Why have children?

echi wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
How do you know, echi, that you didn't choose to be born?
I have considered that idea. . . even earlier in this thread, I think. I wish that it were true, but I can't find enough reason to convince myself. It is more likely just wishful thinking.

I guess the point is that we don't know and can't know. And just because you are not happy that you were born does not mean that you should deny another person a chance to be happy that they were born. The fact is, from the way that you're looking at it, either way you are making that choice for this non-existent being. Either you choose to bring them into the world or choose to prevent them from coming into the world. From your perspective, those are both gambles that you make with something that doesn't belong to you.

But, in general, there is no really logically sound reason to have children while there are many reasons not to have children. Having children means you forfeit control over the outcome. You plant the seed and it grows or it doesn't and your control of the situation pretty much ends there. If a person needs to feel some sort of guarantee of the outcome, they can't or shouldn't have children.

BTW, I don't believe that only mentally ill people commit suicide. And I do think it is a viable option for those who truly wish not to be alive. That's not a recommendation, though.

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echi wrote:

Thanks for posting, Joahaeyo.

You represent a very popular point of view: "How does having a baby affect ME?"
I am already convinced of the euphoria you must feel, as I am a very proud uncle, myself. I love kids. (I love dogs, too, BTW!) But I consider having a child to be the ultimate selfish act. Everything we do is basically selfish, in a sense, although our actions can also benefit others. But to create a new being, who will inevitably endure great suffering, IMO seems the height of conceit.

[I don't mean to offend anyone. These are my true thoughts.]

I understand completely what you're saying, echi. This world is a living hell with some good moments thrown in just to keep you hooked - like playing golf! I agree with you - I have had three children - love them dearly, but yes, if I really cared about THEM, I wouldn't have brought them into this place. I think it IS a selfish act - of course it is. If you think about the potential pain and confusion and suffering they will likely face, I ask why would you subject them to that? And you don't know its future - will it be another genius? Or ... (Jaws music) another Jeffry Dahmer? How many times will they be rejected? Ridiculed? Mocked? Ignored? Stepped on, walked over, taken for granted, taken advantage of? Will they lose a child? A limb? A best friend? Their trust and illusions? Their hope or sanity?

There are wonderful moments, but generally, I think the pain is worse. Personally, for me, I think this. But... hey, here we are, and we should make the best of it. At least, I think we should. I like to maintain a positive outlook (really, I do - lol), but, I still look forward to the end where it will be peaceful with no hurt or pain Smile

I welcome it. Or is this too gruesome for you guys? I'm not talking about suicide, either. A natural death (unless you're terminally ill and in major pain, in which case, give me the dope and the wine).

I'm really surprised to find someone with the same feelings as me - or someone brave enough to say them aloud... I've only ever met one person who thought this way and we're related Smile

This has been a treat.

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echi --

Would you rather, then, that humanity died out?

We are made to reproduce. It is a basic function of life. If there were no next generation, life would have very little meaning for there would be no future.

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Not everyone is made to reproduce, Eva... some people are homosexuals. Some people are barren... just to name a couple of reasons... but if you're talking 'generally', with 6 billion people on the planet, I can't see it dying out any time soon.

But would it really be so awful if it did?

(smiley face)

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This reminds me of a conversation I had with a coworker a while back. It was along these same lines: he was arguing for children, I was arguing against, even though I had a child at the time and he did not. His argument was that we had to reproduce so that the human race would continue to exist and seemed to take if for granted that extinct humans was the worst possible outcome. And I said what mame said, so what? In the grand scheme of things we are but a speck.

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I have a completely different take on life; to me life means to experience all the good and the bad that life throws at you. As a young boy, I felt many times like you do; life just isn't worth it. However, after I completed my four years in the air force and bummed around for a couple of years, my life changed dramatically for the better, and what happened since then and I now is almost like a dream.

Having been the black sheep of our family, I barely finished high school, but I earned my degree in accounting in my early thirties. After working as a traveling auditor for Florsheim Shoe Company for the first 3.5 years, they promoted me to Audi tManager. Since then, I've worked in management positions for the rest of my professional career. I retired early, and now travel the world as often as I like. I have friends all over the world including many in the US.

My wife chose me over two doctors and an engineer when I didn't even have a college degree. Her parents were unhappy about her choice, but later in life, they have grown to accept me.

Both our sons are above average scholastically; our older son graduated summa cum laude and with honors when he earned his masters from the University of Texas in Austin. Our young son is a A- student. Both are good sons.

Miracles do happen.

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FreeDuck wrote:

echi wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
How do you know, echi, that you didn't choose to be born?
I have considered that idea. . . even earlier in this thread, I think. I wish that it were true, but I can't find enough reason to convince myself. It is more likely just wishful thinking.

I guess the point is that we don't know and can't know. And just because you are not happy that you were born does not mean that you should deny another person a chance to be happy that they were born. The fact is, from the way that you're looking at it, either way you are making that choice for this non-existent being.

The "non-existent being" does not exist; my choice does not affect what doesn't exist.

Quote:

BTW, I don't believe that only mentally ill people commit suicide. And I do think it is a viable option for those who truly wish not to be alive.

Regardless of whether or not suicide is only a result of mental illness, it is not necessarily a viable option for someone who is unhappy about having been born. Wishing you had never been born is not the same as wanting to die.

Quote:

That's not a recommendation, though.

(Thanks.

)

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echi wrote:

The "non-existent being" does not exist; my choice does not affect what doesn't exist.

Sure it does... your choice affects whether or not it exists. That's big.

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Eva wrote:

echi --

Would you rather, then, that humanity died out?

We are made to reproduce. It is a basic function of life. If there were no next generation, life would have very little meaning for there would be no future.

I don't wish for humanity to die out; that is not my concern, here. Eventually, though, our species will become extinct. Is it fair to pass that buck to a future generation?

I don't accept the argument that we are made to reproduce. We are capable of reproduction (most of us, anyway), but our decisions should not be directed only by our capabilities. Some of my capabilities would land me in jail or get me killed.

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sozobe wrote:

echi wrote:
The "non-existent being" does not exist; my choice does not affect what doesn't exist.

Sure it does... your choice affects whether or not it exists. That's big.

Well, then I should win the "Father of the Year" award. Razz

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Sounds like you have a pretty amazing life, CI.

Hey, does the S&R gang know that you believe in miracles??

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You're gambling that your potential offspring would rather NOT exist than exist. You simply can't shirk that responsibility, in those terms. You're gambling no matter what. (Again, there are plenty of valid reasons not to have a child, I just don't think this is one of them.)

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sozobe wrote:

You're gambling that your potential offspring would rather NOT exist than exist. You simply can't shirk that responsibility, in those terms. You're gambling no matter what. (Again, there are plenty of valid reasons not to have a child, I just don't think this is one of them.)

sozobe.

If I could gamble with something that doesn't exist and may never exist, I would move to vegas. It just doesn't make any sense (to me).

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I can tell you are failing to get your mind around that, that's the problem.

I'll try to come up with some analogy that might help -- I just thought of an architect/ building thing that may work or may not but I've been telling my husband "just a minute!" for about 15 minutes now and really need to go. A demain...

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Mame wrote:

Not everyone is made to reproduce, Eva...

I was not speaking individually, Mame, but collectively. In general terms, human bodies are made for reproduction. That's what breasts, vaginas, uteruses (sp?), ovaries, testicles, penises (sp?), etc. are for. The pleasure associated with sex is primarily there in order to insure the survival of our species. (And what a great job it does!)

Like it or not, our brains as well as our bodies are programmed for reproduction. And survival. So the question "Why have children?" can easily be answered, "Because that's how we're made."

On a side note: I disagree totally with the idea that life is mostly painful and unpleasant. What a lousy attitude. Life is a gift, and it should be lived that way. (High five to c.i.) Once you've come close to losing your life, you realize how precious it is.

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echi wrote:

...It just doesn't make any sense (to me).

If that is how you feel, then you are absolutely right...you shouldn't have children.

Be aware, however, that one day you may wake up and find that suddenly, it makes all the sense in the world.

It happened to me. :wink:

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Eva wrote:

Like it or not, our brains as well as our bodies are programmed for reproduction. And survival. So the question "Why have children?" can easily be answered, "Because that's how we're made."

Your answer suggests that we are slaves to our bodies.

Now, that's what I call a lousy attitude.

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eva wrote :
"On a side note: I disagree totally with the idea that life is mostly painful and unpleasant. What a lousy attitude. Life is a gift, and it should be lived that way. (High five to c.i.) Once you've come close to losing your life, you realize how precious it is. "

yes , for many/most people in the "better off" countries of the world , life is usually pretty good .
even having lived through WW II as a boy didn't turn me off ; i still enjoyed life most of the time . and now in "old age" , i find life quite agreeable - even though the old joints start to creak :wink: .

however , when i see how many children in africa and other countries have to grow up ... disease , malnutrition , and often early death or disfigurement from disease , i ask myself if that is really fair to those children ?
why do they have to live in such poverty when mother earth has so many riches - many of which are despoiled or thrown away every day ?

there seems to be plenty of money to kill all the people of the world several times over , but apparently very little money to feed the truly hungry of this world .
hbg

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I know, hamburger.

What amazes me is the people I've know who have been to Africa, have stayed with those afflicted with horrible diseases and unspeakable poverty, whose lives we might assume are not worth living...how, upon their return, they are filled with stories of how joyful the people's lives are despite their plight. It reminds me of people I've known with terminal illnesses who cheered me up when I came to visit them. They've made me see that life is not worth living only when it is "good."

Talk to me about not being a slave to your body the next time you are hungry, echi. Laughing

Or when you desperately need sleep. Or when you haven't had sex in six months. There's nothing wrong with my attitude. Part of being human is acknowledging (and sometimes celebrating!) biological needs and desires. Here, have some chocolate.

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"...how joyful the people's lives are despite their plight..."

well , i must have been watching the wrong pictures ... many of the people are so emaciated they no longer are able to think or smile .
i don't deny that some of those people are cheerfull - as long as they have some hope of survival , it seems to me .
there are also many that simply have no hope of survival - they know that their children are going to die of starvation and they don't look "joyful" to me .

i don't want to be a spoilsport , but you might want to re-read my earlier post .
hbg

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