gezzy
Sure? I am not even sure I will awake tomorrow morning. I can only hope and believe. One of the problems of this forum and I guess human nature is that we believe our point of view or beliefs are the only valid ones.
dyslexia
Is it your belief or suggestion that at this point we turn tail and run?
Au,
You seem to have sort of one-dimensional thinking to me. They'd have us turn-tail and run? They should only protest the war up until we are fighting, then they should accede and agree?
You don't have any claim to intellectual highground which would justify your offering to "spell" anything out to me. I have great useage of the language.
Perhaps if you feel you have to take on those tones when someone disagrees, yours is the understanding that needs spoon feeding.
I would second any effort to persuade Au to stop using the either/or, us/them language.
Language, Au. You and I can hold whatever opinions we want, but in these forums much more gets accomplished if those opinions are expressed in language which indicates we're not out to decimate or alienate others. You may want to throttle me or Dyslexia or Snood or others, but your arguments are much more effective if you concentrate on their substance rather than on our loathesomeness.
And, it is perfectly possible to support the troops and not the war. It is understood that troops move under orders, are trained and indoctrinated in the war ways, and those that object do not become part of the troop movement. Therefore, I wish our troops well, and do not wish them to come to harm. I do not support the reason they are there.
On the other hand, these troops are trained to kill and maim the enemy, and the enemy is created - not by the troops, but by the people who play war games. One of our generals was quoted in the NY Times today as saying this war was not going as played in the war games. So the troopsare one thing, but distinguished from the event and the people steering that event.
Saddmam expecting the mass protests, and using them? I, for one, would have to see much more evidence of those expectations of Hussein. This sounds far more like an after-the-fact explanation than a reality. But a central fact does seem to be that a lot of things were unexpected. The resistance, for instance, not only of Hussein and his troops, but of the Iraqi people. That was a surprise. The fact that we have not picked up allies as we've gone (something Rumsfeld said would happen), unless you count the lip support of countries most of us have never heard of. The duration so far of this war, which we had been told would be quick and bloodless. The cost of this war in real terms, which we have not yet begun to see.
If anyone cares to remember, a good number of the people who marched in protest against this war talked about all these things. It had nothing to do with loving Saddam Hussein, but it was a far more realistic look at what has actually happened, starting with the Iraqis NOT wanting to be liberated by us. I do not agree, CI. I think, in a shorter picture in other countries, and in a longer picture here, these protests will have meaning. This is the first time people have protested by the millions before a war, and that has significance. And I thought water was important to a frog?
But mama j, it is much easier to claim that people who are against the war are Saddam lovers, Anti-American and UnPatriotic - plus wanting all American troops dead. It fits their purpose and is easier to argue.
Oh, Bill, of course you're right. So, in the end, it can be claimed that it is the protestors who are the true patriots, who want the best for their country and that their country should be at its best. And it requires far more courage to stand up for what you believe than to go with the general flow. I have asked several people who hold different beliefs from me what it is they believe in. Invariably the answer is that Saddam is a tyrant, that we are already there so why make a fuss, that if their president is saying this it must be so...but nowhere in all that is a belief in country, or what the country stands for or should stand for.
We're already paying a price. This war has escalated into the same old war, and there will be casualties. And economically the WTO has already started talking about tariffs against U.S. products. Air travel and tourism - both big industries - are showing huge losses. Medicare payments will go up by close to 7% while payments to doctors are going down - meaning fewer doctors will be accepting medicare patients, which will further worsen our health care picture...
And protestors against all this are screwing up NY traffic,
The Number 1 lesson from the Viet Nam War - never enter a war without an exit strategy. Where is the exit strategy?
"...that Saddam is a tyrant, that we are already there so why make a fuss, that if their president is saying this it must be so..."
I'd say that's the attitude which I find the most horrifying, given that we are a nation of and by the people (not "often buy the people"). Along the lines of "get over it." People who don't want to bother to think for themselves. Big ugh. !Que sinverguenzas...!
The only "exit strategy" is that we're going to stay in Iraq as long as it's required. c.i.
Number 1 mistake of an army - outdistance your supply points!
au
You might be glad not living in Madrid!
OK You win. I suggest you all lie down naked in times square and protest to your hearts content.
. But you better pray I am not driving the bus.
Before anyone gets there nose out of joint just kidding.
This is the essence of a saying I remember however I can't quite remember the exact wording.
Lord give me the strength to do the things I can and the wisdom to understand that which I cannot.
Anyone remember the exact wording. I think it fits the occasion
I hope the war ends soon, for everyone, "soon" especially for those in anti-war movements.
The Serenity Prayer
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
It runs both ways. At the University of Connecticut two (male) students were arrested yesterday on charges of criminal mischief for attacking an antiwar demonstration and causing over $1000 damage. They are both out on bond at the moment. The attack was unprovoked as the demonstration consisted of standing silently next to the main road with signs and errecting serveral tentsand a canopy.
No wonder that some of pro-war people can be violent at the outset, which is deplorable. I say some of pro-peace people can be terrorists in the long duration of time.
