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New Orleans: The Worst is Not Over : (

 
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:14 pm
dyslexia wrote:
god bless america? one more of those pleadings for god to bless america and we might as well write off california for the impending earth-quake sliding the entire state into the pacific.


That's what you think! All that Silicone will keep us afloat for a
long time....
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:27 pm
dyslexia wrote:
All this whinning! what the **** is wrong with you people? you act like a bunch of pussies clamoring for a nanny government. What should be happening is for the US Govt to be air-dropping m-16s with ammo for every man/woman/child in NO. Give them the means to protect themelves from themselves, pull themselves up by their own boot straps. This is an excellent example of just what's wrong with america, lack of self-reliance! I say we secure the oil production facilities (make america strong) and stop throwing good money at every god-damn problem as if money is going to make things better. Next thing you know France and Germany will be over here showing us how to become just like old europe, is that what we want? Hell NO! Take it on the chin brothers and sisters, this is just nature and we can always beat nature just like we always have. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan "Tear down this FEMA and let my people go free."
I't to late Dys I just read france is going to give us some Oil to help us out and Citgo gas stations have the cheapest gas(2.50 gal) courtasy of Hugo Chavez.He Said He wanted poor Americans to have cheap gas.'SAVE YOURSELF' thats my motto.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:34 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
god bless america? one more of those pleadings for god to bless america and we might as well write off california for the impending earth-quake sliding the entire state into the pacific.


That's what you think! All that Silicone will keep us afloat for a
long time....



Yes, but what about those of us who don't have breast implants? Laughing
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:36 pm
You don't live in California Montana Wink
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:51 pm
True, lol!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:54 pm
God, now i really want to see California slide into the ocean . . . i am absolutely disgusted by fake boobies . . .
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:55 pm
Laughing
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:56 pm
Hey,Hey,Hey......I gotta live here guys.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:57 pm
Ooops, sorry amigo Embarrassed
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 06:59 pm
ooohh, thats O.K. Very Happy
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 07:02 pm
Setanta wrote:
God, now i really want to see California slide into the ocean . . . i am absolutely disgusted by fake boobies . . .


Most girls here remind me of the Eloi's - all blonde clones with implants.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 07:59 pm
<set. it's bizarro world>
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Reyn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 08:16 pm
I have a New Orleans question for some knowledgeable person here:

Parts of this city are below sea level, is this correct?

I understand the various levies failed to hold back the water. Do you think it would have made a difference if this area had had a proper dyking system like in The Netherlands?

I remember vaguely the big flood in 1954 there. I was born in Holland, but I was 3 at the time. Since that big flood, the Dutch have made huge improvements in flood control. Very expensive, of course, but it was all worth it.
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 08:19 pm
Reyn--

I'm not an expert on the engineering of the dikes and levees along the Mississippi, but my impression is that the NO defenses weren't constructed to a master plan, but grew from a bit of tinkering here and a bit of tinkering there.

I believe that more comprehensive systems have been suggested, but money just wasn't made available.
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Reyn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 08:44 pm
Well, it seems to me that rebuilding will take place over the months and years down the road. Can "they" afford not to have some sort of decent flood control in the future? It's going to cost a fortune now to bring the city back from total ruin.

It seems short-sighted not to do otherwise.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 08:52 pm
Reyn wrote:
I have a New Orleans question for some knowledgeable person here:

Parts of this city are below sea level, is this correct?

I understand the various levies failed to hold back the water. Do you think it would have made a difference if this area had had a proper dyking system like in The Netherlands?

I remember vaguely the big flood in 1954 there. I was born in Holland, but I was 3 at the time. Since that big flood, the Dutch have made huge improvements in flood control. Very expensive, of course, but it was all worth it.


Parts of the city are as much as ten feet below sea level. Those portions which are above sea level, however, are subject to flooding because of the levees which are meant to prevent flooding in times of high water in the river, the canals which lead through the city from Lake Pontchartrain to the river, and the levees at the lake. When d'Iberville (who came from Canada, by the way) established his settlement on Lake Pontchartrain in 1699, the water level was about the same as today, which meant that the site was acceptable, as heavy rains from storms did not make that big an impression on the lake, and water could drain off into nearby bayous. When his brother de Bienville establihed New Orleans (1718), it was well above the level of the river.

However, as the modern city has spread out, the lake has been dyked with levees, as has the river, to prevent flooding of any kind. The original settlements could afford to ignore flooding in nearby low lying areas, but that is not true of a city of a half million people spread out over an area more than twenty times the size of d'Iberville's and de Bienville's settelments combined. The Mississippi is not in its "preferred" bed, it was diverted several hundred years ago from a wide, deeper bed which is now the Atchafalaya River and Bayou, by a massive deadfall of trees, perhaps caused by an earlier hurricane. Over time, it likely would have returned to its old bed, but with the city established and growing, the Corps of Engineers had worked to keep the river in its current bed. Northwest of Baton Rouge is the Old River Control Structure which prevents the river from returning into the Atchafalaya bed. So the river at the best of times is not much below flood stage. The additional problem of extensive levees along the course of the river to the north, and the rivers which feed it mean that a far greater volume of water is subject to flow in that bed than was the case in the early 18th century. It actually doesn't take much for the river to rise to a point at which it would have flooded the ground as it lay in the days of d'Iberville--hence, the extensive levees.

Finally, two things are notable. The first is that the evidence from the collapse of the levee at the 17th Street canal is that the levees were built in a very shoddy, substandard manner, with inappropriate fill. This is evidence of the venality of greed, and of improper or no official supervision of the construction. The other notable thing is, the preservation of the river in its current bed has more to do with the oil refineries and their chemical plant consorts on the river corridor between New Orleans and Baton Rouge than it does any concern with the fortunes of either city. Were the cities not there, it is still likely that the Old River Control Structure would have been built (1963) to preserve that corridor. One can't automatically assume that all of the expense and engineering was in aid of human convenience, apart from the employees and share holders of the corporations which run the refineries and chemical plants.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 08:58 pm
Facinating!
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Reyn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 09:38 pm
Set, thanks for the detailed explanation.

If you were to look into your crystal ball, how do you feel future flood control construction will come about?

For example, here in the Lower Fraser Valley of BC, years ago were subject to frequent flooding until a series of canals were built to handle high water. Also, a system of earth dykes were constructed in key areas. On top of that, the Fraser River is dredged in some parts, as debris is constantly coming from upstream and deposited in troubled areas.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 09:47 pm
The Mississippi is an absolute Hell of snags and detritus. When Samuel Clemens describes a house floating downstream in Huckleberry Finn, he is not indulging in exaggeration. The river requires regular dredging and the clearing of snags, which is truly a full-time job, and very important to the massive commerce of the river barges.

Very likely, the existing stuctures will be re-built and re-inforced. I mentioned earlier that this system would be in place even were the cities not there, because of the refineries and chemical plants which depend upon their production. That is because tankers can sail right up the the seaward shore by Lake Pontchartrain and pump out their holds into "tank farms" which then fill river barges. These proceed across Lake Pontchartrain, through the canals that run through the city (chiefly, the 17th Street canal) and into the river. From there, they go into the river corridor between Baton Rouge and New Orleans to unload. Even if the cities weren't there, the refineries and chemical plants likely would be, as the Mississippi/Missouri/Ohio system represents a major commercial transportation network in the interior of the United States. A river barge leaving New Orleans can get to Cincinatti, Pittsburg, St. Louis, Chicago, Minneapolis, Kansas City--almost anywhere important between the Rockies and the Applachian Mountains. If Baton Rouge and New Orleans had not existed, it would have been necessary to invent them.

I suspect that with some modification, the situation will return to the status quo ante.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 09:54 pm
This map will give an idea of the commerical significance of the Mississippi/Missouri/Ohio system:


http://www.davidestrada.com/river/images/rivermap.gif
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