Attack in London Today

thethinkfactory wrote:

I am not playing any more 'answer Lash' games until you answer mine - I asked for facts - not a geography lesson.

You are claiming that the Muslims are the "aggressors" in Israel? The sword always cuts both ways my fiend. To think that simply because these places have Muslims at war explains the "evil" of a religion is to simply look at every issue as one sided.

I would ask you to go back to 1945 to define your conception of aggressor in Israel - but that would be the past - and we can't do that. The past, to you, is tired and irrelevant.

TTF

The Inquisition is over. Yes or no.

1) Yes - but because it is over you cannot brush thousands of dead under the rug to make yourself feel better.

That was then. This is now. We are talking about now. Why are you unable to discuss the present? We've talked about the past ad nauseum. Your inability to discuss this one issue diminishes your credibility.

Christian extremists aren't in wars all over the globe. Yes or no
2) No. Neither are Muslims nor Jews.

Incorrect!

These are the wars being fought by Muslims.
Right now.

Spain
Sudan (Arab North vs. Christian South)
Nigeria
Balkans States (SE Europe)
Russia (Chechnya region)
Israel
Iraq
India vs. Pakastan
China vs. Muslim seperatist (extreme SW region)
Thailand (southern muslims vs. buddist)
Indonesia (Bali, etc)
Phllippinese (mostly on the southern islands)

London

But all three are engaged in skirmishes in the name of their religion . But to imply that Muslims are engaged in active warfare all over the globe is simply a misinformed non-truth.
Wrong. See the list of their CURRENT attempted conquests.

There are three quarters of a billion muslims - if all or even a large portion were at war the whole world would be actively at war.

It is. Take a look around you.

You really are seeing a relative handful. Unfortunately every night you are bombarded with that handful on the news. I don't blame you for being confused.

I do blame you a bit, for taking on an argument you are so ill-informed about.
RIGHT NOW, Muslim extremists ARE in wars in more than a few places and fueled by their religion. Yes or no.
3) Arguable. To focus merely on the Muslims is to ignore other agressors. You have to ignore the Jews in Isreal and focus merely on the Muslims. You have to ignore the American's in Afganistan and Iraq and merely focus on the Muslims. If you chose to do so... sure.

The list has a common thread. Muslims at war. If one or two conflicts have questionable blame---the list STILL shows a pattern, doesn't it? Afghanistan ? You try to act as though the US presence had anything to do with the impetus of the war in Afghanistan? I don't think anything further you say will have any meaning. Surely you don't blame the US for the Afghanistan conflict. I think even the most liberal Democrat knows and admits who caused that one.
The hierarchy of the Christian religion DOES NOT condone murder in the name of their religion. Yes or no
4) Yes. Neither of the broad branches of Christianity (Catholic or Protestant) condone murder. However, to think that the stance of Sunni or Shi'ite religion condone terrorism is a misinformed and ignorant statement.

Many religious leaders of Islam openly applaud murder in the name of Islam and their god. Such behavior in Christianity would be condemned, roundly.
There are Islamic religious leaders, who DO CONDONE murder in the name of their religion. Yes or no.
5) Yes. And their are Christian leaders who condone murder, terrorism, and war. I mentioned two such orginizations above. You ignored them but you cannot. They kill and terrorize thousands...worldwide.

Name them. Name the Christian leaders who condone murder in the name of Christ or the Christian church who have not been rebuked by the church hierarchy.

This is NOT a retreat to history - did you not read my posts above? I have cited active and murderous Christian extremist groups that far outstrip AQ in their death toll. You have ignored them and posted loaded, ill-conceived bunk on this thread as a response.

The Christian church does not approve of murder in the name of their religion.

You watch a one sided and ethnocentric media and claim to know facts. Look up and research what I have claimed and you will see it is based in fact. Yours is based in opinion - unsupported, one-sided, blind opinion.

Your failure. You run from the issue and the discussion and try to make it about me--and worse, do it with false statements you have no way of proving. I have read a few books and many articles in scholarly magazines. You do yourself a disservice by retreating from facts to support your charges and trying to mischaracterize me. What I say is based on fact. What you say is a desperate attempt to support a failed liberal policy of deception and political correctness.

However, I have answered your questions so why don't you reply with any sort of facts (FACTS) that allow you to state that Islam is a more 'wicked' religion.

You quoted 'wicked'. That usually denotes someone having used that word. Who are you quoting?

The information I brought is from global policy. Do you deny the wars that are listed? Do you deny that Muslims are in all of those wars? What assertion have I made that you deny? I dare you to limit your comments on the issue. You can't do it. You're afraid of the facts.

TTF

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"If it takes 10 years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord." - Jerry Falwell, Oct. 24, 2004, CNN.

This Christian sentiment is so much better. Your right Lash.

In your twisted view and loaded questions your world view is the only answer possible. You have to ignore the other sides of these wars to do so however. If you can paint an entire near 1 billion member religion with so big of a brush as to see them all as evil - who am I to try to convince you otherwise.

You ignore the Christian Terror groups, you ignore history, you ignore the other sides of conflicts and quote 'facts'. Your world view must be the truth. Thank God you represent only one vote.

TTF

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Link please.

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Here is the CNN transcript:

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0410/24/le.01.html

I wager you will agree with his entire comment.

TTF

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You should be ashamed. You tried to infer to people reading here that Falwell had authorized killing innocent people LIKE THE ISLAMIC IMAMS DO.

The quote shows he said that quote SPEAKING ABOUT MURDEROUS TERRORISTS.

JACKSON: Let's stop the killing and choose peace. Let's choose negotiation over confrontation.

FALWELL: Well, I'm for that too. But you've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops. And I'm for the president to chase them all over the world. If it takes 10 years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord.

-----
You're damn right. I do agree with it. You don't?

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I can't and don't believe that the 'good news' about God's love and grace can be turned into an explicit threat to "blow them all away in the name of the Lord".

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Take it up with God.

Meanwhile, I hope we kill all of the terrorists.

Are you wanting to protect them, Walter, while they murder innocent people....children...? Why do you prefer terrorists to the rest of us?

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Jeepers Lash do you always use ad hominems instead of arguments? You won't answer a question directly but you go for the throat when you're cornered and sticking with your nick you lash out. Come on stick to the arguments.

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I'm right on top of the arguments.

I've answered every question asked.

You, however, just completely avoided the topic with a post that was completely personal characterization.

Do as you say, eh?

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I guess everybody is re-assessing after finding out that Islam is at war all over the world.

As soon as you read up on the facts, you'll all be Republicans.

<waiting while they read>

<heh>

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Lash wrote:

I'm right on top of the arguments.

I've answered every question asked.

You, however, just completely avoided the topic with a post that was completely personal characterization.

Do as you say, eh?

Sez you - just as well there's no umpire eh?

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Lash wrote:

I'm right on top of the arguments.

I've answered every question asked.

You, however, just completely avoided the topic with a post that was completely personal characterization.

Do as you say, eh?

I didn't avoid anything I had a direct shot at you I wasn't trying to make an argument so it wasn't an ad hominem just pointing out your tactics.

Better wait for the next lot of talking points eh?

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You had no shot, no point, no reason to open your mouth.

Do you have anything of value to add--or you just want to go about characterizing people who you can't seem to argue a point with?

Looks like you're the one waiting for a hint of something to say.

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Lash wrote:

You had no shot, no point, no reason to open your mouth.

Do you have anything of value to add--or you just want to go about characterizing people who you can't seem to argue a point with?

Looks like you're the one waiting for a hint of something to say.

Nope just wanted to point out what you're up to. It's pretty clear now.

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See goodfielder talk.

See goodfilder avoid the topic.

See goodfielder try to distract from the fact that the entire Democrat contingent on this thread is desperately trying to pull their pants up.

See goodfielder unable to address the topic.

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See goodfielder rapidly losing interest in this Very Happy

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Hmm .. this is an interesting combination of assertions:

Lash wrote:

Christian extremists aren't in wars all over the globe

Lash wrote:

These are the wars being fought by Muslims.
Right now.

Spain
Sudan (Arab North vs. Christian South)
Nigeria
Balkans States (SE Europe)
Russia (Chechnya region)
Israel
Iraq
India vs. Pakastan
China vs. Muslim seperatist (extreme SW region)
Thailand (southern muslims vs. buddist)
Indonesia (Bali, etc)
Phllippinese (mostly on the southern islands)

I wonder who Lash thinks Muslims are at war with in Sudan, Nigeria, the Balkans and Russia. (Also note how the absence of Christian extremists is compared to wars fought by Muslims, period.)

(On an aside, I find it kind of sad to see Lash deteriorate into calling the Bosnian and Kosovo wars, which I suppose is what she means by "Balkans States (SE Europe)", part of "their CURRENT attempted conquests." Yep, thats what those Muslims of Srebrenica were doing - conquering Christian countries.)

Anyways, lets play the game along.

These are the wars being fought by Christians.
Right now. (Well, in 2004.)

Colombia
Sudan
Congo
Angola
Burundi
Ivory Coast
Kenya
Liberia
Uganda (eg "Resistance Army of the Lord", no less)
Nigeria
Zimbabwe
Georgia
Serbia/Kosovo
Russia
Iraq
Philippines

and dont forget, not too long ago, Rwanda ...

(Sources: BBC: This World; Armed Conflict Report 2004)

Not specifically religious wars, you say? Most of em ethnically or politically motivated? The Christians weren't the agressors?

Did Lash take any such considerations into account in her list? No, so apples and apples we'll compare.

Funny how you can make these kind of arguments, eh?

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On a note of process, by the way, watch this:

Lash wrote:

JTT wrote:
woiyo wrote:
In the past 100 years, I do not recall "christians" acting the way ther Islamics are acting today. Thousands of years ago...yes. [..]

Short and convenient memories, ... again, Woiyo, Lash, McG, ...

Quote:

Lynchings in America [by "christians"]
http://www.liu.edu/cwis/cwp/library/african/2000/lynching.htm

[..]

Again, JTT, you can take that crap back in time when it happened. We are talking about the here and now.

Woiyo makes a statement (no Christians acting that way "in the past 100 years"). JTT corrects it (gives examples). Lash calls it "crap" thats irrelevant.

<scratches head>

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Lash wrote:

The hierarchy of the Christian religion DOES NOT condone murder in the name of their religion. Yes or no
4) Yes. Neither of the broad branches of Christianity (Catholic or Protestant) condone murder. However, to think that the stance of Sunni or Shi'ite religion condone terrorism is a misinformed and ignorant statement.
Many religious leaders of Islam openly applaud murder in the name of Islam and their god. Such behavior in Christianity would be condemned, roundly.
There are Islamic religious leaders, who DO CONDONE murder in the name of their religion. Yes or no.
5) Yes. And their are Christian leaders who condone murder, terrorism, and war. I mentioned two such orginizations above. You ignored them but you cannot. They kill and terrorize thousands...worldwide.
Name them. Name the Christian leaders who condone murder in the name of Christ or the Christian church who have not been rebuked by the church hierarchy.

Whats going on here is another serious mixing up of categories to suit one's arguments.

The two original questions are clear enough:

1) Does the hierarchy of the Christian/Muslim religion condone murder in the name of their religion?
2) Are there individual Christian/Islamic religious leaders, who DO condone murder in the name of their religion?

TTF answered, in summary:

1) No, the hierarchy of the Christian religion does not condone it; neither can the Sunni or Shi'ite top leaders be said to condone it.
2) Yes, there are both individual Christian and Muslim religious leaders who do condone it (and he did mention examples - look up info about Uganda to see what he's talking about).

Lash answered, in turn:

1) Err, nothing on the first count actually. Instead she conveniently skipped to the answer to the second count: yes, "many moslim religious leaders applaud murder". And "such behavior in Christianity would be condemned, roundly."
2) See above for Muslims; Cant think of any "Christian leaders who condone murder in the name of Christ or the Christian church who have not been rebuked by the church hierarchy". (Note how the definition of the question is suddenly expanded here).

So, to get the tables equal again, what should we compare?

On the first count - well, neither Protestant nor Muslim religions have a Pope. So you just have to go by rank. What has the highest-ranking Muslim clergy said about murdering in the name of Allah?

On the second count, either we are comparing "religious leaders who applaud murder", period (in which case you can find many Muslim leaders, but also a number of Christian leaders); or we are comparing "religious leaders who condone murder who have not been rebuked by the church hierarchy". This actually works better for the Muslims, since the terrorism such as we saw in London, Madrid, etc is of course "roundly condemned" in Islam as well - see the many condemnations by Muslim leaders and spokespersons.

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Attack in London Today

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