One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

"I have a personal preference for the complete separation of religion and politics."

If it was only possible in the US of A, but that's not to be in our lifetime.

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Suspected Bomb-builder of london terror attacks arrested in Cairo

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panzade wrote:

dlowan wrote:
..how would you lot react if Pakistan demanded that all your bible colleges be closed? Is this likely to decrease hatred and terrorism?

With all due respect, the graduates of Bob Jones University are not known for strapping on a bomb and terrorizing Muslim communities :wink:

Yep - that is indeed true.

And I do concede the point. However, you get the gist, no? Also - the graduates of most madrasas are not strapping bombs on either, so far as I know.

But I do not think the call to destroy all Pakistan's madrasas is likely to be a useful one.

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Bunny

"I also understood that the UK HAD, in fact, taken action against a few Imams who were preaching hate. Is there a real sense that there are many of them in the UK?"

We have locked some of them up, and put restrictions on others. Its not been easy there are profound civil rights issues here.

To cut a long story short, for various reasons, (not excluding the fact that we helped train the muhjahadeen to fight the Russians in Afghanistan] the British security services adopted a softly softly approach to Islamic militants in the UK. It could be that we never took their apolcalyptic visions seriously. Or it could be that the anger and violence they engendered was fine so long as it was channelled where we wanted it to and specifically away from the UK.

Certainly the French were furious with us for refusing to extradite known terrorists who found safe haven in London. Not for nothing did they call it Londonistan.

Before and after 911 men like Abu Hamza (captain hook) and Omar Bakri used the facilities provided by mosques such as the one at Finsbury park in London to spread their message of hate. Most people found this completely inexplicable (including me). I concluded that MI5 had decided the best way of keeping tabs on these psychopaths was to allow them to speak openly (allow their views to be ridiculed] and thus stop them going underground.

Whether this policy was a mistake, or whether MI5 and the like actually have a better "handle" on these militant groups than they are prepared to admit, the fact is they are now to be cleared out of the mosques and from the surrounding streets with a whole new package of legislation. [Which will no doubt be vehemently opposed by civil rights lawyers].

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goodfielder wrote:

...Suddenly the contradictions (at least in my mind) disappeared. Those threats are too great to ignore. There is a natural limit to tolerance and those who would call for the overthrow of the west's liberal democracies to be replaced with Islamic states need to be dealt with. In my own mind at least this is the line in the sand moment. I have a personal preference for the complete separation of religion and politics. I despise the idea of theocracy. Not for me the total submission to god that Islam demands. That is slavery.

Okay messy thinking but for mine those who advocate this should face a criminal trial and imprisonment/deportation.

Enough.

Yep, sadly, that's about where I'm at right now, too. And sadly (again) I have personal experiences that have led me to the same conclusion. There is a limit to tolerance. <sigh>

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seems some pretty eminent people agree with me

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1530817,00.html

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

seems some pretty eminent people agree with me

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1530817,00.html

From the people who gave us the Chatham House Rule.

Interesting points. At least in Britain the rule of law is still paramount.

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dlowan wrote:

panzade wrote:
dlowan wrote:
..how would you lot react if Pakistan demanded that all your bible colleges be closed? Is this likely to decrease hatred and terrorism?

With all due respect, the graduates of Bob Jones University are not known for strapping on a bomb and terrorizing Muslim communities :wink:

Yep - that is indeed true.

And I do concede the point. However, you get the gist, no? Also - the graduates of most madrasas are not strapping bombs on either, so far as I know.

But I do not think the call to destroy all Pakistan's madrasas is likely to be a useful one.

The call to reform their hatred-filled terrorist instruction will be useful.

Madrassahs in Paki and several other locations are mostly to impart hatred of non-Muslims and destruction of the West.

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Sigh, you don't know what you are talking about, Lash.

Many if not most of those Madrassas have existed for long before there WAS hatred of 'the west' in that region; I'm sure they may have some other purpose for existence than to teach people hatred of the west.

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Many if not most of those Madrassas have existed for long before there WAS hatred of 'the west' in that region;

I see your point Cyclo, however the longevity of these Madras' doesn't preclude their inciting some graduates to massacre Londoners.
I am particularly concerned as two of the bombers had just returned from a study program in Pakistan.

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In my view, it is not about the religion (or race, or ethnicity, or history). It is about the activity.

If the folks at Bob Jones University get into the business of training terrorists to bomb mosques, preferably with women and children inside, or the Baptists start using poison gas, explosives, or bullets to run all the Presbyterians and accordian players out of the country via poison gas or explosives, I will be advocating shutting down Bob Jones University or taking very strong issue with Baptists.

What religion these people profess is immaterial. There are untold millions of Moslems who niether murder nor wish to murder anybody.

The intent and/or action to murder, maim, terrorize, and subject whole groups of people is material. And no thinking person will attempt to make excuses or suggest any form of tolerance for it.

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I had to rethink my answer to deb when i saw this today:

"In a statement distributed after his guilty pleas, Rudolph portrayed himself as a devout Christian and said the bombings(of abortion clinics) were motivated by his hatred of abortion and a federal government that lets it continue."

What if Rudolph had graduated from a bible college? Is this what you were inferring deb?

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Steve
I see it was only a momentary lapse in blaming the US for your problems.
For those interested, Steve's link was to an article in the Guardian, which consistently bashes the US and Bush as well as your own PM for his support of Bush on the Iraq issue.

The factual source for this blasphemous article also made me laugh..."An INDEPENDENT think tank, staffed with academics and former civil servants." added comment of mine.....who could be counted upon by the Guardian to provide any amount of biased information to support the Guardian's political agenda.

The excerpt below is a statement made by an Islamic propagandist blaming the Iraq war for turning these "poor boys" into murderers.

Guardian quote wrote:

Azzam Tamimi of the Muslim Association of Britain told a rally in Russell Square, near the scene of the bus bombing, that the Muslim community would not suffer in silence for the crimes of the suicide bombers. "We will continue to talk, we will continue to write and we will continue to challenge the government. I say to Muslims, do not bow to pressure to keep accepting those pointing fingers at you.

"Say, 'No, I'm not responsible for what happened on July 7. My heart bleeds, I condemn it, yes, but I did not make those boys angry. I did not send those bombs to Iraq. I do not keep people locked in Guantánamo Bay and I do not have anything to do with Abu Ghraib, except to denounce it.' Politicians, see what you have done to this world?"

Please keep deluding yourself by taking at face value what this Islamic propagandist says.......tell me Steve do you travel in London in a car....avoiding use of any type of Public transportation?

My new name for you Steve........Lord Chamberlain.....as in Neville Chamberlain

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Sigh, you don't know what you are talking about, Lash.

Many if not most of those Madrassas have existed for long before there WAS hatred of 'the west' in that region; I'm sure they may have some other purpose for existence than to teach people hatred of the west.

Cycloptichorn

You don't know what YOU'RE talking about. I have studied Islam recently and looked into the actual goings on in madrassahs in a few areas. The ones in Paki are among the most virulent propagators of hatred.

Rather than just say I'm wrong because you think you should--or you want me to be wrong--bring evidence I'm wrong.

They are taught blinding intolerance. In the past twenty years, the West has had a starring role as the object of their frustrated hatred.

What have you read about it? Who do you read? What is your experience of information re madrassahs?

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"The world is full of people who are right.That's why it's so NAUSEATING."

Louis-Ferdinand Celine in a letter to Henry Miller.

(capitals his).

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The muslim world of sectariansim finds its closest comparison in the christian protestant. Just as the protestants vary from the snake handlers to the methodists, the world of islam varies from one Imam to the next with scarcely a hint of theologic coherence.

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Rayban I thought you had barred yourself from your (this) thread.

I travelled last Thursday from Liverpool Street to Holborn on the tube. It didnt blow up. It was quieter than usual. But on the way back it was packed with people who had been commemorating the bombings the week previously.

Chatham House is a respected think tank quite independent of the Guardian or government.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Rayban I thought you had barred yourself from your (this) thread.

There might be a next time.

rayban1 wrote:

he factual source for this blasphemous article also made me laugh..."An INDEPENDENT think tank, staffed with academics and former civil servants." added comment of mine.....who could be counted upon by the Guardian to provide any amount of biased information to support the Guardian's political agenda.

Which member of ´the Royal Institute of International Affairs' [aka Chatham House] Directory of Expertise do you mean by the above especially?

And, since the Guardian reports as well that Straw rejects war link to bombings, is the Guardian now using the FCO opinion to support ... well, what?

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rayban1 wrote:

The factual source for this blasphemous article also made me laugh..."An INDEPENDENT think tank, staffed with academics and former civil servants." added comment of mine.....who could be counted upon by the Guardian to provide any amount of biased information to support the Guardian's political agenda.

I take it you don't mean blasphemous in a literal sense, but still...

Who would you rather the independent think tank be staffed with? Who else do you think should staff the think tank? Civilians with no experience of intelligence? Politicians that are affiliated with the Government that launched the war in the first place, and are thus biased towards the Government?

Oh, and Rayban, the right-wing Times, also has an article on the Chatham House's statements.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1698780,00.html.

Does that mean they've got an agenda too?

You may argue that the right-wing Times at least included a denial statement from the Government... but guess what? So did the Guardian, except they gave it its very own article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1531005,00.html

Quote:

The excerpt below is a statement made by an Islamic propagandist blaming the Iraq war for turning these "poor boys" into murderers.

Guardian quote wrote:
Azzam Tamimi of the Muslim Association of Britain told a rally in Russell Square, near the scene of the bus bombing, that the Muslim community would not suffer in silence for the crimes of the suicide bombers. "We will continue to talk, we will continue to write and we will continue to challenge the government. I say to Muslims, do not bow to pressure to keep accepting those pointing fingers at you.

"Say, 'No, I'm not responsible for what happened on July 7. My heart bleeds, I condemn it, yes, but I did not make those boys angry. I did not send those bombs to Iraq. I do not keep people locked in Guantánamo Bay and I do not have anything to do with Abu Ghraib, except to denounce it.' Politicians, see what you have done to this world?"

Please keep deluding yourself by taking at face value what this Islamic propagandist says.......

And what do you expect him to say, Rayban?

What if they were all Christian? What if this had been a Christian bombing on an Islamic site? Would the Christian community have been justified to say that they weren't responsible?

Maybe it's the way you worded it, but I get the general impression that you are labelling all Muslims as terrorists and responsible for terrorists.

Quote:

My new name for you Steve........Lord Chamberlain.....as in Neville Chamberlain

I know that's not directed at me, but still... The insults and name-calling never stop coming with you, do they, Rayban?

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Steve wrote:

Rayban I thought you had barred yourself from your (this) thread.

I thought I could stay on the sidelines but when I saw so much vitriol directed at Lash, I decided to give you America haters another target. Sorry I don't have time for more but will catch Wolf later.

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One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

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