0
   

Attack in London Today

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 06:55 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Quote:
Your implication that 9/11, embassy bombings, etc. were warranted by our actions

Just freakin amazing.

Thanks for your non-argument. Are you incapable of expressing your points clearly and offering supporting evidence for them? Your post amounts essentially to name calling. You have proven nothing whatever nor even offered a plausibility argument for your viewpoint.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 07:23 pm
Actually Brandon I am mostly just stunned that you could derive your above posted conclusion from statements I have made. I have never "implied" that "9/11, embassy bombings, etc. were warranted by our actions". What I have stated (not implied) is that the Bush agenda re Iraq and billed as "war on terrorism" has been a consistent failure and has had the opposite effect of subduing terrorism resulting in an increase rather than a decrease in terrorism. I realize, as Reagan once said "facts are stupid things' however they continue to plague stupid agendas. Perhaps you have heard, there is a war going on and the enemy is fighting back, though bastards they may be, they are continuing to fight back and I see no forecast of abatement. They will fight back where ever and however they see the possiblity be it London or Madrid or Chicago but mostly in Baghdad. That's why it's called "war."
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 07:30 pm
1.
dyslexia wrote:
"It is not caving in to the bees to stop poking a stick into their hive."


2. It's not caving in to terrorists to stop annoying them.

3. If we stop annoying the terrorists, maybe we will not have any more problem with them.

4. If we stop annoying the terrorists, they may stop attacking us.

5. The terrorist attacks were at least partially caused by us annoying them.

QED
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 07:41 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
5. The terrorist attacks were at least partially caused by us annoying them.

QED


No, not necessarily QED . . . but it is certainly true that prior to the end of the first Gulf War, bin Laden maintained a distant yet definite loyalty to those who had funded his "base," which is what al Qaeda means in Arabic. Which is to say, he kept a loose sort of faith with the United States for having supported the mujahadin in Afghanistan. He was willing, in fact, to operate within Iraq against the Ba'atists, whose "socialism" was anathema to him. Read his writings sometime, he invariably refers to the Iraqi regime as "the Socialists," and does so contemptuously. After all, they persecuted the Wahabbis, his sectarian co-religionists.

But after the Gulf War, Pappy Bush jerked the carpet out from under the Shi'ite uprising, and bin Laden is sympathetic to the Shi'ites for religious reasons. Additionally, the emergency being over, "infidel" troops remained in Saudia Arabia, which was an affront to bin Laden's religious sensibilities. He publicly complained about it, and was ignored. So he organized, using methods taught him by the CIA, and attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. It's been downhill ever since.

So your statement is incorrect only in that the terrorist attacks against the United States or American interests organized by al Qaea were largely a result of our actions.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 07:43 pm
I thought it was an interesting quote Brandon which is why I put it in quotes. I got it from Ron Paul the very very conservative Congressman from Texas. I don't know who said it originally or I would have cited him/her. Perhaps you think I implied it to be a "liberal" observation. Ask yourself this question. "if I thought the statement was from a conservative rather than a liberal would I have read into it a different meaning?"
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 09:37 pm
We want to preserve our way of life, sticking our stick wherever the hell we want to stick it. After all, this is America, god-damn it. If those places where we stick our stick turn out to be problematical, we'll just torch 'em, and destroy 'em in their entirety. We'll then merely call it "peace," and "the ideology of hope and compassion."
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jul, 2005 11:25 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
We want to preserve our way of life, sticking our stick wherever the hell we want to stick it. After all, this is America, god-damn it. If those places where we stick our stick turn out to be problematical, we'll just torch 'em, and destroy 'em in their entirety. We'll then merely call it "peace," and "the ideology of hope and compassion."

If an evil madman is developing weapons, as Hussein did, even one single one of which can kill hundreds of thousands, we had better be absolutely certain he has abandoned them. To do less would be suicide. And the next time someone of the caliber of a Hitler, Hussein, or Pol Pot has developed WMD and we are uncertain whether they are destroyed or only hidden, we will be back in just the same position. Please go on to make your expected comment about North Korea.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 01:04 am
Brandon9000 wrote:

If an evil madman is developing weapons, as Hussein did, even one single one of which can kill hundreds of thousands, we had better be absolutely certain he has abandoned them. To do less would be suicide. And the next time someone of the caliber of a Hitler, Hussein, or Pol Pot has developed WMD and we are uncertain whether they are destroyed or only hidden, we will be back in just the same position. Please go on to make your expected comment about North Korea.


There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of ever changing one whose thinking is so delusional.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 06:09 am
It was sticking a stick in their hive to go into a country that was not part of 9/11 and invade it. That wrongheaded action took the moral high ground away from the US that we had after 9/11 and the terrorist used it to their advantage. We should have kept our eyes on the ball rather than tearing off into another direction.

I believe that was dys's point. Of course people interpret anything that isn't just a blind gung ho charge after anything Muslim as a terrorist apologist.
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 06:26 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
thethinkfactory wrote:
I think it makes sense to downsize our old ungodly large weapons that are outdates and a huge drain to our economy (11 billion annually).

I am far less concerned about us disarming than I am about the fact that more and less stable countries are acquiring WMD every year. Sooner or later, we are going to have a WMD event in some population center and hundreds of thousands of people will be dead.


1) I want to thank you for your even candor. This is a tough forum to have a level discussion in - I even feel the need to be cynical. I like that we can stay cool.

2) The U.S. is the only one to use WMD's. (atleast nuclear WMD's)
3) There is a LOT of good evidence the the chemical weapons used on Iraqi's by Saddam were supplied against us to be used against the Irani's.
4) We LOVE to trade weapons for favors or what have you (See Iran Contra - Not WMD's but you see my point.)
5) Isn't it the same childish response of "Do as I say not as a I do." coupled with a big PILE of Hubris to state that WE can be trusted but no other nation can, because they are unstable? Do we decide stability? If America was just breaking away from Britain at this time in history, wouldn't we be scrambling for a weapon powerful enough to stop our oppressors?

It just seems so backwards and cocksure to claim that we can have them, and we decide who else does? We might be a becon of freedom but I do not think we are the judge of it.

TTF
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 06:30 am
Okay - back on topic:

It appears that this work (Today's New York Times) of sloppy people. They are thinking a inexperience "sleeper" cell of terrorists.

I will wait until further information before I comment more directly on the link between these idiots and Iraq or Muslim extremists.

These types are definitly NOT the ones blowing up people in Iraq (Thank God - or a LOT more would be dead).

TTF
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 09:13 am
If these ones aren't, the next ones may well be:

Quote:
Next Time

We also don't know what relationship these terrorists have to what remains of the pre-9/11 Al Qaeda command apparatus; but chances are that the murderers responsible didn't take any orders from Osama bin Laden. Much more likely is the possibility that, as is believed about the culprits of the Madrid attacks last year, the London murderers planned, recruited for, and executed the bombings independently. If such "self-activation" is, as terrorism experts believe, the next step of jihadist progress, it raises the disturbing prospect that future attacks against the West will be carried out by those who have gained a wealth of experience fighting U.S. forces in Iraq's western, Sunni-dominated Anbar province--the premier location for on-the-job terrorist training on the planet. The CIA calls this the "class of '05 problem." Such future attacks may very well make yesterday's carnage seem amateurish in scale. [..]

The 9/11 hijackers [..] had the benefit of the Afghan camps, where they drew on the experience of jihadist masterminds like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. [Now,] Iraq is closing the loop between terrorist desire and terrorist ability. David Low, a senior U.S. intelligence official, recently observed to Dana Priest of The Washington Post that Iraq provides "a training ground, a recruitment ground, the opportunity for enhancing technical skills" to jihadists. In other words, a Parisian or Milanese jihadist wannabe can now learn online which mosque in Syria to visit in order to meet the right middleman to smuggle him into Iraq, where Anbar province-based terrorist cells are eager for new recruits. Once in Iraq, he can learn all about remote-detonated improvised explosive devices and urban combat--extremely valuable skills for him to take back home, where he can pass them along to his associates. In May, classified CIA and State Department analyses warned about the serious threat that such terrorist "bleed out" from Iraq poses to U.S. national security.

Already, according to Knight Ridder, tactics used by insurgents in Iraq are showing up in places like Afghanistan, where there has been a recent upsurge in Al Qaeda and Taliban attacks. It may only be a matter of time before they show up in Europe--and, eventually, here in the United States. Last year in Madrid and, most likely, yesterday in London, we saw what destruction jihadists without Iraq experience can inflict; those with Anbar province on their resumes can almost certainly do worse.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 09:26 am
If nimh's scenario takes place (the one described in his article), it is highly likely IMO that you will live through a McCarthy-ist world never before imagined.

People complain NOW about the suspected guilt of "living while Arab".... They (Muslims and Arabs) and all of us had better do whatever we can to stop this brand of terrorism-- If you don't like the Patriot Act, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Have you heard that the British are constantly photographing it's citizens in a VERY aggressive anti-terrorism program--and that his has been going on for quite a while? I only heard it on the telly. I'll look around to se if that is accurate.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 09:34 am
Except the NYT says the Euros haven't been whacked by the cluebat...yet.




Despite Terror, Europeans Seem Determined to Maintain Civil Liberties

By RICHARD BERNSTEIN
BERLIN, July 8 - From the 9/11 attacks through the Madrid bombings, Europeans have refused to sacrifice civil liberties in the fight against terrorism, sharply criticizing the United States for restricting its citizens' rights for the sake of security. Even with the London attacks, there is little indication that this philosophical divide is narrowing.

Certainly some European counterterrorism experts believe that Europe's determination to preserve open borders, ease of movement and civil liberties has been what one German expert on terrorism, Rolf Tophoven, calls "a gift to terrorists." It is all too easy for jihadists, once they are inside the European Union, to move from one country to another, the experts say, propagating their views and setting up groups sympathetic to Al Qaeda.

But from the early signs, Europe will not change course.

"I don't think the attack in London will change European policies," Mr. Tophoven said.

For one thing, it is too early to make the case that the London attacks were the product of open borders or too much tolerance of fanatical Muslim activity in Britain.

"If it turns out that the guys who did this were carrying French passports and they came from outside to do this special job, then there may be some feeling about the borders being too open," Gary Samore, a terrorism expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, in London, said in a telephone interview. Investigators, though, lean toward the theory that the London attacks were the work of terrorists already in Britain.

In general, Mr. Samore said, British police intelligence has been very good at keeping tabs on Muslim radicals inside Britain and has succeeded in foiling earlier terrorist plots.

"MI5 has very good relations with the British Muslim community, and it's developed a good network of informants, and they've penetrated the radical groups," Mr. Samore said, referring to the British domestic intelligence service.

Without more evidence it is impossible to know if there was a failure to gather intelligence on groups in Britain, or whether outsiders aided or directed the attacks, going to the country for that purpose.

But whichever turns out to be the case, experts say, radical Muslim communities have been established in several European countries since well before the current wave of Al Qaeda-inspired attacks, and that makes the situation in Europe different from that in the United States.

For the United States, there was a logic to the post-Sept. 11 toughening of immigration procedures, subjecting foreigners to rigorous questioning, general suspicion and even fingerprinting, which has prompted great unhappiness among European visitors. For Europe, with a sizable radical Muslim population already in place, it makes far less sense.

If potential terrorists are already inside the country, then the best way to prevent terrorism is to do what Britain was already doing, which is to keep close tabs on them.

As in the United States, there is a debate in Europe about the relative weight that needs to be given to civil liberties on the one side and law enforcement on the other. But Europeans are generally more inclined to err on the side of civil protections, because they are convinced that taking too severe a line only makes matters worse.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict further divides European and American attitudes. Europeans are far more sympathetic to the Palestinians and prone to anti-Israel attitudes than Americans, and they have therefore tended to see a certain kind of Muslim radical oratory as the natural response of peoples with legitimate grievances.

By and large, Europeans oppose the American war in Iraq, which many say is responsible for increasing the terrorist threat against them. Political leaders in Europe diplomatically avoid criticizing the United States, but it has surely not been lost on ordinary Europeans that the countries attacked, and threatened by attack, are those that have supported the American war in Iraq.

"What we are witnessing in London is the terrorist answer to an imperialist politics," Ernst-Otto Czempiel, a political scientist at Frankfurt University and founder of the Frankfurt Peace Research Institute, said in an interview, giving voice to a widespread European opinion.

"To use military force against terrorism and to see it as a prolongation of the Soviet Union or of Hitlerian aggression is not only wrong politically but wrong practically," Mr. Czempiel said. "Bush has produced the opposite of what he intended to do."

In European intelligence circles, the fear is spreading that Iraq is becoming another Afghanistan, drawing in jihadists who receive training in bomb-making and other terrorist techniques and then infiltrate Western countries, Mr. Tophoven said. "There aren't a lot of them, not even hundreds," he said, "but a few of them are enough to cause harm."

The debate about civil liberties versus strong, intrusive security measures is not restricted only to Europe, of course. In Washington, President Bush is pressing Congress to renew the USA Patriot Act, the broad anti-terrorism law that was passed in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks. But the measure has run into roadblocks on Capitol Hill.

The reauthorization bill has yet to come to a vote in either chamber. But last month the House approved a spending measure that stripped the act of a provision making it easier for federal investigators to review the records of bookstores and libraries.

European countries have passed no equivalents of the Patriot Act, but they can nonetheless claim considerable success for their reliance on ordinary police work and intelligence, despite the Madrid and London bombings.

The British police claim to have derailed several previous bomb plots. And in Germany, radical Muslims are under close surveillance, their homes, offices and computers subject to searches by the police in regular raids. Some organizations suspected of fanning hatred have been banned, and a few suspected extremists have been expelled.

Moreover, Germany is the only country to bring people accused of being members of the Sept. 11 terrorism team to trial. But both cases have foundered, not because of some excessive civil liberties scruples on the part of the Germans, but because the United States refused to provide records of its interrogations of terrorist leaders.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/international/europe/09liberties.html
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 09:41 am
Quote:
Despite Terror, Europeans Seem Determined to Maintain Civil Liberties

How UnAmerican of them!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 09:44 am
They may not know how their liberties have been affected.

They are on-line for a national ID card, and may be under surveillance....
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 09:46 am
Lash wrote:
They may not know how their liberties have been affected.

They are on-line for a national ID card, and may be under surveillance....

Ok, so they are more american than I gave them credit for.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 09:52 am
'Pears so.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 12:06 pm
JTT wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

If an evil madman is developing weapons, as Hussein did, even one single one of which can kill hundreds of thousands, we had better be absolutely certain he has abandoned them. To do less would be suicide. And the next time someone of the caliber of a Hitler, Hussein, or Pol Pot has developed WMD and we are uncertain whether they are destroyed or only hidden, we will be back in just the same position. Please go on to make your expected comment about North Korea.


There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of ever changing one whose thinking is so delusional.

And the delusion is what, specifically?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2005 12:11 pm
thethinkfactory wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
thethinkfactory wrote:
I think it makes sense to downsize our old ungodly large weapons that are outdates and a huge drain to our economy (11 billion annually).

I am far less concerned about us disarming than I am about the fact that more and less stable countries are acquiring WMD every year. Sooner or later, we are going to have a WMD event in some population center and hundreds of thousands of people will be dead.


1) I want to thank you for your even candor. This is a tough forum to have a level discussion in - I even feel the need to be cynical. I like that we can stay cool.

2) The U.S. is the only one to use WMD's. (atleast nuclear WMD's)
3) There is a LOT of good evidence the the chemical weapons used on Iraqi's by Saddam were supplied against us to be used against the Irani's.
4) We LOVE to trade weapons for favors or what have you (See Iran Contra - Not WMD's but you see my point.)
5) Isn't it the same childish response of "Do as I say not as a I do." coupled with a big PILE of Hubris to state that WE can be trusted but no other nation can, because they are unstable? Do we decide stability? If America was just breaking away from Britain at this time in history, wouldn't we be scrambling for a weapon powerful enough to stop our oppressors?

It just seems so backwards and cocksure to claim that we can have them, and we decide who else does? We might be a becon of freedom but I do not think we are the judge of it.

TTF

Bioweapons are illegal altogether. As for nukes, we're not saying that no one else can have nukes except us. We're saying that of all the entities who do wish or will wish to acquire them, there are a few at the extreme evil dictator end of the spectrum who must be stopped from acquiring them.

Yes, we are the only country to have used nukes in battle, but what does that have to do with the future?
0 Replies
 
 

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