Re: The Portrayal of Blacks in Popular Media

I am very sorry, dyslexia, but the lowest scoring group is not the American Indians or Alaskan Native. Please check the chart again. The American Indians or Alaskan Natives score 982 total- 489-V and 493-M

African-Americans do indeed score lower---864 Total- 433-V and 431-M

Why, of course, CI, your point is well taken. Now, if you wish to prove that your point bears on lower test scores and, most importantly, how much it accounts for the differences, you must present evidence.

Here is something that may give you pause, however.

Source- Thomas Sowell- "Race and Culture" P. 172

quote:
"In the United States, blacks of above-average socio-economic status have not averaged as high IQ as whites of lower socio-economic status, and neither blacks, Mexican Americans nor American Indians with families with incomes of $50,000 and above scored as well in the quantative portion of the SAT as Asian Americans with incomes of $6 ,000 or less. THE ENVIRONMENT THAT MATTERS FOR THIS PURPOSE MAY BE CULTURAL RATHER THAN ECONOMIC"

end of quote.

Mortkat, If you require support for what a2k posters opine, why do you "buy" what Thomas Sowell says without it?

Are you kidding? Are you serious?

If you don't know that Thomas Sowell is a world renown author; a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute at Stanford University; an author of many books; a nationally syndicated newspaper columnist and a biweekly columnist in Forbes magazine.: A frequent contributor to the New York Times, the Wall Street Jouirnal, the Washington Post, Newsweek and Fortune and a writer whose work appears in many scholarly journals in the USA and other countries, France, Germany, Spain China, Indonesia, Sweden and Portugal( in translation, of course). then read up.

Can Thomas Sowell be wrong? Of course, but then it is your task or the task of whoever would like to try to rebut what he has said with reliable evidence. If that can't be done, his statement stands.

Now, CI, there may indeed be people who have similar or better credentials than Sowell on this venue. If there are, I don't know of them. Therefore, since I know of Sowell's credentials, I will stick with him.

I didn't think we were talking about "titles." I thought the issue was to have supporting evidence for statements made - irregardless of the author.

Mortkat - you make a lot of interesting points. You continually quote average SAT scores for blacks in an attempt, I believe, to reinforce your stance that they are less intelligent than any other racial group. The only thing the SAT claims to measure is the level of success a student is likely to achieve during his or her freshman year of college. If a person has not been successful in highschool, it stands to reason they will probably not be successful in college- I don't know about you, but I don't need test scores to tell me that. I totally agree with you - statistics show that blacks are less successful in US public schools. But I would ask, what underlying causes might there be that reinforce this sad reality? And I agree that there are behaviors the students could adopt that would increase their rate of academic success, but is there anything mainstream society and public education could do to increase their effectiveness in providing institutions of learning for these particular children? I think the answer is yes. So we can continue to point fingers at the kids and their parents and Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, etc. - or we can begin to provide relevant educational programs and implement teaching methods that address the learning needs of all students- not just the mainstream, middle-class majority.

I've taught for twenty years too. I've taught in Philadelphia and Camden, NJ, and in Durham and Chapel Hill in NC. You want to talk about the gap in SAT scores, and the rising rates of the scores of some racial groups over others- I think it's important to look at the gap in income between kids who have parents who can afford private tutors and repeated SAT prep courses in order to boost their scores, and the average income of the parents of those students who just sit the test cold because they don't have the $900.00 (yep - that's how much they cost, and that's the low end - some cost up to $l600.00) a pop to keep trying til they get it right. SAT prep has become big business-put quite simply, certain students are being taught how to take the test, while others are not.

Black kids are statistically much more likely to be labeled behaviorally or emotionally disabled, while white kids are labeled "learning disabled" and put on meds- many times for engaging in the same behaviors. Why? Because white parents who are able to afford a doctor's diagnosis and prescription are willing to go that route culturally, while it is not as common or acceptable in the black community, and I think it's because black parents, in general, are less willing to excuse their kids from responsibility for their behavior-"S/he doesn't need drugs - S/he needs to straighten up," - I've heard that said many times by parents in conferences, but to a man or woman, the people who expressed those types of sentiments were black- and I gotta say, I respect them for saying it and believing it- but those negative labels more often associated with black children perpetuate negative perceptions which perpetuate negative behavioral responses - it's a viscious cycle..

In my opinion - you're unduly harsh in your assessment of these students and their parents. And while I agree, they may need to change some things and have to want to help themselves, I also have to admit that society has not put everything in place to ensure their academic success the way it has for white, middle class students. It's a longstanding problem exacerbated by many factors, and it's much more complex than you make it out to be.

Yes, I see a lot of kids who don't believe there is anything in the system for them, and yes, maybe black students have disengaged and feel disenfranchised and have given up in greater numbers than students from other racial groups. But I believe it's a two way street - I think a large portion of society and educators and schools have given up on them, after failing them in a lot of ways for a lot of years. Why are we willing to pass kids year after year if their reading, written language and math skills won't support their success in higher level and content courses? Could it be because we just don't care, or don't believe they can do it, or maybe we just want them to get the hell out of our class and into someone else's whether they're ready or not?

* And I don't think the majority of these kids you speak of are "savagely" against mainstream society. I think they're just tired of banging on the door till their knuckles are bloody, trying to make it in. I think they've decided to move on to other things or places where they feel they might be given a fair shake.
And your assessment of black teachers is harsh and stereotypical too. Sad to say, a lot of teachers can't spell - and it aint broken down by race - neither is level of preparation - or do you have statistics to support those claims? I'd like to see them, because that hasn't been my experience (admittedly only anecdotal) so maybe you're just looking for what you want to find where you want to find it.

aidan,
I see in the begining of your post you said that you taught in Philly. I too taught there, albiet for a short period of time. One of the first things that struck me as bizarre was when a student who handed in a blank quiz paper (and received a "0" on it) said to me that I HAD to give her a "50." I asked her why and I was told by not only her but by the teaching staff and the administration, that a 50 was the minimum grade that any student could receive. As long as school districts adopt a grading system like this, students will not put forth 100 percent positive effort.
I truely see both sides of the coin. I have had students while I was there that were stellar. An absolute pleasure to teach and to have in my classroom. But, I willnot make generalizations about it being a race issue. As you pointed out before, there is the economic factor. There is also the factor of parental involvement.
It seems that this thread has taken on a completely different life. But, at this stage of the game I say just see what it evolves into.

The Africans that were brought in as slaves were robbed of their culture so there is nothing in the way of role model for them for 300 or 400 years. When you are released from such a long period of numbing experience not including suffering, the mental situation surely suffers as you are told to do such and such. All the initiative has been killed. You will note those Africans or blacks from Jamaica and Cuba are much more alert. Colin Powell is a good example as he is not of American slave ancestry. The highest paying TV personality is Oprah Winfrey even Phil Donahue could shake her off.

My personal view is that the social sciences such as psychology, sociology, economics, etc. are soft sciences. Any discipline resorting to statistics as their primary tool of analysis cannot be of the first order of science as statistics doesn't explain the cause and effect. Statistics only show a link but does not show a cause.

talk 72000, Good point: some people insiste only looking at statistics that doesn't explain anything about cause and effect. Some do not care to understand the ignorance of such emphasis on numbers.

About 30 or 40 years ago there was a best-seller entitled How to Lie With Statistics. All I remember is the title. If I wasn't too lazy to Google it, I could probably come up with the name of the author.

And, of course, as well all know, statistics are the leading cause of cancer . . .

No, no, failure to worry is...

I'd just like to say that reading this post was pure pleasure - quiet comments made with care and deliberation, without the rancor that so often seems to pervade such controversial topics.

Refreshing.

aiden, Good post - explains much more than looking at statistics.

Yes thank you Aiden. If more would take time to discuss our different perceptions instead of excoriating people who think differently, we would probably come closer to full understanding much sooner than will otherwise occur. I have done a bit of volunteer tutoring and much that you said struck very familiar chords.

Thanks again, Aiden - last time, you made a heartfelt effort to directly address the issues I raised in the launch post; this time, you singlehandedly salvaged the civility that Mortkat has all but destroyed by trying to turn this thread into a rant about racial inferiority.

I have been out of town at a very restful retreat for the last 2 1/2 days, but now I'm back. I will post here again when I gather my thoughts and will enough to do it in a way that will respect my original motive for this thread.

Thanks for your kind words, JustWonders, CI, Foxfyre and Snood - I hope you all had a restful and fulfilling Thanksgiving week-end. Anyone watch any good movies? Just kiddin'.... :wink:

But in all seriousness - maybe if we all put our heads, hearts, energies and good intentions together we could change the world for these kids. Part of me still believes it could happen.

aidan, I agree; we must never give up hope. We must continue to support those that are doing the hard work to help those that are unable to help themselves.

Well, Aidan, you make some very good points. Let's take them one by one, shall we?

I have heard the argument about relevant educational programs again and again and again.

Sometimes, they work. They don't work very often because the culture of the inner city does not accept most of the progams.

Would you address these points please?

l. The amount of money that has gone to the inner city since LBJ instituted the great society has been in the billions. The money was used to target those students who came from homes which fell under the POVERTY LEVEL. In a minutely detailed study of educational inequality published in 1995, Scott Miller, a scholar now affiliated with the College Board wrote that "Some STRATEGIES for investing resources in disadvantaged children are substantially more productive than others, this is little evidence that any existing strategy can close more than a fraction of the overall achievement gap separating children with low socioeconomic status from their wealthier largely suburban counterparts". The title of Miller's study is "An American Imperative"


The idea that school, by itself, cannot cure poverty is hardly astonishing but it is amazing how much of our political discource is implicitly predicated on the notion that it can.

THE TRUTH IS THAT EDUCATIONAL INEQUALITY IS ROOTED IN ACADEMIC PROBLEMS AND SOCIAL PATHOLOGIES TOO DEEP TO BE OVERCOME BY SCHOOL ALONE.

By Mortkat's assessment, we should give up on all those that have continually performed poorly in schhol (blacks and Hispanics), because there is no hope. What a racial bigot.