Tension convention

On appropriate - no, sure I wouldn't use that word, but her futzing with the yard, poisoning plant material, cutting your vinca as you would not have...

I wouldn't let her touch my yard again and would do that by telling her not to, however sandwiched.

As far as your previously thanking her for the mulch, erm...
but if it comes up you can say you were so surprised that you said that, and only that, since you saw that she might have meant well.
(I am not so sure she meant well, actually.)

I think she is going to resent you no matter what you do or say and you might as well be true to yourself, while doing it in as unenraged a manner as possible.

(Just edited long one on previous page, a bit more info/ loose ends...)

Heehee - have you noticed that both husbands seem to be wanting to cover it over, smooth it - hope it will go away!

I just bet hers is saying to her mirror image stuff to what yours is saying.


But - denial won't help.

She was WAY out of bounds.

Good luck, and clear thinking.

Flames rekindled in my landscape architectural ears - but, I can just possibly grasp that she was showing you How and doing what she thought was a really good favor at much work to herself, or was it her gardener....

I'll be the poster child for stern. Don't mess with my property.

Heh. Well, mostly I don't mind - people steal my hydrangeas all the time. They are worth money in the big city by the bay... and even a landscape contractor friend told me he picked some for his girlfriend (sheesh). They are on the north side of the house on a medium busy street. They get irresistably attractive, apparently, from now through October, fabulous colors... I have threatened in my mind to uproot them and transplant to yard behind the fence, but I am lazy, and now moving. Besides, they root from cuttings...

You know what they say...Husband is wise, wife makes pies.

Lol - if it had been HUSBAND'S garden - oy veh!

That husband must have a hard life...

Hee hee -- or husband's CAR, say. ("But I thought some daisies would look pretty -- hey, I worked hard on getting the pink just right...")

The husband seems to be a sweetheart, very laid-back.

I really don't think wifeNeighbor is all bad, either, I think there are a lot of wonderful things about her, but there is some combination of lack of monitors and an apparently very judgemental personality that causes problems. I have a feeling that she is as hard on herself as she is on anyone else, if not harder.

and poking around in your garden just isn't any of her beeswax, as we used to say in the olden days

So, I'm thinking maybe the iciness was something to do with thanking her for the mulch but not for the other stuff. How ungrateful! And perhaps she gets the message from that alone, though you didn't mean to send that particular message.

Your course of action, of course, is the same regardless of her perceptions.

You know, FreeDuck, I think you might have it. That's been very much the dynamic since we arrived. She does something very nice, even overboard. There's this period of expectation. "So, I did this nice thing... ahem." I'm effusive in my thanks. I figure out it's not quite enough and do something more effusive.

I've really only fully broken out of that mode with this -- if I was still in that mode I would totally be figuring out how to make it up to her. Yep.

This talk'll be interesting.

I think that's a well-taken and important point. I like Sozobe's plan for cushioning the problem in this talk. But like I said, I think there will be a few more of those talks before NeighborWife's habits are back on a mutually satisfactory track. I think it's important that those future talks will happen shortly after the irritations that cause it. (Unless you're too angry to stay in control of the conversation.) Short feedback loops are good.


Was there any particular tone in how she told you this? Was it like "try this out, you'll like it", or more like "This is how it works, child. I've helped care for this garden when you were still in high school, so what do you know?" or "This uncut vinca messes with my garden. Get a grip on it!" (I know nothing about gardening, so this last one may be botanically implausible.) I'm asking because the tone of her advice may contain some clues on how much you should go for a stern "don't you dare mess with my stuff again", and how large the more understanding note should be. ("I appreciate the intention, but this is not how it works with me.")


You've got that right.

***

<getting some beer, munching popcorn, sitting on edge of couch, waiting impatiently for news of the battle>

I'm mad on your behalf soz and I don't even garden!! Watching with interest... and breathing fire

I know very well how you must feel. I came home from work one day to find my little old lady neighbor had hired someone to take down an old, unnecessary fence on her property and ALSO ON MINE!!!!!!!!!!

I was so upset I thought about calling the police and having her charged with destruction of property! It didn't matter that the fence needed to come down and I had planned on doing it myself. It was the idea of someone else taking control of my property without my permission.

It took me a day to calm down and then I called her and asked if she knew the gentleman she hired was taking down my fence and she said she did. So, I thanked her for trying to help but calmly told her that I would make such decisions about my property on my own in the future.

There are people who think they're helping when they're really taking liberties. I think you have to be honest with people who don't share your boundary levels and tell them when they overstep.

I'm sure your neighbors thought they were doing you a favor even though they were mistaken. You should have a discussion with them about it or it may very well happen again.

Hi Thomas,

Well, that's a little hard to answer. One thing I said to E.G. recently is that I thought the "Josh Effect" might be another factor in all this. (This is like an onion, ain't it, more and more layers...)

When I lived in the housing co-op there was this one guy who also lived there I was very close to. We got along great, I got him into some Indian fiction and history, we took a class together, would have long talks at midnight in the kitchen. Nothing romantic, just very good friends.

Well, about halfway through the class he started being standoffish. Avoiding me. Long story somewhat shorter, I finally cornered him to find out what was going on, and he said that he a) got frustrated talking to me -- he was medium-easy to lipread, usually once we were into a discussion it was OK but small talk leading there was hard, and b) was furious with himself for letting his frustration interfere with a friendship with someone he liked a lot. He'd get so furious/ guilty that it was simpler to just not see me, because every time he did he felt awful.

So.

Part of why wifeNeighbor is hard to lipread is because what she is broadcasting with every microexpression is, "Ack, she can't understand me! I know she can't understand me! I have to go ahead and talk normally even though she can't understand me. Did she understand that?" I explained (nicely!) what works and doesn't work very early on -- she was of the W.A.Y...O.V.E.R.E.N.U.N.C.I.A.T.I.N.G. school when we first met. When she introduced me to people early on, she always would jump in immediately with "Now [sozobe] is deaf, but she lipreads very well so just go ahead..." This is something else I've spoken to her about, as I usually mention it AFTER I have talked to someone for a while. People often don't know (despite troubles with Josh and wifeNeighbor, depending on circumstances I can have entire conversations with people who have no idea I'm deaf), and the very fact that I have spoken to them effectively for a while frames the fact that I am deaf and how they should continue to speak to me.

Which is a long winded way of saying, when she is speaking to me there is a major Josh aspect of getting through it, trying to keep herself there and not show her frustration but being frustrated and being mad at herself for being frustrated.

So the vinca conversation was rushed and with little eye-contact; the tone was, if anything, school-marmish and "this is the way to do it, young clueless person." But a lot of the tone could be attributable to the Josh effect.

The vinca doesn't affect her yard at all.

Thanks, Bekaboo, it really has helped a lot to be reassured that I'm not a psycho for being upset about this.

Bodhisattvawannabe, that does sound really parallel. Did you have any problems after that? How friendly are you with her?

Part of the problem (another layer) is that the way our houses are set up, we're basically in each others' living rooms. While I don't WANT to stop being on speaking terms, it's also just not practical. We see each other all the time.

Reading this with great interest Soz! I think this a terrific thread.
Thanks for filling in the blanks for me....I was already kinda thinking of what FreeDuck said, but wanted to make sure.....

I have 2 ways of thinking of this...

Perhaps wifeNeighbor expected you would immediately notice every single thing you did the instant you got home, and wanted to hear you gush thanks ad nauseum as to what a terrific help she was, how good her taste was, she was right, it does look better this way, etc.

So, you just mention the mulch, giving a brief thanks via email, when she may have expected you to rush over to her house and throw your arms around her (well, maybe not that far, but, maybe so)
I've known a few people like that, where saying an even heartfelt 'thank you' isn't enough - you've got to go over every single detail of whatever it is, going overboard w/ praise.
one of my sister in laws (whom I love dearly) is like this whenever she has the gang over (meaning all family related, brothers, sisters, inlaws, - no one you have to impress, and can kick of your shoes with)
She'll put a a great spread, buffet style, but if you happen to not take at least some of the green beans almandine, she's all like - OH NO, you didn't like IT! She'll stop when someone finally says "yeah, it's pretty bad:

My other thought is that she realized after the fact that she'd gone overboard, and is being avoidant as she feels guilty

The thing about the husbands? Maybe they are just being the stereotypical males (sorry guys), not even realizing there's a problem. If you never said anything about this to E.G., and brought it up for the first time today, maybe his response would be "Huh"? "Oh, oh yeah, I remember something about mulch".

Next spring I'm going to be tearing up the front yard and it's going to be as low maintenance as possible.
Vinca, clover, lantana, rocks and other perennials that are low maintenance, disease and drought resistant. Some I'm sure would think it'll be a yard full of weeds, others will see it as environmentally smart.

Ask yourself - do I really need such a high maintainance friendship with this neighbor? It sounds like from other things you've said, she's not really someone you would bond with anyway.

Personally - I think the time is past where you can bring this specific event up. Maybe next time you see her you can work into the conversation exactly what your plans for your garden are, as in "You know where I see this garden 2 years from now? Well the vinca will be spread to over there..... a row of annuals there.....That way you're letting her know what your expectations are for YOUR garden, and if she ever happens to "help" again, you can say "Oh my, remember when I was telling you my plans, and I said I wanted......
Hey! Why not even do up a drawing of your plan? That way, when you bring the subject up, you can say "Oh wait a minute, I even did up a plan! Let me run in the house and get it do I can show you exactly how it will be!"
That way - you can let this incident go....let her save face.....and definitely let her how the cow ate the corn.

You know - There's nothing sadder than a sad snap dragon.

Ah, the Josh effect. That does add a layer, even a second layer - she would show you how to do things since you may not get it as you haven't put her advice into action... besides being clueless you might not have even understood. Plus, you were gone, so she could fix things for you in peace..

I agree some of the ducking might be that you thanked her Only for the mulch - but didn't you say she was a bit ducky before this incident? (I'll have to read back a few pages.)

I'm one to be distressed when Mr. Noddy gets creative in MY garden. I don't know if I could tolerate vandalism from a neighbor.

Done is done and the growing season is almost over and fall is coming.

Murder is not socially acceptable.

Is there any chance of passing the buck to E.G. who would convey to Mr. Busybody how upset you were about the "improvements" made in your absence?

Your unhappiness must be expressed, but you'd be wasting your breath if Mrs. Busybody is convinced that deaf people just have no sense of gardening rhythm.

Men have their uses.