One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

It has another level too.That's even funnier.

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McGentrix wrote:

*sigh*

It's far less humorous when it needs to be explained.

Spendius said "You sound like you are preaching to five year olds."

Mcgentrix said "Well, to be fair, he is addressing his post towards liberals Spendius."

See? I was comparing liberals to five year olds. It was a partisan snipe aimed at the many participants on A2K with which I enjoy a daily banter.

*sigh* Sorry to be an even bigger drain on your inexhaustable wisdom McG, but you seem to have left my views out there in the barren wastelands. Comments?

And Rayban....what do you think of my slant on the whole thing?....that's if you're prepared to converse with a weak kneed, lilly livered turncoat Brit, of course.

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Lord Ellpus, I have nothing but the highest regard for the Brits. A more stoic, polite, well mannered bunch has never existed. Speaking as a descendent of British stock, it would ill-behoove me to ever under-estimate the pride or scorn of the British populace. However, just like in America, there is a certain part of the population with which I disagree with in regards to politics.

I wish more Americans here would try to understand that Britain is not America and visa versa. You have far more laws and restrictions on invidual freedoms than could ever be enforced by our Patriot act. Seems things like that are forgotten...

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McGentrix wrote:

Lord Ellpus, I have nothing but the highest regard for the Brits. A more stoic, polite, well mannered bunch has never existed. Speaking as a descendent of British stock, it would ill-behoove me to ever under-estimate the pride or scorn of the British populace. However, just like in America, there is a certain part of the population with which I disagree with in regards to politics.

I wish more Americans here would try to understand that Britain is not America and visa versa. You have far more laws and restrictions on invidual freedoms than could ever be enforced by our Patriot act. Seems things like that are forgotten...

You have me confused, Rayban....it seems that NOW you only have the highest regard for us.

I tell you now, if you walked into ANY pub in the land and spouted your arrogant garbage at such an inappropriate time, you would no doubt wake up with a vest full of broken ribs and a crowd staring at you.
Your whole beginning to this thread has seriously annoyed me.

What would happen if I had walked into a Bronx bar, a week after 9/11 and said "Well, you yank liberals had it coming"

Totally insensitive, ill thought through and thoroughly sickening.

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McGentrix wrote:

You have far more laws and restrictions on invidual freedoms than could ever be enforced by our Patriot act. Seems things like that are forgotten...

Is this a criticism or a bit of envy?

Anyhow, I can't imagine how the attacks in London would build British support for Bush. Isn't it Bush who justifies the war in Iraq as the means to keep the fight on terrorism off US soil? I wouldn't think that British folk find fighting the war on their soil is such a good thing...

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Lord Ellpus, I have nothing but the highest regard for the Brits. A more stoic, polite, well mannered bunch has never existed. Speaking as a descendent of British stock, it would ill-behoove me to ever under-estimate the pride or scorn of the British populace. However, just like in America, there is a certain part of the population with which I disagree with in regards to politics.

I wish more Americans here would try to understand that Britain is not America and visa versa. You have far more laws and restrictions on invidual freedoms than could ever be enforced by our Patriot act. Seems things like that are forgotten...

You have me confused, Rayban....it seems that NOW you only have the highest regard for us.

I tell you now, if you walked into ANY pub in the land and spouted your arrogant garbage at such an inappropriate time, you would no doubt wake up with a vest full of broken ribs and a crowd staring at you.
Your whole beginning to this thread has seriously annoyed me.

What would happen if I had walked into a Bronx bar, a week after 9/11 and said "Well, you yank liberals had it coming"

Totally insensitive, ill thought through and thoroughly sickening.

Yeah, that's great. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you could try getting the names right in the future before you make these rants?

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I ought to say that injured pride isn't motivating my posts.I don't give a toss what some toss pot over there thinks.But shouting out in public has to be answered otherwise it gains credibility and comes to mean something.

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McGentrix wrote:

Lord Ellpus wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Lord Ellpus, I have nothing but the highest regard for the Brits. A more stoic, polite, well mannered bunch has never existed. Speaking as a descendent of British stock, it would ill-behoove me to ever under-estimate the pride or scorn of the British populace. However, just like in America, there is a certain part of the population with which I disagree with in regards to politics.

I wish more Americans here would try to understand that Britain is not America and visa versa. You have far more laws and restrictions on invidual freedoms than could ever be enforced by our Patriot act. Seems things like that are forgotten...

You have me confused, Rayban....it seems that NOW you only have the highest regard for us.

I tell you now, if you walked into ANY pub in the land and spouted your arrogant garbage at such an inappropriate time, you would no doubt wake up with a vest full of broken ribs and a crowd staring at you.
Your whole beginning to this thread has seriously annoyed me.

What would happen if I had walked into a Bronx bar, a week after 9/11 and said "Well, you yank liberals had it coming"

Totally insensitive, ill thought through and thoroughly sickening.

Yeah, that's great. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you could try getting the names right in the future before you make these rants?

Apologies, McG.......my wrath should have been directed at Rayban, regarding this whole thread, and not your individual comment. I seem to get you two confused for some reason,

My sentiments regarding this thread still stand.

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In actual fact, I would go as far as to say that quite a few of the Brit contingent here would chip in to pay for his airfare, so that we could come along to the Pub and attend his talk.

Single fare only at this stage, mind you....we wouldnt want to waste money on a return ticket if there was no necessity.

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To all Brits from rayban

Would you all please read the article by your Home Secretary....Suddenly you are no longer sympathetic observers of the tragic attack on this country----instead you are the victims. I merely pointed out the different perspective you now have and that you take the attitude that you must now do something to combat this evil menace.

When you were merely observers, two different perceptions formed in my mind. First there was the perception of total and absolute support from your PM, Mr. Blair, and he has followed through without hesitation and has become our best and often only ally. On the other hand, a large percentage of Brits immediately took the stance that it was our fault. We had created this terrorist monster and they gave your PM holy hell for supporting us in any form or fashion.

Now that you are the victims, it is obvious that you want action to be taken and both Mr. Clarke and your PM are responding admirably, IMO.

I very much admired the stoic response of all the Brits and you very much displayed the spirit eloquently spoken of by your PM, who BTW is in my estimation a great leader, that you would not be terrorized. There was no panic and by the next day it appeared to me that the British people were determined to show that everything was again normal.

In summation I wish to say that my only intent was to distinguish between being an observer and the victim........the attitude is entirely different

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Hey, rayban, why not leave off telling the Brits how they're supposed to feel or what they're supposed to think, or whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish.

It's the height of arrogance.

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D'artagnan wrote:

Hey, rayban, why not leave off telling the Brits how they're supposed to feel or what they're supposed to think, or whatever the hell you're trying to accomplish.

It's the height of arrogance.

D art what ever your name is........go pick a fight somewhere else.

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Re: One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

Lord Ellpus wrote:

rayban1 wrote:
Brits have suddenly stopped bashing Bush because reality has smacked them in the face. It is very sad that it took such violence to force a change in attitude.......blah de blah.....

If the "let's kick some ass" section of your population actually aimed your initial post 9/11 wrath at Al Quaida, in Yemen and other such well known hideouts, instead of wimping out against a soft target, for reasons known only to the Bush administration, various oil Companies and Halliburton, the massive recruitment of new "insurgents" would have been severely curtailed, if not stopped altogether.

As things stand, owing to Bush's illogical strategy, virtually the whole AQ network is still in place, the Moslemworld feels aggrieved at what is happening in Iraq, and their young hotheads are clamouring to join in the fight. Most of those end up going into Iraq to fight our fellow countrymen. Some however, are learning how to explode bombs in civilian cities around the western world.

I will continue to "bash" Bush, for either not having the brains, the balls or the morals to go hell for leather at AQ, when he had the vast majority of the world behind him.

We have paid for this recently, and somewhere else will probably be in a similarly awful situation in the future, and so on.

Bush has managed to open up what was a simple matter of the USA v AQ, into what is now seen as the Western world, against the Moslem.

We are not chumps over here, as you imply. We probably have stricter anti terrorist laws and greater powers of arrest and imprisonment, than you have in the USA.
The preachers of hate that were on our streets have now been arrested, and have been in prison for some months.
However, they all have fixed charges against them, and trials will be forthcoming.....oh, and they dont wear orange boiler suits whilst being carried on stretchers in front of news cameras, on their way to "interrogation". They also have access to lawyers. We havent gone the "Gitmo" route yet, as we still believe in a fair system of justice, and more importantly, we dont want to inadvertantly assist them in their recruitment, as you have done so very effectively.

I thought a number of "preachers of hate" had been acted against ages ago? I also understood that their numbers were quite small when compared with most Muslim clerics in England. Am I correct, Ellpus?

England is actually well used to dealing with terrorism - having dealt with the IRA attacks for many years, and has long had a vigorous debate about how far the law can go in dealing with them. It has also had to deal with releasing a number of IRA people who were imprisoned for many years, having found that they were wrongly convicted.

I agree with whoever has already said that we are all against terrorism - simply against the bewilderingly nonsensical attack on Iraq - which the right here persist on deciding (or pretending?) to interpret as meaning that others are pro-terrorism.

It would seem natural that laws are once again debated post-bombing, since I understand that a lot of intelligence etc effort has gone into detecting threats fom outside - as was the case in the attacks on the USA - and will now have to concentrate even more on the threat from INSIDE.

I would have thought this not so very different from fighting the IRA - since Britain being one country, there as a large domestic Irish population for the IRA to recruit from in England - as well as Irish-based IRA folk being able to travel with ease to England.

Anyhoo - I am bumping my gums, since those of you who agree with me know already that being anti-Iraq II is not the same as being against trying to deal with terror, and those of you who take a different view are unpersuadable.

There is a nice wall here and it will be a lot more fun bumping my head against it...

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Only if you personally think of yourself as the centre of the f*****g universe.

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Er - I do so hope you were not addressing ME, Spendius? Lol!

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Due to factors beyond my control I ought to say that my last post referred to the post about the difference between the victim and the observer.

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Re: One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

rayban1 wrote:

Brits have suddenly stopped bashing Bush because reality has smacked them in the face. It is very sad that it took such violence to force a change in attitude.

Let's dissect your opening 29 word statement on this thread shall we, to see what's what, and why you inflamed such passion.

1. "Brits have suddenly stopped bashing Bush".
Now, this could either be some sort of slandering remark, about our sex life life coming to a halt, or it states that "Brits" (not SOME Brits) have suddenly stopped criticising your President. Please note that no evidence is presented, to support such a sweeping statement.
THIS STATEMENT IS INCORRECT, by the mere fact that I continue to criticise Bush, for his illogical tactics regarding the fight against AQ. I am sure that there are MANY more like me, who will still criticise Bush for various reasons.

2. "because reality has smacked them in the face"
Reality has smacked us in the face, as you so sensitively put it, on our own soil, on a VERY regular basis, in the form of Terrorist attacks and wartime bombing, since the beginning of the 20th Century....over 100 years of it.
It is very insulting, patronising and ironic that someone from the USA, can take to his high horse regarding this matter, considering the fact that you have experienced only a few of instances of "proper" terrorism on your own soil, and lecture US on the reality of the carnage caused by bombs, some being funded by US Nationals, which helped the IRA plant bombs in Pubs, London Streets and even blowing up a hotel in an attempt to wipe out our elected Government.

"It is very sad that it took such violence to force a change in attitude"
I refer you to back to U.S. nationals funding the IRA.....I didnt see any change of attitude over there, when we were being blown apart on a weekly basis. You are obviously more steadfast than us, as your people carried on giving bucketloads of money, so we could be bombed some more.

A simple 29 word statement to you, evokes a lot of anger in me, I'm afraid.

A bit of forethought and sensitivity, along with a lot more research in future, I think.
0 out of 10. Could do better.

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0 out of 10 your worship!!!?

It was worse than that.It would take years to get him to that level.

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Smug arrogance. I cant abide it at the best of times, let alone when the timing is totally inappropriate.

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However, significant changes are taking place.

France reverts policy and mans borders.

Blair will be able to push through safety measures reminiscent of the Patriot Act.

Per Rayban, the dialogue--while not completely off Bush--has switched to terrorists--and the Brits may be more inclined to understand us better now, in the wake of this attack.

911 was before Iraq.

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One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

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