Tension convention

Passive agressive people are the most difficult type of people to dealwith, for me at least.

I'm still thinking no matter what tactic you take, there will either be hurt feelings (but how deep is a passive agressive's hurt. I'm convinced they know on some level how manipulative they are, knowing they can get aware with stuff because they can always fall back on "Oh, I'm so hurt"

Sending her a note or having the conversation to the effect of "that was very nice of you, BUT..." will either result in her only hearing the 'that was nice of you' part, and/or her thinking, 'she's so ungrateful with that BUT....'

Some time has passed, so if you go over there now, she'll have the excuse to say "well, why didn't you say something THEN?" But, if you had addressed it then, you still would be seen as ungrateful.
You just can't win with a P.A.
Osso's correct, not having any more of a 'hand wave while going to the car' relationship with a neighbor is fine. If your neighbour views your right to have your yard left alone as reason for a stressful relationship, let the stress be on her part, not yours.
I used to lie in bed at night stewing over all the people who had irked me that day or week. Then, I realized they were sleeping and dreaming of angels. I was the one awake. Let her be awake, not you.

I'm thinking if this continues, eventually she'll be giving you parenting advice, decorating, and on and on.

Did I say that? I like handwaving going to the car routines....
but I do feel she needs clear boundaries made.

I thought you did (oops)

Maybe it's just the voices in my head.

Completely agreed about boundaries.

Still cogitating. Email doesn't feel quite right. I'm going more towards face-to-face and trying my damndest not to be too terrifying.

Or maybe scary isn't all bad. She reminds me a lot of my mother-in-law, who I've had it out with a couple of times -- in that case, scary worked. (We're very different people but have a good relationship overall.)

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet -- but my first thought after finishing your initial post was, "NeighborWife may be trying to be friendly, may be receiving increasing coolness from Soz without a clear explanation why, may be concluding that she isn't friendly enough and ought to be friendlier, thus causing what the physicist calls a resonance catastrophe." (Paul Watzlawick of UC Palo Alto has an interesting book on such phenomena. It is called The Pursuit of Unhappiness and it's actually quite amusing if the persons in these kinds of situations are everybody but yourself.) I'm not sure yet how this kind of situation could be resolved, but would you say this is a thought worth pursuing?

Another thought that comes to my mind: I think you mentioned a while ago that neighbors of yours were feeding the Sozlet dinner when she visited without checking with you first. You reported a weaker, but similar reaction on your part. (They meant to be friendly, but made you feel uncomfortable.) Just to give me some perspective, are those the same neighbors?

After reading the rest of the thread, I have no bursts of genius to offer. But I strongly second what you said in the above quote. Based on a conflict I was once in, one involving misdirected friendliness, boundaries, and a personality quite similar to yours, e-mails a) tend to make such misunderstandings worse, and b) tend to make a conflict fester over days, when it could be argued out in an hour over a cup of tea. This can cause serious frustration on both sides. So if your problems with lip-reading and aggression control are at all managable, use a friendly but plainspoken one-on-one. If it helps, pretent you are arguing this out not for yourself, but for a client of your former agency.

Thomas, good memory there. Yep, same neighbors.

I think that there are many significant differences between your personality and hers -- I think what could be argued out over a cup of tea with you could lead to an unresolvable escalation with her. As in, I think the scariness I refer to would not be as scary to you, and would in fact be preferred. (The friends and employees who report terror are almost always very female females, as this neighbor is.) Blunt, for you, is good. Blunt, for her, is terrifying.

That is what I have surmised in trying to figure out my approach, at any rate. Because the problem is that there is not one approach that is universally effective. The very approach that would be better with one person is worse with another.

I have considered the resonance catastrophe idea, or at least something similar, and after reading what you wrote considered your exact scenario. It is of limited use. For one thing, I am inclined to forgiveness -- if she says, "Um, sorry if the gardening thing was going too far, I thought at the time it was a good idea but now I'm worried that it was inappropriate," my response would not be a string of invective but, "Well, I was certainly taken aback, but I understand that the impulse was helpful. Thanks for checking with me, I appreciate it." Then some discussion of what is and isn't OK, and moving on.

There can be a reason for her behavior, but that still doesn't mean her behavior was appropriate. And the fact that there are no overtures or indications of second thoughts is compounding the problem, for me.

I'm pretty much assuming that there is a reason, and potentially a good one -- that my backyard is driving her crazy, that she misses the heck out of the old neighbors, whatever. Just, I separate those two things. She probably has a reason, but that doesn't make it OK, and especially, it will not be OK in the future, and I will likely be even madder in the future, so it's in everyone's best interest that it not happen again.

Today sozlet's best friend came over for a playdate, and her mom and I talked for a long time when she (the mom) came to pick her (best friend) up, and so everyone was still here when neighbors came home from work. (We have playdates twice a week, but neighbors are usually at work for them.) Sozlet (who I've left out of this whole thing) ran over to introduce her friend to neighbors. WifeNeighbor again absented herself. (HusbandNeighbor was perfectly friendly, I have no problem with him.) I was right there in a smiling, friendly, not-scary way, ready to say hi if she hadn't conspicuously gotten herself far away and averted her eyes. (She was watering.) HusbandNeighbor chatted for a while, then while we were chatting she walked by and back into the house with eyes averted, then it was time for best friend to go. <shrug>

Anyway, my mode right now is waiting for a natural opportunity and "do you have a minute?", and if that doesn't happen soon, setting up an appointment to talk in some way. (Coffee, or something.) I'm willing to put myself in her line of vision if it's at a time when I can follow up. (Didn't want to get into it while we had guests.)

I continue to be confused by her behavior. As far as she knows, you've sent her a mild thank you note for the mulch. Why is she doing this ducking thing?

So, do you have a fence between your places?

I'm confused as well.

As to fence, not really. Almost "no". There is a fence in the back and halfway up, but then from the back of the house to the street there isn't anything. Their driveway is in between our yard and theirs, (so the yards are not touching), but that's it.

I find that strange as well.
You are really having to work y'er hind end off just to make eye contact with her. Im not sure you will get the apology you deserve.
This doesnt sound like something she will be capable of resolving. It is either shame or anger that is making her shrink away.
Depending on the two, this could be great for your neighbor relationship or destructive to your peaceful life.

I absolutely don't expect an apology at this point, no. I hope that discussion will resolve things to a point where we can co-exist peacefully from then on, but I don't expect a spontaneous apology or even one during the discussion.

I don't know if the ducking is a) just shame/ sheepishness, b) "YOU'RE not not talking to ME, I'M not talking to YOU," c) knowing that when we do talk there's going to be an element of confrontation and trying to avoid that, or d) that the whole point is that she's mad at me in a general way, and the garden thing was just a manifestation of anger that is continuing now.

Or some combination or something else entirely. <shrug>

Re: b), that would be about E.G. and sozlet taking the thank-you note over while I stayed inside and made dinner because I was still way too mad at that point and didn't want to start something without thinking it through more.

Possibly pertinent, possibly not, she has had knock-down drag-out feuds with people at work. I've learned about this from other neighbors. (By the way, we have very good relationships with North neighbors and with 2S neighbors -- that is, the people to the South of the people I have been talking about, or wifeNeighbor's other next-door neighbors.) Could be pertinent in that she lacks monitors as Osso says and has problems as a result, could be that I remind her of some of these people, could be nothing.

Reminds me of one more thing, their only apparent reliable social contact was with FHs, who still come over occasionally. They are friendly with 2S neighbors, but not like they were with FHs.

(We've met FH's and they're nice. North neighbors had problems with them, but that's another story. :-) Suffice it to say that apparently South neighbors and FH's share a tendency towards judgement and a firm sense of what is right and what is wrong when it comes to house and garden...)

Anyway, I'm just blathering in case any of this extra info clarifies things for anyone. Keep the advice/ insight coming.

Ack, I would be absolutely furious!

This is where a couple of big dogs would be very handy, as they have been for me... we have 3 "Beware of Dog" signs in the yard, and if I see folk in our yard (usually kids), I tell them they could easily be bitten (which is actually true).

In a rural area like this, trespassers may well be shot, and will certainly be run off with rather a lot of force. Most neighbors here seem to understand that these are the "rules," and understand as well that "good fences make good neighbors." They aren't offended by these rules.

The fact that she's "hiding" is a big clue that maybe she knows she did the wrong thing. I say, go ahead and frighten her a bit, if that's what it takes to get her to never set foot in your yard without your permission again.

Face-to-face is best, I think, and now that you've had a bit of calming time, you're probably ready to have a clear discussion about it. Using "I" statements won't hurt, as opposed to "you" statements (you already know this, eh?).

I'd make it very clear what you want from her in the future... I think that's the only way to deal with passive-aggressive types. Your feelings and needs are valid whether the other person thinks so or not.

Personally, I'd have to make a big effort not to choke her!

My hunch is her ducking is not shame but high irritation/inchoate anger.

Well, the situation seems to be coming a little more clear now. If she's the kind of person to participate in feuds she must be both judgmental and someone who can hang on to anger for a long time.

I imagine this is mostly about her missing FH, not liking the fact that you don't do things the same way as FH, not liking the fact that you get on well with those that FH didn't, and everything else that stems from you not being FH. She doesn't seem to be able to accept this and just deal, she seems to need to let you know but without confrontation. That would be the passive aggressive part.

So, maybe addressing it from that standpoint rather than the one specific incident would be best? Something like, I know you miss FH but we live here now and we do things differently. Sorry about the back yard but poison ivy, etc... I realize you have a different idea about what is nice than we do, but please don't project your ways on to us as I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I came over to your yard and sprinkled wild flower seeds all over your front lawn. Let's agree to respect each other's differences. You worry about your home and I'll worry about mine.

Wait - I think I'm missing a piece here, please fill me in soz....

(not being sarcastic - I really think I missed something)

After she messed with your garden and you sent the thank you card/gift, you communicated via email. Right?

In this email you back and forthed thanks and stuff. It was friendly?

Then, the next time you see her, she's all avoidant?

Is this the correct time line? I don't want to post again without being sure....

Hi Soz,

I just found this thread. I'd be ballistic if it were me. Is she friendly with the neighbor to the North? I wonder if the neighbor you asked to water while you were gone might have said something to her about you asking about it when you returned.

As far as the next step, depending on whether you want the relationship to be different than it is today, you might show up on her porch with a pitcher of ice tea and ring the bell. When she answers you could tell her you're troubled and concerned that she seems to be avoiding you. Let the conversation go from there, but it gives you an opening.

On the other hand, I'm not all that sure I would want to force the issue at all. If she's the type who has to be in your life as your best friend, or won't be in it at all, then I'd probably chose the not at all, let things run their natural course and see if perhaps a neutral 'nod and wave' relationship grows out of it.

If your goal is what you state in your later message -- "I hope that discussion will resolve things to a point where we can co-exist peacefully from then on''-- I would sidestep the discussion about "appropriate" for now, and go for an argument of the following format instead: "If you do {insert her action}, it makes me {insert your reaction}, which I dislike. In the future, I want you to do {insert your wish/expectation/suggestion} instead. This way we can {insert some reasonably desirable future}.

I believe this will work better than an "appropriateness" discussion for several reasons. First, it still gets to the issue you want do discuss with her. You only give up the immediate apology, which you say is not that important to you anyway. Second, if I was in her situation, I possibly would not accept you as a judge of what's appropriate or inappropriate, especially if I was 30 years older than you. I would, however, accept you as a judge of how you want to be treated, and would not want to mess with you. As you say, her personality is different from mine, so take it with a grain of salt. But you also say she is sensitive, so I still recommend restricting the conversation to the "get off my back" part, which you need to have, and to avoid a "right vs. wrong" part on top of that, which you don't need to have.

Also, I wouldn't expect too much from one single conversation. By your description, it seems to me that you are working against a habit she has formed over 15 years. Breaking this habit of hers will probably require fairly frequent feedback from you. Still, the first of those feedback conversations will probably be the toughest and the most important to get right. Good luck!

Is it possible that she may see the thank you
letter as a form of encouragement for her
actions?

Advice?

I think you need to do whatever you are gonna do pretty damn soon.

The longer it goes on, now, IMHO, the tougher it gets and the odder she can make it seem to her that you waited a long time.

Whatever you do is gonna be awkward, and may lead to her nursing resentment, seems she is like that. Also, sounds like she is a projector - ie the more she may realise how bad what she did is, the badder you hafta become.

Do it - politely but firmly. I agree with Thomas that minimalism is best - but I would still sandwich. And then be calmly friendly whatever crap she pulls of scurrying away or coldness or whatever. If that is just waving and smiling, so be it.


But hey, whadda I know?

A lot!!

Yep, I was thinking the same thing. Plan to make my move this weekend. I'd like to do it organically if possible, see her and go for it, but will make sure it happens at some point this weekend. (She works Monday - Friday and weekends are typically when we see each other.)

I'm much, much more calm, and don't want to do the "hey let's talk" thing ahead of time if I can avoid it. I know that it tends to ratchet up tensions.

By the way, to answer Chai Tea's questions and get some other loose ends tied up (I keep not being sure of what is an isn't important info, and there is a lot of it that is potentially important):

We got home from Texas on a Monday. I immediately noticed the mulch (in the side yard), and immediately was like huh??? E.G. noted that the landscaping on their yard had just been completed, and perhaps they just had one more bag of mulch left over and decided it would be nice to give it to us. That seemed reasonable enough (still a possibility), and I hadn't seen the rest of it yet. I was in the mode of feeling a bit off but getting feedback from E.G. that I was overreacting.

When I checked email right around then, there was an email from wifeNeighbor that she had written while we were gone, just acknowledging one where I had said that we would be in Texas etc. So I replied to that with comments about her yard and thanked her for the mulch. That got the clipped reply -- but a reply.

It was the next day that I figured out the extent of it and got madder and madder. E.G. kept trying to talk me down. (HE's not the one who did all the work!*) I kept feeling like I was overreacting. I kept waiting for it to pass. It kept not passing. (This was when the thank-you card from sozlet, at E.G.'s urging, came up, and when I didn't go with them to give it to her.)

Meanwhile, the avoidance stuff was happening from wifeNeighbor, which was adding to my annoyance. Again, if at any point she had come to me and said some variation of "I had this idea to help but it occurred to me that maybe...", it would've been fine. Water under the bridge.

One other aspect of all of this -- my mode since we moved here has been that I want to be a good neighbor, who is liked by my neighbors. I have been steadily doing what I think will make the neighbors happy. (Not, by the way, increasing coolness as Thomas suggested -- it's been steadily friendly/ giving flowers/ offering to walk their dog for them etc. right up until this. The thing about the winter is that I was holed up inside much of the time because of sozlet's illnesses, and so saw the neighbors less.) So it also took a while for my mode to change from "Oh no she doesn't seem to like me" to "Wait a minute, *I* don't like what SHE did."

After a day or two of that new mode, but not knowing what to do exactly, I started this thread.

I've had several pleasant exchanges with husbandNeighbor, another one just today. (And more avoidance from her.) So I hope that there is some baseline communication of the fact that I'm not a psycho/ that I'm not against them in general.

Anyway, I almost did it a bit ago (started to make a move, saw that they were just sitting down to dinner), plan to definitely get to it this week, have a few basic scenarios planned. Will definitely approach it lightly/ proactively.

As part of that, will hopefully ameliorate some of the "why did you wait so long?" factor, as I plan for it to be a "by the way" and not the sole reason for talking to her. Plan to ask after the health of her mother (both because I'm curious and because I'm wondering if that is some of what is behind this -- I don't want to get all het up about this situation if she's dealing with her mother dying, or something), and talk in general, and then bring it around to, "by the way, I'm a little confused about something..." and follow cues/ conversational bent to get important things across but not be too bombastic about it.

*Have felt that I haven't conveyed the nature of the interference well, both before and after, so one specific example:

She had told me several times that I should cut back the vinca, especially around my plants. I did, cutting back quite a lot. I had planted 6 snapdragons for sozlet amongst some vinca, with mulch at the very edge. I liked how it looked to have the snapdragons emerging from the vinca, and they're ANNUALS -- they won't be around long enough for the vinca to choke them off.

She cut back ALL of the vinca around the snapdragons, with a good foot swath left around them, meaning maybe 10 square feet of vinca was destroyed. She also didn't put any more mulch down there, so the snapdragons were dried out and unhappy (for all of her watering) when we came home, as the vinca that had been shading their roots and holding moisture in was gone and it was just bare dirt.

So that is the category that made me maddest -- putting the mulch down in the sideyard was startling but not so bad, but destroying purposeful elements of my own gardening to fit her own ideal... not kosher.