Re: The Portrayal of Blacks in Popular Media

finn, i had thought you might find easier ways to get an erection other than stalking me from thread to thread, but apparently that is not the case.

so, tumesce away little fella'.

That must be it Georgia-Pooch.

Aidan-Your comment about tutors shows that even under the largesse of the Presidents' No Child Left Behind program, tutoring does little or no good.

In the large city system in which I taught and supervised, there was( and still is) a program which allowed parents to enter a lottery for Magnet Schools. It was always mystifying to see that many openings in Magnet Schools were not accessed, especially by those in the Inner City. This is a failure, not of financial aid, or of programming but of culture. The culture of the inner city which is, at this time, largely opposed to the discipline and effort required for real learning.

Jesus Mortkat - Why don't you try to depress me a little more? First of all, I don't even want to think about being twenty-five years older, but certainly not when faced with the thought that things will be the same or even worse than they are now.

The funny thing is, we agree on a lot of points. We're just coming at the situation from opposite angles. I agree with you that the Asian culture instills values that make academic success more likely-we could get into a really interesting conversation about whether or not that is due to characteristics that are inherent in the Asian race (but not here). I don't know what I think about that- I haven't had very many close relationships with people who are Asian, so I can't make any kind of informed statement about similar tendencies, etc., except what I have observed of the Asian students in my school. But I will tell you this - I think stereotyping, even when it's flattering, is dangerous. I know one young man that I would guarantee you has a reading disability, but simply because he is Asian, has never been tested or received help that would have enhanced his schooling. The perception is that Asians don't have learning disabilities, (he told me) and he's really struggled under expectations for him, based on his race, that he feels he can't meet.

Mortkat - who put blacks (in the US) in the ghetto? Do you really think it was a choice that they made one day, "Oh I think I'll go live in this substandard housing and make sure my kids get a substandard education so there won't by any way they can compete and succeed in society." That's the key for me Mortkat - it wasn't a choice blacks made based on their culture or race - it was racism and segregation enforced
by the laws of this country up until forty years ago. That means that the parents of some of the teen-agers you see in highschool today at least started their education in segregated schools (in the south)- not the grandparents- the parents-I know because I have spoken to some of them when I taught in North Carolina. And that doesn't even address the de facto racism that they've been subjected to by this society since the laws were changed.

What might be the effect on a person of daily degradation and dehumanization? You don't even have to think of it racially, think of it generally. What might be the effect of receiving the message every day of your life, subtly or otherwise, that you are not as good, or as valued, or as smart or as interesting, and that there is something inherently wrong with or about you.What effect do you think that would have on a child? I know what effect it might have on me - it would make me resistant to the system that was refusing to accept me as an inherently valuable, equal and contributing participant. It would make me either fold in on myself, or fight back against the system that was rejecting me. My last option would be cooperation and participation in it. Thank God, there are a lot of black people who are smarter and more resilient than I am, who have figured out a way to work within the system and overcome the bullshit it can dish out on them. I've got nothing but respect for them, but I do have to say I understand why some have chosen a different route- whether it's productive or not-I can understand the motives behind the choice. And I don't think the choice has anything to do with the color of their skin or any tendencies that are characteristic of their race, I think it's made because of the experiences and history they've been subjected to in the US.

The black people I know amaze me with their resilience and ability to forgive.

PS- It's not only middle class black kids who emulate Fiddy and Snoop Dogg, whites do too, and so do Asians as a matter of fact. We're just messing up across the board in terms of giving our kids any good values to emulate in the US. But I think we should look at ourselves as people and parents as opposed to blaming it on anyone else. (And calling people "garbage" because you don't agree with their culture or lifestyle just continues that negative cycle Mortkat).

aidan, I'm Asian and agree with you totally; it's dangerous to stereotype any race of people. I will even go one step further and say it's racially bigoted, because it doesn't look at all of the other factors that had/has an impact.

I can tell you about our family; I hve three siblings. Our mother did not encourage us to do well in school, but all of us ended up graduating from college. My older brother was an administrative judge, my younger brother an opthalmologist (now a state legislator in CA), and my sister a RN. My sister has four children. She has never forced or encouraged her children to exceed in school. Her two oldest are physicians, the third son is a dentist, and the youngest got her PhD in Chemistry from UCLA.

I know of many Asians that are not high achievers in school - and that includes me. I was one of the lucky ones, because I eventually earned a BS in Accounting, and had a relatively good career. My wife graduated from high school, nursing school, and college with honors. Our older son graduated summa cum laude and also honors for his graduate degree. Our younger son is a A-B student. We have never encouraged our sons to exceed in school.

In China, Japan, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Korea, there are still many poor people without a good education. I have also noticed that in Russia, many professionals such as doctors, lawyers, and college professors do not earn much more than the common laborer.

I have concluded that it has much to do with government (equality of treatment and corruption), opportunities for education and economic success, and luck (being at the right place at the right time). I was one of "those."

Aidan- Your screed about the ghetto is rendered null and void by Dr. Thomas Sowell's commentary in his book- "Race and Culture"..; Apparently you did not read my recitation of his points on the Chinese in the Far East living outside of China who despite DE FACTO DISCRIMINATION AS WELL AS DEJURE DISCRIMINATION are among the most successful citizens in countries like Malaysia and Sumatra.

The main reason, says Sowell, is culture.

There are, as I am sure you know, aidan, Blacks who left the ghetto and made it on their own. They accepted the mainstream idea of hard work in school and good work habits where they were employed.

They did not listen to the race merchants.

Do you need a list of successful African-Americans who started out in the ghetto?

Hint- Not many of them are fans of 50 Cent, listen to Farrakhan's hate speech or think all women are "hos"

If the Chinese who face DE FACTO AND DE JURE DISCRIMINATION CAN BECOME LEADING CITIZENS IN THE FAR EAST IN COUNTRIES WHICH PUT UP BARRIERS THAT THE BLACKS WILL NEVER KNOW, THEN IT IS CLEAR THAT THE DETERMINATION AND DRIVE DERIVED FROM A CULTURE WHICH PRIZES EDUCATION AND HARD WORK IS THE ANSWER.

No more garbage about the Ghetto and how we put them there.

Do you know anything about the living conditions of the Irish, Jews and Italians in New York from 1890 to 1940?

Look it up. The ghetto is much much richer, per person, than those people were.

Mortkat - I do know about the living conditions of the Irish, Jews, Italians, etc. in the ghettos of New York during the last part of the l9th century and early part of the 20th century. I also know that they were all voluntary immigrants who came to the US willingly, as have the Asians, Latinos and Eastern Europeans who have entered the US in subsequent waves of immigration. I think this is an important factor which has had a major impact on the assimilation of black people in the US as compared to that of other minority populations. You may not- and that's fine- I can't tell you what to think.

I'm confused as to why you need to tell me there are blacks who have made it out of the ghetto through hard work and resilience. That's what I've been saying all along. I also know that a lot of blacks dont listen to 50 cent , think women are whores, and subscribe to race baiters, but the fact is, I'm not the one who stereotyped them in that manner - you were- so it seems to me we're beginning to go around in circles here.

Mortkat - what's your purpose here? You're obviously very well versed and firm in your beliefs on this issue. But there is nothing you can say that will make me admit that blacks are innately inferior, just as there is nothing I can say to make you admit that they're not (at least to Asians). And to be honest I'm tired of talking about it. What's the point? Some people just want to be angry, and others don't - some look for the negative and others try to see the positive. But I will give you credit for thinking about it and presenting a solution - that's more than most people do. Hope you have a good night.

CI - I totally agree with you. Also, I'm glad things worked out so well for your family. You must be really proud of them. Hope you have a good night too.

It comes to a point where the belief that since people were forced to come here, so they have issues, must be abandoned. Everyone in America has the right to choose and the freedom to choose how they wish to live their lives. If a person feels that gaining an education isn't for them, then nothing can be done to change their minds. Those of us in the education field often spend time and energy to try and reach these people to convince them otherwise.
I will never believe that a race or culture is lazy or inferior. But, I will believe that communities foster a belief system. As the saying goes "it takes a village to raise a child." If the village is lazy, it may over ride the individuals belief or the families belief.
As for snoots one other comment about looting. For me, as an individual, I take a look at what the person had when they are walked through the streets. If they had clothes thats one thing. If they are walking around with tv's that's a whole different ball game.

It comes to a point where the belief that since people were forced to come here, so they have issues must be abandoned. Everyone in America has the right to choose and the freedom to choose how they wish to live their lives. If a person feels that gaining an education isn't for them, then nothing can be done to change their minds. Those of us in the education field often spend time and enrgy to try and reach these people to convince them otherwise.
I will never believe that a race or culture is lazy or inferior. But, I will believe that communities foster a belief system. As the saying goes "it takes a village to raise a child." If the village is lazy, it may over ride the individuals belief or the families belief.
As for snoots one other comment about looting. For me as an individual, I take a look at what the person had when they are walked through the streets. If they had clothes thats one thing. If they are walking around with tv's that's a whole different ball game.

sorry for the double post. Internet got stupid on me

Italians, Irish, Jews, and Poles could always change their names and mix in with the dominant white population to get around of the discrimination against their ethnic group. The film Gentlemen's Agreement illustrated the latent anti-Semitism in post-war Amrican business culture. You can't hide your skin color like you can your family name from the old country as an another film, Black Like Me showed.

btw: I got quite a laugh from seeing Tom Sowell held up as a reference for explaining the ecomomic difficulties due to "Blackness" in America. Excuse me for not taking serious the remarks of a black man who has made a career out of showing his anger at other blacks for God not making him a white man in a white society.

Don't you think it's racist to demand a certain political opinion from a man, just because he's black?

Since I dont demand anything from anyone, your remark makes no sense. Recognizing the self-hatred of one's skin color is obvious in Sowell's writings.

kuvasc's statement:

Recognizing the self-hatred of one's skin color is obvious in Sowell's writings.

___________________

You make this negative assumption about this man due to his conservative opinions. Your statement proves you require him (as a black) to have liberal opinions--or be criticised.

Everyone does have the right and freedom to choose, but some people have situations and circumstances that make a bigger variety of choices more easily accessible to them. That's a fact.

It does take a village to raise a child, but if the village doesn't care about or embrace certain children, they might not have the opportunity to be raised quite as comfortably as others. Which village do you think is being "lazy"? Because I think that's where we're differing here. I don't view the black community as a separate village. I think we're all part of one village- as a result, I have responsibilities to those children too.
All I'm saying is that people need to take care of their responsibilities. And just because others choose not to, I can't use that as an excuse not to fulfill mine.

No excuses, just explanations. And yes, getting over something and rising above is always more productive, always, I totally agree. But it's easy to tell someone to get over something when you have no idea what it feels like to be in their shoes.

Lash- that book sounds interesting. Thanks for posting about it.

I think Thomas Sowall is quite articulate.

Thomas Sowell's latest book: "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" is also an eye opener for a much different perspective on race and race relations than what you normally get.

kuvasz,
you made a point about saying immigrants could change their name to fit in with the dominant white population. I am second generation Italian-"American." When my parents married there was such hatered between Italians and Irish. My mother's parents didn't want her to marry that greasyWOP and my Father's parents didn't want him to marry that "Irish whore." There was more discrimination going on than you could possibly imagine. Being raised in the northeast in a coal mining community I saw first hand how far discrimination goes. Our towns are set up by ethnicity, and the neighborhoods are further broken down by religious preference. ie Irish catholics do not associate with Irish Protestants.
From what I see you are from Georgia. The south does not have that type of discrimination. In the south it is a black/white issue or a north/south issue. In the north there is no north/south issue. You will find some black/white issues but mostly it is an Irish/Italian/Polish/German/fill in what ever nationality you want issue. This was how the mine owners controled the people who worked for them. Changing your name did not change your ethnic features.
That was Pa history 100.5. We didn't even get to the 101 level yet.

I have always maintained that racial and gender discrimination is based on ignorance.