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Attack in London Today

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 01:41 am
Quote:
Hear the true voices of Islam

Young, disenfranchised Muslims can only be reached by those they respect


Abdul-Rehman Malik
Sunday July 24, 2005
The Observer

Last week's meeting between the Prime Minister and 'moderate' Muslim leaders had all the appearance of an emergency synod - holy, serious and urgent. Noble intentions tumbled from the lips of the handpicked guests as they marched to duty. After an hour-long session, they emerged to announce the creation of a task force charged with tackling the 'evil ideology' of militant Islam, combating social exclusion and encouraging political engagement.
A tall order. Most young Muslims in Leeds, Oldham or other towns have never heard of the people the Prime Minister asked to speak in their name.

Furthermore, most of the titular leaders who gathered last Tuesday represent only fragments of a complex community - 56 ethnicities speaking almost 100 languages, by one count. Most are at their best when condemning terrorism. Few have been able to put forward a vision of British Islam that is convincing to the most marginalised, disadvantaged and prone to militancy. It's not a question of whether they deserve a voice at the table, but whether they are trusted by the Muslims they claim to speak for.

It is foolish to speak of a 'Muslim community' as if it were undifferentiated and homogeneous. In towns like Oldham, there are parallel communities - Pakistani and Bangladeshi, divided along ethnic and sectarian lines. How can any organisation claim to represent both communities nationally, when they are divided locally? Well-publicised visits to Leeds in the aftermath of the bombings to meet still more community representatives cannot make up for regular, sustained contact with Muslim communities at street level.

Even last week's welcome fatwas against terrorist violence should be regarded with caution. Fatwas are non-binding opinions and most imams in Britain do not have the power to interpret doctrine. Mosques have little actual authority in the lives of ordinary Muslims and the edicts of imams can be ignored or followed as Muslims wish. With most mosques not accessible to women and with more young people, like the bombers, seeking guidance outside them, Britain's mosques are caught in a crisis of relevance.

It is the street-level voluntary and community sector organisations that represent the British Islam's hidden civil society, working to meet the needs of neighbourhoods struggling with violence, drug abuse and teenage pregnancy. These are the front lines of the fight against militancy and desperation.

Muslims who think that the recent attacks have nothing to do with Islam are simply in denial. Since the 1960s, a literalist, puritanical form of Islam has been gaining ground in Britain. Well funded and promoted in slickly produced manuals of 'correct' doctrine and 'authentic' practice, this aberrant theology saw to remove the celebration of difference and flexibility of law that lies at the heart of Islam's classical past. Gone were the interpretive ambiguities, replaced by certainties of right and wrong, good Muslim and bad.

It was under the watch of Muslim organisations that this form of Islam became increasingly popular and mainstream. The deteriorating political situation of the Muslim world, coupled with the rise of, at first largely peaceful, Islamist movements, has added a dangerous dimension to this reformist Islam.

Spurred by strident religious tracts and dreams of a utopian Islamic state, some doctrinal zealots have turned their thoughts to the ummah, the global Muslim community, seen not as a spiritual brotherhood, but reimagined as a political one in opposition to an immoral, imperialist and decadent West. Such literalism allowed for a hatred of 'the other' that was hitherto unknown in Muslim civilisation.

On this point, Blair is right: Muslims do need to confront militant ideologies, but politicians should be careful before putting fingers in Islam's theological pie. It was Ronald Reagan's policies in the 1980s that strengthened Afghanistan's mujahideen, through their Arab backers, many of whom promoted a violent brand of Islamic liberation theology that eventually spawned al-Qaeda.

British Muslims need honest dialogue - theological, political and social. Curtailing civil liberties is the worst thing to do now. Even if what militant preachers say is unpalatable, trying to silence them would push them and their followers further underground. To be successful, a 'task force' must be independent of Downing Street's vision of what British Islam should look like. At present, it is a reactionary, undefined body with little goodwill outside the groups and organisations already involved. Many Muslims, particularly those the task force is trying to reach, will regard such an exercise as a public relations stunt with little relevance.

If the government is to tackle the problems of extremism, social exclusion and lack of civic participation, it has to reframe the work of this group as a Royal Commission, answerable to parliament. Such a commission must be open to all who have a stake in British Islam. The participation of people like Bolton boxing hero Amir Khan and singer-songwriter and peace activist Yusuf Islam would energise the process. They may not represent anyone in particular, but they are widely respected for their achievements. A truly legitimate commission would pull people out of the grassroots, those with a track record of necessary, meaningful and creative work.

A few months ago, groups like the MCB would have dismissed claims that angry, globalised and ideologically hardened Muslim men could potentially become terrorists carrying out attacks on British soil. Now, its leadership is going to great lengths to sound as if they were trying to prevent these terrible attacks all along.

No one group should bear the burden of representing the unrepresentable. If the government wants to eradicate the causes of terror through a battle of hearts and minds, then it will not waste time with figureheads. It must get into the inner cities and join grassroots workers in their struggle to put Muslim Britain right.

· Abdul-Rehman Malik is Contributing Editor for Q-News, The Muslim Magazine ([email protected])
Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 05:11 am
Quote:
This is
LONDON
24/07/05 - News section

'More could be shot' - Met chief



Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair has admitted further people could be shot as detectives hunt down the would-be suicide bombers who tried to bring further carnage to London last week.

His comments followed the fatal shooting of innocent Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, who was killed by undercover police officers on Friday morning as he tried to board a Tube train at Stockwell, south London.

Sir Ian admitted there was a "shoot-to-kill policy" for tackling suicide bombers and it would not change, although the death of Mr de Menezes was a "tragedy".

"Somebody else could be shot. But everything is done to make it right," Sir Ian told Sunday with Adam Boulton on Sky News.

"This is a terrifying set of circumstances for individuals to make decisions."

Sir Ian defended the actions of his officers, saying: "What we have got to recognise is that people are taking incredibly difficult fast time decisions in life threatening situations.

"It wasn't just a random event and what's most important to recognise is that it's still happening out there. There are still officers out there having to make those calls as we speak."

He said Mr de Menezes had emerged from a "not very large" block of flats which had been under surveillance before he was followed to Stockwell station.

The shoot-to-kill procedures for dealing with suicide bombers would remain in place. "They have to be that because there is no point in shooting at someone's chest because that is where the bomb is likely to be," he said.

"There is no point in shooting anywhere else if they fall down and detonate it. It is drawn from experience from other countries, including Sri Lanka. The only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head."
Source
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 06:32 am
That shooting is so tragic.

The price of doing business when everyone is terrified for thier security - freedoms tend to decrease.

We know it is a policy that will not work and is exactly what the terrorists want - but we do it anyway.

It blows my mind (no pun intended) that we respond to terrorism by 'shoot for the head first ask questions later'.

Why are we so willing to stoop?


TTF
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jul, 2005 06:14 pm
I find the comments about "policy" mystifying. The law hasn't been changed in the UK - that I know of anyway - to allow government or chief police officers to issue instructions to individual police officers that says "there is a shoot to kill policy in place now".

In this instance what will happen is that it will be investigated by at least one independent agency and the evidence will be considered by the prosecuting authorities and there may be a prosecution for some form of homicide. The defendant police officer will then have to defend against those charges using the conventional legal defences available to anyone charged with murder or manslaughter. No statement of policy from the PM or the Commissioner of the Met Police will render an instant defence to that officer on trial. True, such statements will boslter the case for the defence as they are evidence which touches on the circumstances under which the officer made his or her decision. But make no mistake, it is the individual who will be judged, not Tony Blair or Ian Blair.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 01:05 am
I very rarely agree with the conservative Times, doubt, if ever their opinion.

But this is nearly exactly my opinion as well (about the shooting only):


Quote:
Opinion - Tim Hames
July 25, 2005

Oops, sorry, won't do.
We can't just shrug our shoulders over this shooting
Tim Hames



THE POLICE, according to a Sunday newspaper yesterday, fear a "backlash in the Muslim community" after the fatal shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent Brazilian electrician, at Stockwell Tube station on Friday. What the police should fear is a backlash from the entire civilised community. Yet there is no evidence that either the politicians or the public will provide it. The theme has been that this was a tragic "mistake", but one which was unavoidable, even inevitable, in the current climate.
The breadth of the coalition of "Oh dear, but . . . " in this instance is astonishing. Ken Livingstone, the Mayor of London, who can normally be relied on for controversy, has declined to condemn either the specifics of this event or the shoot-to-kill strategy behind it. The Liberal Democrats, whose purpose in life, surely, is to defend civil rights in difficult times, are similarly reticent. Muslim Labour MPs, such as Khalid Mahmood have urged caution. Even Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, has given warning against a "rush to judgment". It has been left to the Brazilian Government to express anger about the manner in which Mr Menezes died.

It should not be angry alone. I am a hardliner on the War on Terror and remain a hawk on the invasion of Iraq and its aftermath. But if al-Qaeda has created an atmosphere in which an ordinary person can have five bullets pumped into him by the police, and society shrugs its shoulders, then the terrorists have already won a modest victory.

The inconsistency bordering on callousness of Scotland Yard has been breathtaking. It was initially suggested that Mr Menezes was under surveillance and had been approached after he walked from his residence in Stockwell to the Tube station. It is now clear that he started his trip from Tulse Hill, where he had stayed at someone else's home, was watched, was noted wearing bulky clothing, yet was allowed (despite the slaughter at Tavistock Square on July 7 and the attempted blast on a double-decker at Hackney last Thursday) to board a bus for a 15-minute journey and was challenged only when he sought to buy an Underground ticket. Why was someone whom the police continue to insist was a "potential suicide-bomber" no menace on the No 2 bus, but an urgent threat who had to be taken out when moving in the direction of the Northern Line?

And then there was the attempt to "spin" this situation to suit the police immediately after the shooting. It must have been obvious within minutes that the man concerned had no explosives on him and it is highly likely that he had identifying documentation. Yet for hours on Friday police sources were briefing that this shooting was "directly connected" to their inquiries into the botched bombings of July 21 and over the weekend the implication rumbled on that he had lived in, or perhaps near, or somewhere quite close to, multi-occupancy accommodation that had been deemed "suspicious".

This attempt to blame Mr Menezes for his own death continues unabated. It was hinted that he might have been an illegal immigrant, as if that justifies what occurred. It has been argued that it was "irresponsible" of him to wear a quilted jacket in July, as if that were a crime. There are, furthermore, "no excuses", it is intoned, for the fact that he ran when armed plainclothed police officers shouted at him.

I don't know about you, but if I found myself minding my own business on the São Paulo metro and was suddenly confronted by men wearing no uniforms but wielding weapons, screaming at me in Portuguese, I too might choose to bolt for it. It was not merely the police but their victim who had to make a split-second decision.

At a minimum, the Metropolitan Police should be expressing something a little stronger than "regret" and admitting unambiguous, if partially understandable, responsibility for this outrage. Yet the spirit in which they are operating was summed up by Lord Stevens, the former Commissioner of the Met, in his News of the World column yesterday. Now Sir John Stevens, as he was, was an admirable public servant and he does make a number of compelling points about the pressure that the police are under and the unique dangers posed by suicide bombers. Even so, to dismiss this death as an "error" that should not result in the shoot-to-kill policy being reviewed verges on the sadistic. "My heart goes out," Lord Stevens wrote, not to the Menezes family, but to "the officer who killed the man in Stockwell Tube Station." Well, up to a point, Lord Copper.

There should be three consequences of this terrible tragedy. The first is that every aspect of the investigation that will be conducted by the Independent Police Complaints Commission should be published. There must not be the slightest possibility that the Metropolitan Police might be covering up its embarrassment by, for example, citing "operational reasons" why the decisions taken last Friday morning cannot be scrutinised. The second is that the shoot-to-kill policy has to be re-examined. There is a world of difference between a plainclothes policeman finding himself riding on the Tube and spotting a man with a large bag behaving in a manner that makes him a potential suicide bomber and shooting him, and chasing a person on to a train carriage and firing at him.

The final and most important aspect relates to Mr Menezes and his loved ones. This man was, in effect, as much a victim of the London bombs of July 7 as those who died then. It is inconceivable that he would have been killed by the police if those terrorist atrocities had not happened. His name should be included among those who will be supported by the fund that was set up to help those left behind after those murders. We must be honest about how his awful death took place and be ready to learn the lessons.
source
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 03:59 am
There are a couple of points in that op-ed I can agree with. The general thrust of it though - no.

But let me put another (I suppose the writer might say "spin" on it) view. While this is a terrible tragedy I'm glad I'm not reading an op-ed piece that condemns the police for not taking decisive action to stop a suicide bomber who was able, despite being under surveillance by police and being pursued, to get onto a tube train, detonate his bomb and kill scores of people.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 04:27 am
Lash wrote:
...but not to be outdone, the press blames the Jews...

Wait. The former police chief tries to excuse the man's shooting by referring to his former men's training in Israel, and that translates to "the press blaming the Jews"?

Lash wrote:
But former London police chief John Stevens defended the tactics.

"I sent teams to Israel and other countries hit by suicide bombers where we learned a terrible truth," he wrote in the News of the World.

"There is only one sure way to stop a suicide bomber determined to fulfil his mission -- destroy his brain instantly, utterly. That means shooting him with devastating power in the head, killing him immediately."
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 04:34 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
Yeah really, ranks right up there with Jerry Falwell.


The ever glib dyslexia wades in.

Yours is a classic non-sequitor, unless, of course, you can provide evidence for the notion that Lash, Just Wonders or myself find Falwell the epitome of truth and wisdom.

Your penchant for one-liners has a hit rate of about 8% dys, and this one fell far off the mark.


Certainly, I'm sure you don't agree with me, but when I read dyslexia's sentence, I thought he was referring to Omar's words a few posts up. Of course, dys should really have made it more clear to whom he was referring.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 05:13 am
the phone in question this morning was "do you agree with the police shoot to kill policy"

to which I ask who?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 05:22 am
There are about 20,000 young disaffected Muslim men and boys in the UK who's ideas might cause them to be dangerous.

fortunately via the 2000 census, we know more or less who they are and where they live. We need to further identify this group and require them to make a declaration in the name of Islam and everything that is dear to them, that Islam is a peaceful religion, and that putting bombs on a tube train is un Islamic, the consequences of which is a reserved place in hell not heaven.

And if they wont give that declaration, intern them.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 05:26 am
Something from the 1930's comes to mind here
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 06:03 am
we invented concentration camps for the Boers. And used them again against the IRA. This is much more serious.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 06:25 am
Tolerance vs. terrorism

Shehzad Tanweer was the bright, Muslim son of a first-generation Pakistani immigrant in Britain. His father owned a fish-and-chips shop, and Tanweer, at 22, was a university student headed for a profession - the kind of story of immigrant assimilation that is so familiar in America. Instead, Tanweer became a murderer, killing himself and other fellow travelers in the morning rush hour on London's Underground. Muhammad Bouyeri, born in the Netherlands, shot Theo Van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker and a descendant of the painter, six times while Van Gogh was bicycling in Amsterdam. Then he cut Van Gogh's throat and, with his knife, carved an Islamic manifesto on his victim's chest. Van Gogh's offense? He made a film about the oppression of Muslim women. In his trial, Bouyeri turned to Van Gogh's grieving mother to say, "I don't feel your pain. I have to admit that I don't feel sympathy for you. I can't feel for you because you're a nonbeliever."

The outrages committed in the name of Islam are doubly painful in Britain and the Netherlands because, besides the grief and suffering these young Muslim men have caused, there is the viciousness of their betrayal of trust in these notably - perhaps one should say excessively - tolerant European countries.

These are the same nations that gave many Muslim immigrants a new start, nurtured their children as Britons and Netherlanders, and listened courteously to the venom of militant Muslim leaders who, like Tanweer and Bouyeri, had assumed the mantle of citizenship.

Now, the British, the Dutch and other European countries must confront the reality of homegrown terrorists in their midst - a more daunting challenge than dealing with infiltrators from abroad.

Economic deprivation does not explain this phenomenon. These killers are relatively well-off, educated people, not the indigent and the uneducated. Second- and third-generation Muslim immigrants may be even more radicalized than the first, a lost generation vulnerable to anyone who offers them an identity within the wholly imaginary community of their own Islamifascist creeds.

This malignancy predates Iraq, Afghanistan, 9/11 and the Bush administration. Militant British Muslims have blamed everything and everybody except themselves, conveniently overlooking the obscenity that it is fanatical Muslims inspired by them who are doing the killing.

In Britain today, there is broad public support for a crackdown. Such a move is more than justified. Britain has provided asylum to so many extremist Muslims that London has become the headquarters of Islamifascism in Europe. The list of terrorists coming out of London is quite extensive, including Richard Reid, the convicted shoe bomber; Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, who orchestrated the 2002 beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl; and the British bomber who walked into a popular Tel Aviv pub and killed three and wounded 60.

The aspiration of these radical Muslims is to make Islam the world's dominant religion. With 20 million Muslims in Europe, a population likely to double over the next 20 years, national borders are no defense against the insidious ideology of radical Islam.

What should America do?


First, we must tighten our scrutiny of people coming here. Most second-generation European Muslims are citizens of the European Union and, as such, eligible for U.S. visa waivers, which permit them to pass through U.S. immigration checkpoints easily. Greater scrutiny of such visitors is needed immediately.




Second, we must harden our determination not to compromise with Muslim terrorism or explain it away by any mealy-mouthed "understanding" of it. "Explanations" of terrorism are unforgivable. It isn't war; it's murder. Terrorists aren't soldiers; they're criminals.


Third, we must increase security funding for public transport by land, rail and buses, where 16 times as many people travel every day as they do in airplanes. This must be done on a risk-based formula, as supported by the 9/11 commission - not as another pork-barrel program for greedy congressmen.


Fourth, we must invest more in intelligence and revise overly restrictive rules on its dissemination and use. Today, we face a threat to the most fundamental values of our free and democratic way of life. In this modern version of the Thirty Years' War, there is only one objective: We must prevent the 21st century from becoming the century of terrorism.

OP article from NY daily news
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 06:31 am
I don't know, au1929, I think we should save a lot of time and shoot them all down" like the dogs they are" and worry about asking questions or coming to other solutions later.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 06:34 am
goodfielder wrote:
There are a couple of points in that op-ed I can agree with. The general thrust of it though - no.

But let me put another (I suppose the writer might say "spin" on it) view. While this is a terrible tragedy I'm glad I'm not reading an op-ed piece that condemns the police for not taking decisive action to stop a suicide bomber who was able, despite being under surveillance by police and being pursued, to get onto a tube train, detonate his bomb and kill scores of people.


I cannot agree with this at all. Firing weapons in a crowded place is extremely dangerous with the best trained people, and failure to have actually killed a suicide bomber would not have prevented the bombing--and i say this in the context of the revelation that he was tailed, having boarded a crosstown bus. If the reasons for supposing him to be a bomber were so compelling that the police think they can justify shooting him in a crowded subway station, why the hell weren't those reasons just as compelling when he cued to get on a bus?

This whole thing stinks, and despite your professional contacts, in fact, because of them, you should see that. This incident was mismanaged from start to finish.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 06:36 am
Well, seems as if the Brazilian had an expired visa, which would probably explain why he was running away:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 06:39 am
Just to dismiss muslim anger as an expression of their desire to take over the world is fatuous.

We are at war with a very dangerous and insidious enemy who think they are doing Gods will by killing us.

But the REASON why they think this way is prompted by 60 years or more of Western meddling and interference in Middle Eastern countries over OIL and American support for ISRAEL.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 07:15 am
Steve wrote
Quote:
Just to dismiss Muslim anger as an expression of their desire to take over the world is fatuous.

We are at war with a very dangerous and insidious enemy who think they are doing Gods will by killing us.

But the REASON why they think this way is prompted by 60 years or more of Western meddling and interference in Middle Eastern countries over OIL and American support for ISRAEL.


To me that is a lot of crap. The problem is that they emigrate to the western nations for a better life for themselves and families however they do not assimilate. They are citizens in name only and owe their allegiance to a foreign nation and remain strangers in strange land.
0 Replies
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 07:18 am
au1929 wrote:
Steve wrote
Quote:
Just to dismiss Muslim anger as an expression of their desire to take over the world is fatuous.

We are at war with a very dangerous and insidious enemy who think they are doing Gods will by killing us.

But the REASON why they think this way is prompted by 60 years or more of Western meddling and interference in Middle Eastern countries over OIL and American support for ISRAEL.


To me that is a lot of crap. The problem is that they emigrate to the western nations for a better life for themselves and families however they do not assimilate. They are citizens in name only and owe their allegiance to a foreign nation and remain strangers in strange land.


Is that so ?? And how often do the "natives" offer help to assimilate ?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 07:22 am
the prince
What do you expect the "native" to do?
0 Replies
 
 

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