Why have children?

FreeDuck...I hope you haven't given up. I like where you were going with that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're still thinking about it.

echi, you may be new but you're hosting an interesting discussion. Sometimes these things stay precisely on topic, more often they wend hither and yon... :-) So feel free to take it wherever you want.

I definitely agree that having a child is a huge gamble. And again, I think it is a highly individual decision, with no one right or wrong answer. It's not that everyone should have a child, nor that nobody should.

That seems to be a popular view. Isn't it possible that there is one right or wrong answer, and that it may just not be so easy to find? I mean, if there isn't, I can surely accept that, but I would at least want to know why the question is unanswerable. That's reasonable, isn't it?

I think because it is so heavily dependent on circumstances, and circumstances vary so much.

I have a five-year-old daughter who I love very much, who brings great joy, and who is herself, in her own words, "the happiest kid in the universe." I can't imagine any credible thesis or dictum that would indicate that I should not have had her.

But I know many people who are wonderful, happy people, and don't have children. I would not consider a thesis or dictum that would indicate that they are doing the wrong thing to be credible, either.

No no, I'm still here and reading along. Soz had some interesting points and it's a fascinating discussion. I didn't really have much to add to that. I guess I really firmly believe that there is no one right answer because it's all a matter of perspective.

Well, FreeDuck and sozobe, you've both pretty much exhausted me. I like things to be black and white. No, I believe that everything is black and white, but that sometimes, despite how hard we try, we are only able to see shades of grey.
Like you pointed out, FreeDuck, we don't know what experiences, if any, precede our existence in human form. It may be that in some pre-conception state of whatever, there are "beings" cutting in line to get here. Maybe our strong drive to procreate is an indication of that.
I think libido is somewhat similar to hunger and thirst. We recognize these as good because they cause us to seek nourishment. And, hunger and thirst are probably no less mysterious when it comes down to it.
I make the mistake sometimes of putting too much stock in words. I have to remind myself that using them in order to find satisfaction can sometimes cause a backfire. Insanity. If it's so hard that it breaks your shovel, don't try diggin' it by hand, right?

Nah, digging is good. If you're lucky, you find treasure, but in the worst case it just makes you tired enough to go to sleep.

There may be absolute truths and it's possible that it is black and white, but I don't think that we could possibly see such truths from our minute little view of the world. Doesn't mean we shouldn't keep looking.

I once fancied that children (babies, humans) chose their parents and chose when to come into being. It's an interesting idea -- that we don't choose them but they actually choose us.

Or we choose each other. Anyway, what is choice? I think it's the other side of cause and effect. Determinism and Free will livin' in perfect harmony.

One of our members, DrewDad, related a story in which his tiny daughter said of her tinier sister that she missed her until she was born, and that the sister was behind her on (a bed, I think). Some sort of implication of pre-birth consciousness, siblings lined up until they were born.

When my daughter was a little younger than that she gave a stunningly accurate account of what it was like to be in mama's tummy -- what I remember was "what did it sound like?" "ball" [making dribbling BOOM BOOM BOOM] motions. Also "what color?" "Red."

So I dunno, maybe that was an accurate account of life before birth from DrewDad's daughter.

echi, I do think that insisting on seeing only black and white is the path to insanity. There can be some very broad extremes -- be nice, don't be mean, etc. But the more detailed you get, the more gray it gets. Or, more specifically, the more detailed you get the more gray it appears, with the mass actually being made up of a whole bunch of different black and white individual situations. (That one's black -- but that other, similar one with a few crucial differences is white...)

Good question. Isn't choice directly related to control? And how much do we really control so how much do we really choose? I don't mean that having children is something that can happen against our will (in this country, anyway), but how much of deciding to have children is actually our independent, mental decision. There are hormones, seasons, other people's influences, etc... I guess that's why I call it an instinct, and maybe I'm wrong, but I see it as something that I don't completely control but that I have some say in.

Did anyone happen to see that special on abc the other night... The End of the World, or something like that? They asked a bunch of people what they would do if they found out the world was gonna end soon. One lady (I couldn't believe it) actually said that she would want to experience giving birth! I almost vomited knowing that she's the same kind of animal as me. What a sick b*tch! Is that how people are? Is that motherly love? Sick! I thought I was done with this thread, but now I wish I could rename it: "People who have kids are either reckless or wicked."

She obviously wasn't thinking through the situation.

Im not keen on having kids but Id like to be a mother.

Someone said to me the other day that she knew a woman who was repulsed by pregnant women and called the babies parasites!!

I agree with you, Chai. But she apparently thought it through a little, because she prefaced her statement by saying something like, "Oh, I know this is gonna sound incredibly selfish, but..."
I think her statement is pretty revealing.

material girl-
Sounds like that lady has some kind of phobia, or something. Interesting.
As for people who want to be parents (I include myself in that group), guess what... there's a great big group of parentless kids out there. Take your pick!

When I was single I was not convinced that I wanted children. I told my boyfriend at the time (who also was not convinved he wanted children) that if I he never wanted children we could not date because although I was not sure if I wanted to have kids, I always wanted the option.

Well, we have been together for over seven years, married for five and we just had our second daughter. I never thought I could be a mom and everyone who knew me didn't think it would ever happen, but things change. I actually find that being a mom suits me and I NEVER thought it would.

I would say if you don't want to have children make sure to talk about it fairly early in the relationship. Also leave your options open.

Hi, catwoman.

Congratulations!

Welcome to the forum!

And, thanks for posting to my thread.

Glad to be here. Glad to be of any help.

I know how tough it is to say you don't think you want children. The gasps, strange looks, and raised eyebrows always follow. People will always expect that outcome when you get married. It's the first question people have when you do get married "When are you having kids?". It's the first thing they say after you have your first child "Do you think or when will you'll have another?". (I hate that!)

My husband and I never rushed things. We do everything in our own time. When we decided to try and get pregnant we took the "If we can't get pregnant, we will spend our lives traveling" approach. We made it clear to our families that we were not going to jump through any hoops to get pregnant or have children ie. adopt. If we couldn't then it was not in "Gods" plan. We managed everyones expectations (basically not to have any).

Then of course we got pregnant right away. I will never regret the change in direction my life took. I had a really good time in my younger days and I look back with no regrets. That is what you have to ask yourself with any direction you chose. How will you feel about your life once you make your decisions? If you can be cool with it, then it was the right thing to do.

I know this is none of my business (so don't answer if I am out of line) but have you had any changes in your thoughts since posting this topic? It seems many people have responded.

Best,

Catwoman29

Hi, catwoman29!

I appreciate your courtesy. Thank you. But, really, no question to me is out of line (on A2K, anyway). Open and honest conversation is exactly why I come here.

I have not really changed my thoughts on this topic. Well, earlier in this thread I guess I experienced a little turbulence. A few posters challenged my reasoning and got me to consider some new ideas, but eventually I came back around to my original feeling.

I think you're right. With any decision, you have to ask yourself how you'll feel about it in the long term. Of course, a decision to have kids has a lot less to do with how I, or my (hypothetical) wife/girlfriend, will feel about it. The main concern has to do with the child, itself. . . How will he/she feel about it?

The answer, of course, is no one knows. It's a gamble. Some people believe that children somehow choose to be born. I can't think of a good reason to believe in that. I know they sure don't seem too happy about it when it happens.

Hey Echi,

Interesting...children choose to be born? I have never heard that but I will tell you that I do believe that children are miracles and gift from "God" (what ever that means to you --since everyone believes something different).

I just know today I was smelling the top of my six month olds' head and it was heaven.

Anyhow, I was thinking about when my husband and I were about to start trying for our first child. We were lying there saying "are we sure we want to do this"? "We could wait until next month". It's the oh **** moment, life could change forever feeling. It is a scary thought whether you want kids or not. But I truly don't think any of the things you hear or read will change your mind until you meet someone, fall in love and decide together what your path will be.

Just enjoy life and what is meant to happen usually does.

Best-- Catwoman29

echi - I think it also depends on the times. I love children, always wanted them since I was a little girl, and have two who are teen-agers, but I really don't think if I was just starting out, I'd feel comfortable having kids in the world as it is today. I'm so glad mine are almost grown up-I wouldn't want to start facing everything you'd have to face today when you're responsible for raising a child. Because I think it is incredibly different and more difficult and negative in a lot of ways than it was even fifteen years ago.

I'd think about adopting again, because that child is already here- but I wouldn't bring a child another child into the world. I'm running out of faith in the good things in the world- why bring another innocent being into the mess we've created- ecologically, politically, socially,etc., etc.?

I've always thought having kids was basically a selfish act. But as Catwoman said, it's so wonderful in so many ways, we allow ourselves that selfishness. But now I think, we have to start thinking about the kids we'll be leaving behind after we're gone. With the world the way it is and heading in the direction it's heading, maybe it's gotten to the point where we're tipping the scales at being too selfish when we have children - unless we spend our whole lives really working hard to make real change so we can leave them a better world.