the other was wrong/weird. It did lead to some serious problems. The relationship eventually ended. He is with someone who shares his beliefs now.
It was the INFLEXIBILITY of thought that truly drove me nuts.
I am now with a guy who completely disbelieves in religion, God, superstition. There is problems there too. My beliefs float in the middle. He gets upset sometimes when I speak of spirituality. My main interest is to have a partner that I can explore these things with. We hash things out fairly well overall. There is a good respect for differences.
My point is, you have to decide if you can live with her and her beliefs as strong as they are.
If you can't, you should probably leave her.
Is it her actual beliefs that bother you so much, or an issue of her not considering other possibilities and hearing your side?
There may be a way to talk about spirituality and these issues without everything exploding. If you see this as something which could impact the future (children, marriage, etc) it needs to at least be addressed. You obviously care about her a lot, so I'd give it one last shot.
Lots of luck stuh.
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stuh505
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 01:19 am
Well she's not a strong Christian. She doesn't attend church. She's not anti-evolution. She's not against science. She doesn't read the bible, at least, I don't think she does. We're both training to be Ph.D scientists. And she IS flexible.
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cicerone imposter
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 01:36 am
stuh, I married a buddhist, and I'm an atheist. I married her because she's one of the most intelligent, wonderful, woman I have ever met in my life. We've been married for over 42 years now, and still going strong. My mother, a christian, was unhappy at our wedding.
What is the most important is to support your wife's religion with the understanding that you have no intention of changing your personal beliefs. When our children were young, I told them to attend church with their mother - to learn the teachings of the buddhist church, and told them they were free to make their own decision once they became adults. Our two boys do not attend any church, but their ethics and sensitivities for others make me proud.
There are too many other important issues that goes beyond just religious belief in a marriage. My wife and I agreed on a small family from the beginning, and our ideas about finances, savings, and other important issues were/are similar.
Just don't try to hang wallpaper with your wife.
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stuh505
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 02:37 am
Thank you for sharing your story, and for making me laugh
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Phoenix32890
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 05:25 am
Quote:
She is a rational person, but her parents are completely irrational. They are completely superstituous, much more so than her...but she has clearly picked some of this up.
It sound like she picked a LOT of her parent's superstitions up. Marriage is difficult enough when you have two people with similar world views, but when two people are diametrically opposed, there is bound to be more serious problems in the marriage.
Think ahead. What will happen if/when you have children, and she wants to raise them to be religious? I think that at the least, people who marry have to have a similar world view.
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edgarblythe
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 05:47 am
In the early stages of a relationship, you tend to minimize potential and developing problems. My first wife was told by her mother she ought not marry an atheist. She replied that she might become an atheist herself. Well, I never told her what to think concerning religion. I thought it sufficient that we knew and respected the other's right to think freely. When we decided to divorce six years later, she brought up religion as one of the big things she held against me. I reminded her that I never once interfered with her right to believe. She countered that I had never seriously entertained her religious belief. Bottom line, she secretly resented my atheism.
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Phoenix32890
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 06:01 am
Quote:
In the early stages of a relationship, you tend to minimize potential and developing problems.
edgarblythe- How true. In fact, what usually happens, when a person is in love, is that what is known as the "halo effect" comes into play.
Quote:
Description
When we consider a person good (or bad) in one category, we are likely to make a similar evaluation in other categories.
It is as if we cannot easily separate categories. It may also be connected with dissonance avoidance, as making them good at one thing and bad at another would make an overall evaluation (which we do anyway) difficult.
Research
Edward Thorndike found, in the 1920s, that when army officers were asked to rate their charges in terms of intelligence, physique, leadership and character, there was a high cross-correlation.
Example
Just because I dress like a rock star, it does not mean I can sing, dance or play the guitar (come to think of it, the same is true of some real rock stars!).
So what happens, in order to minimize the effects of cognitive dissonance, a person tends to maximize the positive qualities of the loved one, and to diminish or ignore the others.In that way, when people do finally settle down, and reality sets in, often the qualities that have been minimized, come to the fore.
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edgarblythe
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 07:09 am
Yup-a-rooty.
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stuh505
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 01:59 pm
Well, it is my experience that good and bad qualities are not randomy distributed among a population but are highly correlated. There are winners and there are losers and there are inbetweeners -- a lot of the losers lose on all fronts.
As to the bad aspects that are ignored initially and surface later, that part makes sense.
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Bella Dea
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 02:01 pm
Stuh, I too think that this is a losing battle for you. Even my husband and I, who have very similar beliefs, butt heads sometimes regarding spiritual issues. It sparks (as you well know) quite the large flame in most people.
Even if you can get past it, what about kids? How would you raise them?
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cicerone imposter
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 02:03 pm
It's not only the "halo effect" at work in the beginning of a relationship. We all try to show our best foot forward, and try our best to minimize friction. I think it's all in the process to win.
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cicerone imposter
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Fri 6 Jan, 2006 02:05 pm
After you're married for a couple of years, pharting becomes a contest.
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