Why have children?

Eva wrote:

Part of being human is acknowledging (and sometimes celebrating!) biological needs and desires.

This part I agree with. Still, we cannot allow ourselves to surrender our better judgment to these biological impulses. I have to eat, but I get to decide what I eat and how much. I get to decide when and where I go to sleep. An even greater degree of self control is possible in regard to having sex. Most people have no problem taking measures to dramatically reduce the chance of pregnancy. Others choose to abstain, altogether. (Six months is nothing!)

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I don't think there's anything in the least bit wrong with exercising that control -- the question is just your reasoning for it.

I would say you have every right to refuse to eat carrots, but if you said that you refused to eat carrots because it hurts their feelings I might take issue.

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Okay, I'm hooked. What in the world are going on about, soz?

What's this you say about carrots?

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I'm separating two things.

1.) Of course you have every right to make a decision about whether you will have a child or not. (You have the right to refuse to eat carrots.)

2.) But several of us think your REASON for not wanting to have children is silly. (Eating carrots hurts their feelings.)

If you said you didn't want to have kids because you didn't want to, fine. If you were saying you didn't want to have kids because your parents were lousy and you have internalized bad parenting habits and don't want to inflict that on any children you may have, fine (though I might suggest parenting classes). If you were saying that you lived in a war zone with a high rate of disease and starvation and now was not the time to bring a child into that, fine. Those are all the equivalent of, you don't eat carrots because you don't like how they taste. Fine. Not silly.

I just think that "I don't want to have kids because the kid might not want to be alive" (lacking the kind of context hamburger provides) is as silly as "I don't want to eat carrots because it hurts their feelings."

It's that particular angle that I'm arguing with -- not your right to make the decision. Of course it's your right.

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sozobe, Well stated. I think it's silly to deny oneself of having children based on "I don't like carrots." If I were a citizen living in another country, I would prefer to be a citizen of the US over all of them. Why? Because we still have a pretty good standard of living with opportunities for a good education and to improve one's economic security, and to better oneself without much external hinderance. With over six billiion humans on this planet, our country is still one of the best places to have children IMHO.

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While I agree I'm so lucky to be in the US, I'd rather live in Olso, Norway! Smile

Norway was rated one of the best places to be a mom and raise children. I wrote down all kinds of very interesting facts since my husband is always looking for reasons to brag about the "greatness of Norway." Laughing

ex. 99% of women there breastfeed
maternity leave is an entire year and you get paid.
lowest crime rate in the world
first 3 years, you get a cash payment of $100 a month if you want to have the kid home with a nanny
free healthcare for kids until 7 yrs old

Sigh.... one day we WILL win the lottery. Razz

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Joahaeyo wrote :
...I'd rather live in Olso, Norway!
...lowest crime rate in the world

you are lucky you haven't been accused of being a socialist ... or worse !
lowest crime retae in the world ... that would mean some a2k members would have difficulty finding an excuse for carrying a handgun- they wouldn't like that :wink: .
i did visit oslo once - even though it was only for a day - , certainly a lovely city .
we visited oslo shortly after the bridge from denmark to sweden was opened , giving quick road access from denmark to norway also .
not all norwegians were in favour of the bridge , "too much riff-raff coming in from the south" , was what some were saying :wink: .
hbg

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We like the climate, geography, and lifestyle here in Northern California. We have 70-degree, blue sky, weather today.

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c.i. wrote :
"We like the climate, geography, and lifestyle here in Northern California. We have 70-degree, blue sky, weather today. "

that sounds very much like a "socialist" fantasy . it might give people the idea that they want to live in peace - we can't allow that :wink: !

(btw not bad right now in eastern ontario , 10 C , a little drizzle , sunshine for the weekend - must be indian summer ).
hbg

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hbg, I'm socialist to the extent, I wish everybody could enjoy what "we" enjoy.

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sozobe wrote:

I'm separating two things.

1.) Of course you have every right to make a decision about whether you will have a child or not. (You have the right to refuse to eat carrots.)

2.) But several of us think your REASON for not wanting to have children is silly. (Eating carrots hurts their feelings.)

If you said you didn't want to have kids because you didn't want to, fine. If you were saying you didn't want to have kids because your parents were lousy and you have internalized bad parenting habits and don't want to inflict that on any children you may have, fine (though I might suggest parenting classes). If you were saying that you lived in a war zone with a high rate of disease and starvation and now was not the time to bring a child into that, fine. Those are all the equivalent of, you don't eat carrots because you don't like how they taste. Fine. Not silly.

I just think that "I don't want to have kids because the kid might not want to be alive" (lacking the kind of context hamburger provides) is as silly as "I don't want to eat carrots because it hurts their feelings."

It's that particular angle that I'm arguing with -- not your right to make the decision. Of course it's your right.

Hmmm...
Well, c.i. understands your analogy, so I have some confidence that it does make sense, somehow, but I sure can't find it.
How is a carrot like a person? I wouldn't say that a carrot feels pain; humans certainly do.

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The carrot is not analogous to a person, that's not the point. We certainly don't eat people (that I'm aware of). But in the sense that we have no idea whether carrots like to be eaten, they are similar to what we know about whether a potential person will be glad to have been born.

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Good clarification, Free Duck. Some people enjoy being alive, and having a full life, while some committ suicide - some at a very young age.

Some get so angry at society, they kill others to prove their point- like Columbine in Colorado.

There are extremes on almost everything that has to do with humanity.

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Oh, that makes sense, but wasn't my intention.

My intention was just to give an example of what I considered a silly justification for an action. Could've been that carrots have feelings so don't eat them, or that if you are asleep at midnight your soul will be stolen -- the point is not analogy but illustration of an argument I consider to be silly.

In each instance I support the person's right to decide not to do something -- don't eat carrots, go to sleep after midnight, don't have kids -- I just don't agree that those are good reasons not to do it.

This branch of the discussion started here:

echi wrote:

Eva wrote:
Part of being human is acknowledging (and sometimes celebrating!) biological needs and desires.

This part I agree with. Still, we cannot allow ourselves to surrender our better judgment to these biological impulses. I have to eat, but I get to decide what I eat and how much. I get to decide when and where I go to sleep. An even greater degree of self control is possible in regard to having sex. Most people have no problem taking measures to dramatically reduce the chance of pregnancy. Others choose to abstain, altogether. (Six months is nothing!)

I replied:

Quote:

I don't think there's anything in the least bit wrong with exercising that control -- the question is just your reasoning for it.

I would say you have every right to refuse to eat carrots, but if you said that you refused to eat carrots because it hurts their feelings I might take issue.

Since then I've been expanding on that idea.

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sozobe wrote:

My intention was just to give an example of what I considered a silly justification for an action. Could've been that carrots have feelings so don't eat them, or that if you are asleep at midnight your soul will be stolen -- the point is not analogy but illustration of an argument I consider to be silly.

In each instance I support the person's right to decide not to do something -- don't eat carrots, go to sleep after midnight, don't have kids -- I just don't agree that those are good reasons not to do it.

I see where you're coming from, now. Thanks.
I also agree that your examples are silly.

And, just so we're clear, I always assumed that you did support my right to decide not to have kids.

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Cool. :-)

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hamburger wrote:

"...how joyful the people's lives are despite their plight..."

well , i must have been watching the wrong pictures ... many of the people are so emaciated they no longer are able to think or smile .
i don't deny that some of those people are cheerfull - as long as they have some hope of survival , it seems to me .
there are also many that simply have no hope of survival - they know that their children are going to die of starvation and they don't look "joyful" to me .

i don't want to be a spoilsport , but you might want to re-read my earlier post .
hbg

I'm sorry, hamburger. Obviously what I wrote came across much differently than I meant it. Of course there are people living in misery, people whose existence is worse than death. I never meant to suggest otherwise. I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses. There are plenty of good reasons to be miserable in this life. God knows I've spent more than my fair share of years battling despair and depression, and my life has been very good compared to many around the world.

But...

That's just one side of it.

My point, if I can articulate it properly, is that one's attitude toward life is not always dependent on one's condition.

Sometimes people who are blessed with good health, financial stability, meaningful work and loving relationships still do not consider their lives worth living. And conversely, some people in great pain, in hopeless poverty, who seemingly have nothing to live for...still manage to sing. I cannot comprehend it, but I have seen it over and over. The resilience of the human spirit amazes me.

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echi, I absolutely respect your right to decide not to have children. It is your life, and parenting is not right for everyone. IMO, there are too many people who have had children without thinking it through.

I have to ask, though...do you respect my decision to have a child?

Why have children?

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