Re: The Portrayal of Blacks in Popular Media

That's about one specific novel, not her whole oeuvre. As Lash points out, Walker is not at all one-note in her examination of racism.

(And there we go with more atypical agreement -- does it have to do with the moon, or something?)

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Research her biography and the balance of her books and lectures. And, The Color Purple was more about black family dynamics in a certain situation. Not a whole lotta white influence--except on the periphery--but hell, it bled into life for blacks. How could you not mention it.

You almost can't represent blacks (this is sad) in America, without at least mentioning whites' effect on them. IMO, anyway.

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I've read through the entire thread and tend to agree with those who say that the media doesn't portray anybody or any ethnic group realistically. We say we like realism, but people don't really go to the movies or watch TV for realism. We want to escape or be entertained or thrilled or titillated or moved deeply or whatever. The everyday lives of anybody, white, black, or polka dot, would frankly be pretty boring. The best we can probably hope for is glimpses of reality. So the usual fare are characters like Eddie Murphy, super cop, or Lawrence Fishburne as Morpheus in The Matrix.

There are some movies that do offer glimpses of what I think Snood is thinking about when he refers to the realities of the 'black experience' both present day and historically. Some have been mentioned. Others that come to mind include "Downtown" (Anthony Edwards and Forest Whitaker); "Places in the Heart" (Sally Fields and Danny Glover); or even Keanu Reeves in "Hard Ball".

But what constitutes unstereotypical 'reality' here? Black people who make it big? Is that really all that unrealistic? Or gangbangers in the projects? (politically incorrect) Or something in between? (usually boring) Or the whole gamut?

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I think there aren't any pure blacks any more. Most blacks have at least 20% white blood flowing thru their veins. Look at Tiger Woods he is 1/4 black, 1/4 white, 1/4 Thai, 1/4 Chinese. He is more
Asain than black. His kids will be half Swedish.

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I don't think anyone is pure--some remote Nepalese...the Masai?

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Strike that. I think Kevin Bacon has been with the Masai.

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Lash wrote:

Strike that. I think Kevin Bacon has been with the Masai.

No, Kevin Bacon was with the Winnabis. (The Air Up There) - great flick. Smile

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Sozobe- I am afraid that Dr. Harold Bloom does not agree with you regrading ALice Walker. He wrote:

"By a variant on Gresham's Law, bad writing drives out the good, and social change is served by Alice Walker rathern than by any author of more talent and disciplined imagination"

Dr. Bloom points out, again and again, that the Pragmatic question becomes--What shall I not bother to Read".

As Alice Walker has said( a sentiment which would never occur to Shakespeare)
"As a black person, one cannot completely identify with a Jane Eyre or with her creator, no matter how much one admires them"

It is precisely this attitude which makes it almost impossible for Blacks to produce literature which is universally appealing. Johnny one notes all-------racism--racism--racism-- is the recurring drumbeat.

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The media, seem to me to be most successfully accurate in their representation of blacks and other minority populations when they tell the story of an individual or family, and particularly when they have embraced the concept of presenting a balanced and all-encompassing portrait instead of slanting the story in either a positive or negative direction: eg- Antwone Fisher, Ray, Love Jones, Soul Food, Cooly High.

Unfortunately, blacks most often seem to be grouped together and used to portray or dissect a cultural issue or event in history, and so are assigned roles and often given sterotypical characteristics and dialogue to portray those roles and advance the story in whatever way the producer and director have determined it should go. This usually seems to be an effort to portray black people as white people think they are (or should be- on the rare occasion they are perceived in a positive way). Unfortunately, black individuals and families don't seem to garner the interest that whites do, and I think that's representative of American society. Minorities (as individuals) and their stories are just not as valued- unless they are good at sports or talented musicians.

I like Bernie Mac too - because he's real and he's funny as hell- and Jordan (the little boy) is a hoot. But Bernie Mac has become powerful enough in the industry to be able to be who he wants to be and doesn't have to conform to what anyone thinks a black man should be.

Hopefully with people like Don Cheadle and Jamie Foxx making it in movies now - we'll see a shift. But when white people say they're drawn to movies with people and situations that reflect who they are and bypass others, it makes me sad. Because Rob Brown, the young black man who starred in Finding Forrester, played a character who reminded me of myself (even though I'm a white, middle-class, almost middle-aged woman :wink: ),and I found him to be a realistic representation of many young black men I have taught, though most whites who saw that film probably viewed his character as being a one of a kind paragon or enigma in the black community. By the same token, I also related to Jamie Foxx's character in Collateral- which goes to show that even though people seem to be utterly different on the outside - there might be similar things going on inside of them, no matter who they are or where they come from. If we spent more time together, we'd learn these things about each other.

Interesting topic, Snood.
*Sorry if use of the term "blacks" instead of African-American is offensive to anyone. I use it because the black people in my life have told me they prefer it.

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Thank you so much, Aidan - for a thoughtful and obviously heartfelt reply. I especially liked what you said about identifying with the Jamal character in Forrester. That touches on the jist of what I'm getting at here. That character, his friends, his neighborhood, his experiences - all struck me as genuine. He was a developed character by movies end; he hadn't been written as a stereotype, but was still very much distinguishable culturally as a black man.

When that happens in the portrayal of fiction on TV and movies, the humanity comes through, and the unique cultural identity can remain intact. This is far from the "chimera" I've been accused in this thread of pursuing. The Don Cheadle Character in Crash is another good example of what I'm saying - a nuanced character with good and bad sides, who is still uniquely identifiable as a black man.

It might have been said of those wanting more from the depictions of blacks in hollywood in the 50s that they hunted a 'chimera', for wanting the images on screen to show more than a shuffling clown, or a shiftless good-for-nothing, but that changed. It might have been said about those wanting more than the super-acceptable negro Poitier in the 60s that they hunted a 'chimera', but that changed (albeit very slowly - Poitier himself admits that for too long, he was the ONLY black "star" Hollywood could stomach). Blaxploitation of the 70's changed when folks who wanted more spoke up about the ridiculous one-dimensional aspect of the characterizations. I do not hunt for a chimera, nor do I tilt at windmills. I do not say that it is impossible, because, as cited here, realistic (and marketable) depictions of blacks can be achieved. If I have said or suggested that it cannot be done, I was wrong. I think it takes agitation and awareness for change to happen, and I think we still have a long way to go. But there is a better way than what gets accepted as common practice in the selection process of what gets aired and what does not.

By the way, Mike Rich, who wrote Forrester, is very white. So you see, it can be done!

So you see, it can be done.

As for Mortkat saying this:

Quote:

It is precisely this attitude which makes it almost impossible for Blacks to produce literature which is universally appealing. Johnny one notes all-------racism--racism--racism-- is the recurring drumbeat.

...you have no idea how hopelessly racist this makes you appear. Those people like you who fancy themselves as enlightened and educated but who are entrenched in stupid, wretched notions about what groups of people are or are not capable of, are the worst, most dangerous kinds of ass backwards idiots.

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snood wrote:

Thank you so much, Aidan - for a thoughtful and obviously heartfelt reply. I especially liked what you said about identifying with the Jamal character in Forrester. That touches on the jist of what I'm getting at here. That character, his friends, his neighborhood, his experiences - all struck me as genuine. He was a developed character by movies end; he hadn't been written as a stereotype, but was still very much distinguishable culturally as a black man.

Oooh, sorry, but according to your argument, Finding Forrester is not a good example of a "realistic" portrayal of blacks on the screen. As you stated in your initial post:

I could go on, but the point is that even with their best efforts, Hollywood can only seem to be able to tolerate a person of color as the central figure in very limited circumstances. The person or people of color must be accompanied in the central aspect of the story with a white figure.Unfortunately, Rob Brown is accompanied in the central aspect of Finding Forrester by Sean Connery, a decidedly white actor. So according to your terms, Snood, Finding Forrester is evidence of the problem, not a way to a solution.

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joefromchicago wrote:

snood wrote:
Thank you so much, Aidan - for a thoughtful and obviously heartfelt reply. I especially liked what you said about identifying with the Jamal character in Forrester. That touches on the jist of what I'm getting at here. That character, his friends, his neighborhood, his experiences - all struck me as genuine. He was a developed character by movies end; he hadn't been written as a stereotype, but was still very much distinguishable culturally as a black man.

Oooh, sorry, but according to your argument, Finding Forrester is not a good example of a "realistic" portrayal of blacks on the screen. As you stated in your initial post:
I could go on, but the point is that even with their best efforts, Hollywood can only seem to be able to tolerate a person of color as the central figure in very limited circumstances. The person or people of color must be accompanied in the central aspect of the story with a white figure.
Unfortunately, Rob Brown is accompanied in the central aspect of Finding Forrester by Sean Connery, a decidedly white actor. So according to your terms, Snood, Finding Forrester is evidence of the problem, not a way to a solution.

What is this thread to you, Joe? A chance to play "gotcha"? Okay, you got me - I was wrong to be as exacting in my original thread about what I'd consider 'good' fiction with blacks in it. I was probably wrong to exclude instances where there is a white person sharing central stage as ever having merit. But my central thesis stands - hollywood and the mass entertainment media have a long way to go as far as doing justice to the spectrum of experience of blacks as well as that same spectrum is covered for whites.

In writing this thread, I sincerely attempted to create a topic that is a legitimate issue of contemporary interest, that happens to be close to my heart. I've faltered, but I'll try to keep it on that level, and I hope everyone else will, too.

And as far as my labeling you a republican, Joe - I thought I'd seen you fervently defending Bush and his war. If I was mistaken there, I apologize. If I was correct, anyone could understand the inference.

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Snood, rather thoughtlessly wrote:

I thought I'd seen you fervently defending Bush and his war.

Joe's right, you haven't been paying attention . . .

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snood wrote:

And as far as my labeling you a republican, Joe - I thought I'd seen you fervently defending Bush and his war. If I was mistaken there, I apologize. If I was correct, anyone could understand the inference.

Given that you were incorrect, does that affect your willingness to be self-critical about your own inferences in any way? In my opinion it ought to. You seem to be very sure when you detect racism in the fact that Hollywood stereotypes black people. But I think this inference is as wrong as your similarly confident inference about Joe's politics was. The correct inference, again in my opinion, would have been that Hollywood stereotypes pretty much all groups of people. Some of these groups happen to have a predominantly black membership.

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Thomas wrote:

snood wrote:
And as far as my labeling you a republican, Joe - I thought I'd seen you fervently defending Bush and his war. If I was mistaken there, I apologize. If I was correct, anyone could understand the inference.

Given that you were incorrect, does that affect your willingness to be self-critical about your own inferences in any way? In my opinion it ought to. You seem to be very sure when you detect racism in the fact that Hollywood stereotypes black people. But I think this inference is as wrong as your similarly confident inference about Joe's politics was. The correct inference, again in my opinion, would have been that Hollywood stereotypes pretty much all groups of people. Some of these groups happen to have a predominantly black membership.

I think I'm at least as willing to admit I'm wrong as anyone else on this forum. I admit some of my inferences made in the launching of this thread may not be as firmly rooted in unassailable logical fact as I'd like them to be. I will stand by my later adjusted statement that hollywood has a long way to go in doing justice with its depictions, by and large, of
blacks and other people of color.

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Snood - you're welcome.

I too am frustrated by the lack of films that depict black (or any other minority characters) as living as fully as whites, particularly when it comes to emotions. Their stories are always about what they do or achieve and never about what they think or feel- except when they are overcoming racism or poverty or slavery. Maybe this is why the other posters feel that it is always "one note" that is struck.

Can you imagine movies like "Ordinary People" or "Love Story" cast with black, Latino, or Asian actors? I can't. Why not, though? Because that doesn't fit the mainstream perception of what people think they "know" those people to be, and truthfully, maybe it just wouldn't be as sad to see a lovely young black woman die as it is to see a lovely young white woman die. Sad, but I think for some people it's true. To me it speaks to a lack of empathy. When we really know (and love) people of another race , we believe what they think and feel about things is as important as what our own race thinks and feels about things and we're interested in seeing it depicted.
It would be fascinating to see a movie in which an intact black family deals with the loss of a child, and the subsequent depression of another, for instance. I'm sure it happens all the time - but for some reason, we pretend they don't have the same emotions or deal with the same kind of life problems. I don't know why we have to play it like that-maybe it feels safer to some people or makes it easier for them to feel okay about sticking with their own kind. When you recognize the humanity of another, then you have a responsibility, and maybe that just feels too overwhelming to some folks.

Mortkat - Black literature - huh? Try reading Toni Morrison - although most of her characters are black, her themes transcend racism and if you read carefully, you may find what she has to say universal and transforming. She is a master - her words are like music - you have to be open to it though.

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Snood, I have no issue with the contention that blacks are not portrayed realistically in the media. I feel the same way about the portrayal of lawyers and the legal profession in the popular media. Hollywood, though, doesn't deal in reality, and realistic depictions of anyone may be too much expect from it.*

I hasten to add, however, that blacks have come a tremendous distance in a relatively short span of time. I would venture to guess that an instructive comparison could be made of the way the black natives are portrayed in the 1933 version of King Kong and the way that they will be portrayed in the 2005 version.

*If you want true realism in a movie, I suggest you watch Andy Warhol's Sleep, a 321-minute movie of someone sleeping.

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snood wrote:

I think I'm at least as willing to admit I'm wrong as anyone else on this forum. I admit some of my inferences made in the launching of this thread may not be as firmly rooted in unassailable logical fact as I'd like them to be. I will stand by my later adjusted statement that hollywood has a long way to go in doing justice with its depictions, by and large, of
blacks and other people of color.

This is a fair statement--for as far as it goes. It is not only people of color who are not justly treated in Hollywood and other media depictions. As a descendant of Kelts, i get tired of seeing the drunken Irishman and the stingy Scot showing up as stereotypes. A good many people of Irish or Scots descent promote the same stereotypes--a sort of ethnic version of "uncle Tom." Which leads me to find the most succinct and accurate statement so far in this thread to have been what Joe originally stated, and which Thomas echoes--the media do not potray anyone with justice.

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Setanta:

Quote:

This is a fair statement--for as far as it goes. It is not only people of color who are not justly treated in Hollywood and other media depictions.

And inevitably the point gets made, whenever a black person raises the issue of unequal treatment because of race, that "y'all ain't the only ones!" Okay, I got it. Make sure you hasten over to the thread about Native Americans in media and make that same point - wouldn't want them thinking they're the only ones, either.

Quote:

As a descendant of Kelts, i get tired of seeing the drunken Irishman and the stingy Scot showing up as stereotypes. A good many people of Irish or Scots descent promote the same stereotypes--a sort of ethnic version of "uncle Tom." Which leads me to find the most succinct and accurate statement so far in this thread to have been what Joe originally stated, and which Thomas echoes--the media do not potray anyone with justice.

Okay, I'll buy that for what its worth. But you could make that qualification about anything, couldn't you? I mean if I say "Cops beat up black men", you could say "Cops beat up everyone", couldn't you?
Earlier you said you had wanted a thread about a black person's perspective on this. After seeing my take on blacks treatment in popular media, your opinion is that "Y'all ain't the only ones"?

Black people have a unique and distinct history in this experiment of a republic, I think. And that is true all along the whole timeline, exclusive of no year, and no endeavor. I'm getting a little hint of fatigue for black angst here. I hope I'm wrong, Setanta.

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Re: The Portrayal of Blacks in Popular Media

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