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One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange

 
 
rayban1
 
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 08:23 am
Brits have suddenly stopped bashing Bush because reality has smacked them in the face. It is very sad that it took such violence to force a change in attitude.



London bombs

July 13, 2005

Clarke to rid Britain of 'preachers of hate'
By Simon Freeman, Times Online

Charles Clarke today said that he was prepared to implement any practical measures - including deportation of radical preachers - to protect Britain against a repeat of the July 7 bombings.



The British Home Secretary said it must be assumed there are others prepared to carry out similar suicide attacks.



"I think we have to organise ourselves on a basis that there are other people prepared to act in this way and we have to protect ourselves in the best way we can against that," Mr Clarke said.



"We have to assume there are others ready to do the kind of things these people did last Thursday."



The Home Secretary,
who is in Brussels today seeking agreement among his counterparts in Europe for proposals to store tracts of data from mobile phone and e-mail records, said that the core values of Britain's "democratic, multicultural" society were at stake.



He accepted that failings in intelligence gathering and sharing had to be addressed in the wake of the London attack which claimed at least 52 lives.



But Mr Clarke insisted that it was crucial to "root out" the sources of the ideology which turned four British men into suicide bombers. He accepted that a careful balance had to be struck between maintaining civil liberties and preventing terrorism.



He said: "In contrast to some other societies, the events of last Thursday have seen a very strong response from across the whole of British society. Now we have to defend the values of that kind of society against those who would seek to destroy it.



"That means standing out against - in a very strong way - anybody who preaches the kind of fundamentalism which can lead four young men to blow themselves and others up on the Tube on a Thursday morning.



"We have to address those international links, which is one of the reasons we need the intelligence to deal with it. We have to understand that these foot soldiers who have done this are only one element of an organisation that is bringing about this kind of mayhem in our society.



"And we have to attack the people who are driving it, organising it, manipulating those people."



He said that he was looking "very directly" at fundamentalist preachers who stir up racial hatred among their followers saying that he was surprised and shocked that the bombers were apparently British.



He warned: "We can't just assume that we are all OK in our democratic, multicultural society.



"I'm ready to look at any measures, including deportation, necessary to do that. I certainly think that people in this country who are undermining the very fundamentals of our country ought not to be here.



"There is a very fine line between free speech and promoting terror. Getting that line right is very important," he told Radio 4's Today programme.



"But certain types of argument are not acceptable," the Home Secretary said, adding that there would have to be constraints on free speech.



Mr Clarke said protection would involve sharing of intelligence between European countries, extending powers to seize information obtained from e-mails and phone companies and tracking the disposal of high-grade explosives.



The Home Secretary will today attempt to convince a Brussels summit, called in response to last Thursday's atrocities, to endorse his telecoms data proposals.



The European Parliament's Committee on Civil Liberties (LIBE), will consider forcing mobile telephone companies and internet service providers (ISPs) to store details of electronic communications for between a year and three years.



Mr Clarke will suggest the move would make it easier for police and intelligence services to establish when and where a telephone call, text message or e-mail was sent, and to whom.



LIBE threw out the proposal almost unanimously in May "due to sizeable doubts on the choice of the legal basis and the proportionality of the measures".



It also warned that the measures might breach Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the right to respect for private and family life.



But Mr Clarke will reinforce his arguments - and those for a Europe-wide biometric ID card - in the face of the attacks on London.



He said: "There are organisations and individuals who want to destroy the fundamental structure of our democracy - our free media, our multi-cultural society, our free economy and so on - because they believe in their core that this is wrong - that they should destroy it.



"That is a clarion call to everybody to say we have to fight for the society we have rather than just coasting along assuming its all OK."
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thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 08:30 am
Don't go too quick Rayban - I think when the dust settles it will be the Brit's who are clamoring for responsibility to those who made them 'less safe'. I am not saying this is the reality - I am saying that it is the most likely perception.

I admit that I may be TOTALLY wrong here. Time will tell.

TTF
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 09:09 am
Rayban

Your original proposition is rubbish.

Mr Bush has plenty of support here from the top down.Why are you suggesting otherwise?
0 Replies
 
rayban1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 09:31 am
thethinkfactory wrote:
Don't go too quick Rayban - I think when the dust settles it will be the Brit's who are clamoring for responsibility to those who made them 'less safe'. I am not saying this is the reality - I am saying that it is the most likely perception.

I admit that I may be TOTALLY wrong here. Time will tell.

TTF


TTF
I think you missed the point of my comment.......many Brits will never stop criticizing Bush and US efforts to destroy terrorism but at least they were suddenly forced to examine what their tolerance for multiculturalism has allowed to breed in their own back yard. It is absolutely insane to allow some Imams to preach hatred which in turn forces young fanatics to step over the line and become suicide bombers. We should take the same action here that Clarke is contemplating.......identify those who preach hatred and deport them.

The evidence is fairly conclusive that all four bombers were Brits.......this sudden realization can only lead to one conclusion.......continued tolerance for preaching hatred will lead to continued violence. The UK is similar to France in that they have a large Muslim population with a corresponding percentage of fringe fanatics who are just waiting for some preacher of hatred to push them over the edge.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:15 am
What does "many Brits" mean.

It's impossible to debate with that type of language.

The whole post is ridiculous.Every word of it has been on all the news channels 50 times over.Do you believe in magic wands?

Are you saying we have been "absolutely insane" up to this week.

You're a bit that way if you think that post is worth the effort.Have you got this "evidence" you are fairly conclusive (sic) about?

You sound like you are preaching to five year olds.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:24 am
Well, to be fair, he is addressing his post towards liberals Spendius.
0 Replies
 
Lord Ellpus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:53 am
Re: One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange
rayban1 wrote:
Brits have suddenly stopped bashing Bush because reality has smacked them in the face. It is very sad that it took such violence to force a change in attitude.......blah de blah.....


If the "let's kick some ass" section of your population actually aimed your initial post 9/11 wrath at Al Quaida, in Yemen and other such well known hideouts, instead of wimping out against a soft target, for reasons known only to the Bush administration, various oil Companies and Halliburton, the massive recruitment of new "insurgents" would have been severely curtailed, if not stopped altogether.

As things stand, owing to Bush's illogical strategy, virtually the whole AQ network is still in place, the Moslemworld feels aggrieved at what is happening in Iraq, and their young hotheads are clamouring to join in the fight. Most of those end up going into Iraq to fight our fellow countrymen. Some however, are learning how to explode bombs in civilian cities around the western world.

I will continue to "bash" Bush, for either not having the brains, the balls or the morals to go hell for leather at AQ, when he had the vast majority of the world behind him.

We have paid for this recently, and somewhere else will probably be in a similarly awful situation in the future, and so on.

Bush has managed to open up what was a simple matter of the USA v AQ, into what is now seen as the Western world, against the Moslem.

We are not chumps over here, as you imply. We probably have stricter anti terrorist laws and greater powers of arrest and imprisonment, than you have in the USA.
The preachers of hate that were on our streets have now been arrested, and have been in prison for some months.
However, they all have fixed charges against them, and trials will be forthcoming.....oh, and they dont wear orange boiler suits whilst being carried on stretchers in front of news cameras, on their way to "interrogation". They also have access to lawyers. We havent gone the "Gitmo" route yet, as we still believe in a fair system of justice, and more importantly, we dont want to inadvertantly assist them in their recruitment, as you have done so very effectively.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 11:56 am
I'll second that.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 12:18 pm
Re: One event changes attitude in UK-----how strange
Lord Ellpus wrote:

I will continue to "bash" Bush, for either not having the brains, the balls or the morals to go hell for leather at AQ, when he had the vast majority of the world behind him.

We have paid for this recently, and somewhere else will probably be in a similarly awful situation in the future, and so on.

Bush has managed to open up what was a simple matter of the USA v AQ, into what is now seen as the Western world, against the Moslem.


AQ has indeed become a greater force to reckon with since the US invasion of Iraq because of the "War on Islam" undertones of the "War on Terror".
Bushco (and many right leaning A2K'ers) has long ignored the capabilities of AQ almost to the extent of an outright denial of their physical or ideological existence. The focus has been on the Saddam regime change and not on the task at hand...seeking out and destroying the perps of 9/11--namely AQ.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 12:33 pm
You have hit the nail on the head, Lord Ellpus.

The weakness and ineptness displayed by the Bush administration is a reflection on them and not on the British who have responded in a controlled and intelligent manner during this terrible situation. They have somebody in custody and were quick to do so. Meanwhile, the Bush regime has gone to war with a country that had nothing to do with 911. Why is AQ still a dominant force?
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:06 pm
How dare you? How dare you insinuate that the entire British population is a monoideological wasteland?

There were those who supported Bush and those that didn't, before the bombing.

Right now things are pretty much the same.

Maybe I shouldn't be reading too much behind the purpose of your post, but I got the general impression that you were implying that we are a bunch of weak-kneed, ignorant cowards that change our mind at an instant at the first sight of danger.

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm not one of them and I'm sure many others in this country aren't like that either.

We as a people have had many terrorist attacks inflicted on us before. There have been those who have changed minds, but there are also those who have the courage to remain steadfast and to not give in to the terrorists.

To change our political views because of what a terrorist does is to admit defeat.

Don't get me wrong, there are some things that we should change our minds over but only when there is evidence to suggest we should.

A terrorist attack merely states that Bush hasn't managed to successfully destroy al Qaida and that there was a lapse in intelligence. It does not suggest he was right and that we should follow his example.

I find this labelling of liberals and conservatives and the stereotypes perpetrated in these forums insulting.

Furthermore, I find the very purpose of this topic insulting to those that have died and to those that have lost loved ones; to just sit there with a inanely smug grin and say, look at this, this terrible event has happened and the Brits are changing their minds and it proves we're right.

Maybe I'm getting my knickers in a twist over nothing. Maybe you didn't intend all of this, in which case, I apologise sincerely wth all my heart.

However, this just seems completely unacceptable.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:22 pm
I wouldn't agree that AQ is a dominant force.It is a matter of perspective.
Some people here,and I don't think they are fools,think that the US missed the boat in 1956.But that is water under the bridge now.

Somebody raised the blood feud idea.And it isn't new.Oswald Spengler,in The Decline of the West,gave it modernish legs.He predicted the final battle being between blood and money.Lawrence picked it up and made a giant metaphor out of it.It has been said that money power killed Sir Anthony Eden.Money chickened in '56.Blinked!

How's that for ignoring day by day politics?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:27 pm
You're spot on Wolf.Pity about the tame rhetoric but never mind.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:39 pm
Lord Ellpus, Wolf both of you had confronted directly what few in this country are willing to say. Spain, Britain, the Netherlands are the victims of a foolish and misguided US policy that is spreading terror and insecurity not containing it. Do not be surprised if you are now subject to the same slanderous disrespect on this forum that the right wing heaps on those in the US that fail to buy into their delusions.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:42 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Well, to be fair, he is addressing his post towards liberals Spendius.


Blair is what you call " a liberal" = the leader of a a democratic socialist party (quotation Labour Party website)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:54 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Well, to be fair, he is addressing his post towards liberals Spendius.


Blair is what you call " a liberal" = the leader of a a democratic socialist party (quotation Labour Party website)


When did Blair start posting on A2K?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 01:57 pm
So this wasn't addressed to liberal Brits per se but only to Labour members here on A2K?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 02:10 pm
You jump on the non-issues like a dog jumps on bone.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 02:11 pm
*sigh*

It's far less humorous when it needs to be explained.

Spendius said "You sound like you are preaching to five year olds."

Mcgentrix said "Well, to be fair, he is addressing his post towards liberals Spendius."

See? I was comparing liberals to five year olds. It was a partisan snipe aimed at the many participants on A2K with which I enjoy a daily banter.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2005 02:16 pm
And it did make me laugh.
0 Replies
 
 

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