9
   

Tension convention

 
 
sozobe
 
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 11:03 am
This is a new one for me, haven't resolved what to do yet. Advice welcomed.

We are new homeowners, though we've rented real houses in residential areas before, so are familiar with most of the trappings. We've never been particularly close to our neighbors, though we are usually the ones making overtures. Our next-door neighbors in Naperville, who had been friendly but cool, actually specifically thanked us right before we moved for being such great neighbors and so respectful of their privacy. There was an empty lot (grass) between our house and neighbors on the other side, who we were also on wave-and-smile (and occasional chat) terms with. The exception was our across-the-street neighbors, who we gradually became very close to after a couple of years of wave-and-smile, and that with kids who are only months apart.

So, we moved here, and the neighbors to the South were SUPER friendly. My default L.A. reaction was that they had a really great religion they wanted to share with us, or something. But I had already realized that people are more friendly in Columbus, and just went with it. We gave them thank-you cards for the nice things they did, got goodies for them at Trader Joe's when we went (kind of far, they mentioned that they liked some things but never got out there, etc.)

Neighbors are late 50's/ early 60's, childless. They were VERY close to the former homeowners (FH), who had lived here for 14 years before selling. The FH's kids, who were born here, were over there often, and the momFH and wifeNeighbor were very good friends. They'd get together and chat, go shopping, etc. Their dogs were even friends.

So, wifeNeighbor (who I learned all of the above from) would ask me if I wanted to go shopping and such. I plain didn't, for a few reasons. For one thing, I didn't have much time. It's not something that works well with sozlet, and hubby has been working insane hours since he started the professor gig. The rare times that he is home and available to watch sozlet, there are many, many things I would rather do than shop with someone who has very different tastes than mine (Her -- Talbot's and Ethan Allen. Me -- weird vintage shops) and who is extremely difficult to lipread. (She has a poker face/ deadpan delivery, and thinks about everything thoroughly before speaking. Spontaneous, think-it-speak-it people are much easier for me.)

This came up maybe three times, I was always nice about it and not completely opposed, but it was just so not on my list of priorities. I'd go out and chat when I saw her, bring her flowers occasionally, etc., plenty friendly.

(This is long, but I'm trying to get in anything that might be pertinent since I haven't quite figured it out.)

Anyway, once the winter hit, we saw each other much less. I was dealing with sozlet's neverending sicknesses and generally was in survival mode.

Come spring, there was definitely a... tone. I wasn't sure what to make of it, wasn't sure how to react to it, wasn't sure it wasn't just my imagination. We remained friendly when we saw each other.

Whatever that thing was, it seemed to gradually increase.

Other possibly pertinent info:

I have been working hard on my yard, and have been pretty proud of the results. The front yard is looking really good. The back yard, since my discovery of the mother of all poison ivy vines, has definitely suffered. It's pretty wild/ woodsy anyway, so not an enormous change, but it definitely needs work.

Throughout, I've been getting a lot of unsolicited gardening advice from wifeNeighbor. That is fine, I need info. A lot of what she has been telling me has been contradicted by what I know or what I find out, though. Like, she told me to pull up "grass" that was actually a very pretty (when it bloomed) bulb. She told me to get rid of suckers on the lilac when in fact years of doing so is why the thing is almost dead. A big one is that she keeps telling me to water more often, when daily waterings by the FHs has given most of my plants shallow/ bad root systems, and I'm purposely moving towards drenching waterings more rarely, which seems to be working. Another common exchange, "Pull that up, it's a weed." "What kind of weed?" (I like native wildflowers.) "It doesn't matter, it's a weed."

Her yard is made up of grass and then vast swaths of mulch with little round shrubs here and there.

SO: finally, where things are now.

We recently went to Texas for about a week. It's been dry around here, and I asked my OTHER neighbors (to the North) to water my yard if need be. I also mentioned in passing to my South neighbors that we'd be gone, just so they knew -- didn't ask them for anything. When I came back, everything looked good... but then I looked more closely. Someone had gone to town on my front yard. The vinca was cut back, WAY back. (Way more than I wanted it to be -- I'd already cut it back as far as I wanted it to go.) Mulch had been put down some places. Weedkiller had been sprayed on trumpet vine shoots.

I cautiously asked North neighbor, uh, what's up with this, as it didn't seem like her at all. She said that everytime she came over to water, South neighbors were doing it/ had already done it. :-? She confirmed that she (North neighbor) hadn't done a thing. So it was all South neighbor.

Stew stew stew.

I was furious. I understood that there was a helpful impulse there that was nice, but there was also a heavy undercurrent of judgement/ "this is how it SHOULD be done, and if you can't do it the way I tell you to I'll do it myself."

I swallowed that though and helped sozlet make a thank-you card, specifically for the mulch (that was most obvious, the rest became more obvious later). I was too mad to go with her to give it to her, wanted to get over it first rather than starting something.

Well, I'm not over it. I had written her a friendly email about recent improvements in her yard, and she wrote back with "Thanks." Period. She's avoiding me. My family was cleaning out the back porch and saw them, went over to say hi, she disappeared.

If this was some random person I didn't have to live next to for the next 20 years or whatever, I would so be in her face. (E.G. sees the glint in my eye and keeps telling me "don't do it..." He's seen me go medieval on people's asses before...) If it was somebody I knew well, a family member or long-time friend, I'd be wanting to have a talk. But she's this weird in-between area, as I really don't know her hardly at all, and from what I do know of her, frankly don't want to. Friendly, yes, cordial, yes, FRIENDS... no.

But maybe I can have that talk anyway.

I don't like the rush of adrenaline I get when I see her, want to solve this without the medievalness.

Thoughts?
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 11:04 am
Oh my god that was long!!

Sorry.

Just don't know which parts are the pertinent ones, or if they all are.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 11:18 am
Being friendly is one thing. Being intrusive is another.

I would thank her for helping out but point out the fact that she did some major things that you did not want done. If she really cares, she will understand. If she doesn't understand and instead gets defensive, I wouldn't want her as a close friend anyway.

My entire childhood we lived next door to neighbors who we never said more than 10 words to at a time. They didn't want anything to do with us from the day we moved in and eventually we realized there is no benefit to having a relationship with people you don't really care for anyway. We lived in silence and perfect harmony the rest of our time there.

The way I figure there is more important things to worry about than whether or not you are going to upset your neighbor. I say let her have it... privacy is golden and she should know the boundaries.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 12:30 pm
Thinking, thinking. This is really tough. I've always had difficulty figuring out neighbor relationships. What's intrusive vs. what's aloof, etc...

But holy crap, going to town on your yard when you hadn't asked her to? Then avoiding you? And oh, I know just what you mean about the her showing herself to be judgmental.

It's entirely possible that she feels some shame for doing that. It seems a bit more likely, though, that because of the prior relationship she feels some sense of ownership towards your house. No, that's not the right word. Have you seen that show on TLC called Trading Up or something like that? The one where homeowners come back and visit previous homes that the new owners have totally remodeled? People seem to continue to feel a sense of ownership or attachment to previous homes. It could be that she feels the home still rightfully belongs to FH, so in her mind it's probably all about what FH would want, what they would do, what they would think if they saw the yard now, etc...

Still no advice yet, of course. The neighbor thing of course makes it tricky.
0 Replies
 
Heeven
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 12:35 pm
Invite her to take a trip with you to a nearby nursery (provided there is one close-by). This will mean she cannot slip into her house to avoid you, or stalk off in a huff. When you get to the nursery, make note, as each of you make a purchase, on how your tastes differ and that there is nothing wrong with that. Slip it into the conversation that you appreciate the watering of your garden especially since you had asked someone else to do it for you. Tell her you were surprised at the other work she apparently did in your garden and explain that it never crossed your mind to do something in HER garden without her permission. Don't tell her off for doing it, just tell her you wouldn't have taken that liberty if SHE had gone away and left her garden unattended. (That will give her pause that she would not like you coming over to her garden and hacking away at her plants). You should enthuse about how you have always wanted a garden of your own and how excited and thrilled you are to discover things by trial and error. Compliment her garden and how it is wonderful that people can have different tastes and styles and still share opinions.

She has to learn that she cannot expect you to replace the friendship she used to have with her former neighbor and right now she is feeling rebuffed and sulky. As nicely as possible you need to get it across to her that you cannot replace her old friendship but are willing to be a pleasant neighbor.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 12:36 pm
I have to calm down on your behalf before I can begin to answer coherently. I would be out of my mind livid.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 01:14 pm
I say call the police and have her arrested for trespassing.

Honestly, I can't think of thing to say other than I give you lots of credit for not reaming into her. I am normally a patient type of person, but I don't know if I could hold back.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 02:13 pm
Yeah, the problem for me (you are probably better at this) is that I always want to be nice and don't want to ruffle the feathers of the people who live near me. But in a case like this, she's shown enormous disrespect for you and your family and seems to be unwilling to relinquish control, control that wasn't hers to begin with, over your yard to your home's rightful owners.

Having said that, I'm really coming up short on advice. It would seem, though, that things are already frosty, so why not go ahead and tell her how you feel about it? And while you're at it, call her on her avoidance. How much more awkward and uncomfortable can it get?
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 03:24 pm
Wow - I don't think your post was too long at all - I thought it was really interesting.

Good news is, vinca grows back fast (I'm sure you knew that)

While of course you don't want to get medieval on her ass - I don't think you're going to be able to avoid some huffy hurt feelings on her part. This person is so clueless as to not know enough that she was commiting act of random gardening. She's always going to think she was "helping out that nice young couple" no matter how diplomately you handle it, she'll surely talk to other neihbors about "those people I was just trying to help" Believe me, I've been there.
More good news, the other neighbors are well aware of how much she likes to "help"

Really, her reaction to your need for privacy is not your problem.

My neighbors to the west, 1w and 2w, get along fine, nick borrows tools from my husband, and when Eureka (isn't that a great name) had a fire that destroyed our house, we offered to put her up, which she declined (but expressed appreciation at our neighborliness).

Now, has far as my neighbours on the East 1e, 2e and 3e.
Neighbor 1e has only lived there a year or so, the former 1e, Andrew was the best neighbor, we were close, but chose to keep our friendship on an "talking over the fence friendship" He sold and moved to Chicago and we miss him.
the present 1E is nice, but at first my husband and I were all like "but she's not ANDREW"
The former neighbor 2e was a fu*king nightmare, an older rich woman owned the house, and rented it out. Over the years 2 different people lived there, and they were both insane. Dogs barking, loud music, planting a garden made out of coffee cans, nailing a TV to the roof as artistic expression. (she wolf, I'll bet your laughing, I just know you know the type I'm talking about) and although it isn't beverly hills, it's not really a nail a TV to the roof type of neighborhood.

Anyway, the crazy guy, Pete for some reason was making it his lifes mission to be my friend.
It's like this - OK pete, i call the police on a regular basis at 4am to remind you to turn off your music, you can't seem to "get it" I just didn't mean that particular night.
Pete would hide easter eggs on my lawn, try to bring me some disgusing xmas stuff to eat- (which i refused because I have a sick mind and figured he spit in it), and christmas ornaments, 4th of july sparklers and so forth.
Finally, I had to call the rich old owner (because of the continuing noise) threatening to take her to court. This finally stopped Pete's advances.
Eventually he moved, new people moved in, remodeled, had a baby and they are definitly my favorite people on the block.
OK - The point (finally) of this is.....my neighbor 3E, who I have never had a conversation with, ever, doesn't not even respond when I say hello. It's so weird, I'll be sitting in 2E's front yard, them and the toddler, having a grand time, he comes out, says hello to them, turns away from me.

Apparantly he will NEVER get over the horrible way I treated Pete, the stupid, drunk, dumbass of the street, who didn't even own, hurrumph.

Do I care? Not really. I would slash my throat if I lived somewhere where everybody just walked in and out of each others houses with nary a knock.

You're neighbor will be hurt to some degree, but it's your home, your yard and your life.
BTW - I hate going shopping with anyone. "OH, look at this blouse!"
yeah, look at it, it's a blouse. "well, let's look at it for the next 5 minutes!"
uh, no.

Can't you just keep your back turned to her yard? Or does she come on over?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 04:18 pm
I am still waiting for steam to stop fizzing out my ears. Perhaps your problem resonates too closely for my own boundary system.

Whether or not it would be wise, I would have to make my boundaries immediately clear at this point, whether or not she would be hurt. She had no right to cut your plant material. She had no right to put in mulch. Perhaps you don't want mulch. My landscape contractor and nursery owner business partner has stopped using it in her own yard by choice and that might have been your choice. Watering was probably meant to be helpful also, but if she watered in a surface fashion every day instead of deep watering from time to time as you do, it is directly in contrast to your watering wishes, besides being invasive. You don't want to be all nicey pie and have this continue.

It is too bad she doesn't like your handling of your yard, that is not her business, unless you let your front yard go to complete hell and property values deteriorate in a handbasket, in which case she would have a gripe, but still not a right to "fix" it.

I am thinking I would write a clearcut letter of "cease and desist" in a courteous but straightforward way. The woman seems to be missing a monitor for what is appropriate action and the piece of paper may help her remember. Her apparent resentment and hiding and then passive aggressive fixing are all at least a bit peculiar. I wouldn't try to make an enemy, but I think your boundaries need to be absolutely clarified.

Still mulling....



Aaack, and using weedkiller in someone else's yard -

she is missing a monitor....
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 04:36 pm
Oh yeah, the weed killer. I once had a neighbor that sprayed weed killer on my mint because he thought it was a weed. We had been making mint tea with up until that point and were PISSED that he did that. It grew against a fence and he swore he only sprayed it on his side, but nearly half of it on my side was dead and we wouldn't touch the other half.

The idea of spraying chemicals on someone else's plants... ugh.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 04:39 pm
Jesus wept!!!

All I can think of is a polite but clear discussion - using the dear old sandwiching - you know - it is lovely that you worked so hard to help, wow you worked hard - but you need to understand that we have different ideas about what we want for our garden than you do, so thank you very much but please do not ever do that again, the mulch was great.

Optional whether you mention the "tone" and avoidance.

In a note with a little gift if you do not want to have the face to face?


I would want to tear her a new nether orifice, too - but, as you say, you have to live next door for a long time, and neighbour stuff, when it goes bad, is horrendously stressful.


I would ignore the tone, btw - and continue to smile and be polite, if you choose not to address it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 04:42 pm
I know some boys from over to the Hilltop who might could pay her a visit . . .
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 05:16 pm
I liked dlowan's take. I was thinking of the note being sandwich-y, but didn't have the words, watchit, more clouds of steam. Note and wee gift, there y'go.

And then the HillTop boys can come and play a tune...
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 05:17 pm
Grrr, even if your ideas are the same, she is way out of bounds, grrrr.... but yeah, that is useful for the note. (For me it would have to be a note, just so I carried through in the face of nice passive aggression.)
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 05:25 pm
Yeah - I am only thinking of such niceness cos of the neighbour thing.

I hope she is DEEPLY ashamed of herself.

That said, she is prolly grieving for the lost neighbours, and this is the angry phase.

No goddamned excuse, though.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.....
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 05:34 pm
I wouldn't have sent a thank you note. With her odd boundary ideas, that leaves a scary opening - and she's probably damn proud of what she's done - and told the previous homeowner's that she saved their yard from your advances.

But the note is out there.

So - you've got to let her know that you had made arrangements with someone else to do what you wanted to have done, and that what she did was inappropriate.

Neighbours for 20 years? Maybe. You don't know how your life or hers will work out. In any case, I have neighbours who've lived on the same block for 40 years who've never spoken to each other. Neighbours aren't necessarily acquaintances or friends. They are neighbours.

You've got to re-establish the neighbour boundary. In-person would be best - so she can see your expression - but a note might have to do if you're still steaming.

- surprised to come home and discover so many unanticipated changes in your yard.

- had made arrangements for the yard to be cared for - and specific things to be done.

- due to interference some landscaping plans were disturbed. There will be some costs associated with that.

- hopefully your yard will recover from her actions. There may be some costs associated with that.

- appreciate her interest in your garden, but cease and desist.

hmmm, maybe a letter is best.

Registered.


<or maybe just points 1, 2 and 5>



and the Hilltop boys - first.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 06:03 pm
I haven't had a totally miserably acting neighbor for quite a while, thank goodness. We nearly moved because of a teenaged boy who lived with two much older neighbors and played electric guitar with no melody/rhythm/anything but screech at full volume for hours a mere eight feet from our window. Police calling, whatever, we did it. It was scary since he was somewhat violent to the aunt. Eventually he moved on, but sheesh.

Here in north CA I've had two neighbors, in sequence, in the house next door (I am on a corner) and there are 35 feet or so of yard between, 32 of those mine. The first occupant was a really sweet older lady who gave me her homemade jam and asked me in sometimes to talk, would I like a bourbon on ice? and admired my efforts for the yard between. She died suddenly and I was quite sad. Now there is a nice couple in their thirties, who pretty much mind their own business and I, mine, but we wave all the time. My back yard is periodically quite ratty until I get a crew in to pull weeds. Even when ratty the yard has good bones, design wise - ya' just gotta squint...

Ahhh, I forgot the distribution center across the street... people pulling up in logging trucks and cars and staying, oh, six minutes... lots of wrecker cars parked a long time. I suspected meth distribution, but, I dunno. I mentioned this to the owner who followed up with it. Was relieved when they went back to renting to visiting hospital workers.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 09:21 pm
Wow! Spent an absolutely fabulous day at the State Fair and nothing is bothering me at the moment ("Neighbor? Oh, right"), thanks so much for all of your responses, much appreciated.

Part of this is that I just wanted to see what other people thought about the offense -- I was livid, E.G. was like, I know, but she was trying to help. The thank-you note was his instigation -- he suggested it to sozlet, she did it (she likes making thank-you notes, it's something she does often), she wanted me to write things for it, I couldn't in that moment think of a way to say, "No, I will not write anything for our passive-aggressive neighbor, have Papa do it if he thinks its such a great idea," so I just went ahead.

Anyway, it is very calming for me just to see that other people would be bothered by it, too.

A big part of my fuming is that the front yard looks so GOOD, I've put so much work into it -- it was already more perfect than I was entirely comfortable with. I have been focusing on replicating what the FH's very expensive gardeners did to teach myself how everything works before taking things in a more me direction. (That's another thing that's galling, all the FH's actually DID is pay the gardeners' enormous bill and water too often, it's not like it was their own hard work.)

What E.G. pointed out is that it's likely not actually about the front yard -- it's about the back yard, which yes, I feel bad about, but the poison ivy everywhere makes it a major project, more major than I've had time for.

ANYWAY.

I'm definitely for talking to her. Still trying to figure out exactly how to do it. Depends on a lot of things, what message I want to give and how I want to give it, etc. My inclination is face-to-face, but I know I get scary in those situations. I like it and don't feel scary -- I like confronting the problem and getting into solving it -- but have been told often after the fact (friends, employees) that I'm terrifying in that mode.

I don't know if terrifying her is what I want to do. (It's tempting, though.)

Right now I'm thinking email, then follow it up with something. A gift feels too false, I don't think I could pull that off. Sandwiching, though, sandwiching I know. :-) (Deb, Soz and ehBeth, the Sandwich Sisters...)

She sent me an email that I didn't directly respond to -- the "lots of progress on your yard!"/ "thanks" exchange was parallel to that. It said something about unsolicited advice, and the suggestion to spray weedkiller on the trumpet vines rather than keep pulling them up. (I didn't know at the time she'd already done it.) I think I may take that as my opening; something about how I appreciate gardening advice a great deal, and even unsolicited advice is OK, but unsolicited *action* on my yard is another category entirely.

All sandwichy of course.

FreeDuck, funny about "Moving Up", that was one of the first things I thought of too -- there was an episode that I watched a couple of nights ago where a teenaged boy had moved out, then came back and hated everything about the changes the new family had made. The 9-year-old boy in the new family said something like, "He just has to let go and realize it's not his house anymore, it's OUR house." Smart kid.

Anyway, you guys have helped tremendously, thanks so much. I'll let you know what I end up doing (and probably will ask some more questions on the way to doing it).
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Aug, 2005 09:47 pm
just my first thought..
you are absolutly right about the " if you cant do it right, then I will do it"
These sound like the type of people who would get upest if you left something in your front yard they didnt like, and would complain that it " effects the neighborhood" Rolling Eyes
Though , in her frenzy , she may have TRULY thought she was doing you a favor, while she was calm ( by her own behaviors) she realized she crossed a line. She shies away from you wich somoene with perfect innocent intentions would NOT have to do. She doesnt want to chat with you.. ehh.. blah blah..
I would approach her off guard one day. Just walk over to her house and knock on her door . See if you can engage her in a conversation about what she did in your yard? She may be wanting to apologize for crossing the line and the guilt is uncomfortable so she shrinks away from you?
Then again, she may still be on her high horse and getting upset that you are not " keeping up her work"in your yard.
I dont have any advice other then that. Go bang on her door and SPRAY HER with Weed-B-Gone.. Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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