Crime Between Prersons of Different Races

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

It is a dodge because it is completely out of no where. It has nothing to do with the topic.

It's related to your hard-line stance on freedom.

maxdancona wrote:

One is a matter for legislatures and courts.
The other is two assholes who think they have the right to block someone's path and demand that they answer questions.

So it is OK for the government to violate your rights, but not OK for private citizens to violate your rights?

maxdancona wrote:

- You say that these two assholes have the right to block your path and demand you answer their questions.

No I don't. See what I mean about my answers not registering with you?

If their attempt to detain me results in my death, that is murder. Unless I was trying to kill them for detaining me, in which case my death is manslaughter (which is still a very serious crime).

I could also press charges against them for detaining me if I survive the encounter. Although if they were honestly worried that I was a criminal, and the matter was quickly cleared up by the police, I probably would choose to not do so.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

He seems to be saying that there is nothing wrong with someone blocking your path to demand you answer their questions.
Am I wrong Oralloy?

Yes. Quite wrong.

If their detention of me resulted in a fight where I endangered their lives and they were forced to kill me, they would be guilty of manslaughter. This is a serious crime.

If their detention of me led to my death without any danger to their lives, they would be guilty of murder.

I could press charges against them for detaining me if I chose to do so.

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@glitterbag,

glitterbag wrote:

Trayvon Martin

Stalked by a grown fat guy not in a uniform (and according to the community, he was a self appointed community watch)

What if Zimmerman was a crime boss who was trying to coerce Martin into delivering some drugs, for example, and Martin refused and that was the reason the fight ensued and why he was shot? If a drug boss is bullying a kid to do his dirty work for him, isn't the fight/killing less likely to take place if there is a legitimate community watch, volunteer and/or paid security or police present to deter the criminal from abusing/killing a kid who is resisting submission?

Idk if stopping people for questioning was common in the area where TM was killed, but wouldn't you think that if it was common practice to stop people for questioning, either by police or community watch volunteers or paid security guards or whatever, that it would have been more likely that the interaction between TM and whoever had been policing that area would not have resulted in conflict and/or violence.

School resource officers, parents, etc. used to teach kids about how to respond to police in a non-threatening way since police are on edge due to the potential for sudden outbursts and violence. So they taught things like keeping your hands on the steering wheel during a traffic stop, etc. So if there are routine stops, questioning, etc. then people are used to responding to police approaching them in a friendly way and thus conflict can be prevented.

Obviously everyone feels like a suspect when police stop you for questioning, but if we didn't have police monitoring activity that would be an invitation to criminal organizations to recruit more vulnerable people than they already do into exploitative/abusive roles that land them in jail and/or get them killed.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Zimmerman was a one man self appointed security guard, who called the police when he spotted the skinny 14 year old returning to his Dad's condo. The police warned Zimmerman to stop following the child, But junior crime buster couldn't wait.....he had a gun and Trayvon was armed with a bag of skittles. I hate to state the obvious, but if Trayvon had been white or a 14 year old girl he would be in prison.

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@glitterbag,

glitterbag wrote:

Zimmerman was a one man self appointed security guard,

He was the captain of the neighborhood watch.

glitterbag wrote:

who called the police when he spotted the skinny 14 year old

Trayvon was 17, and was no weakling.

glitterbag wrote:

returning to his Dad's condo.

You left out the part where Trayvon was casing homes to break into later that night while he was high on PCP.

glitterbag wrote:

The police warned Zimmerman to stop following the child, But junior crime buster couldn't wait.....

Mr. Zimmerman stopped tailing Trayvon when the police advised that it was a bad idea.

glitterbag wrote:

he had a gun and Trayvon was armed with a bag of skittles.

Mr. Zimmerman had every right to defend himself when Trayvon started bashing his head against a concrete sidewalk.

That's why the police returned his gun to him so he could auction it off for a quarter million dollars:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-zimmerman-idUSKCN0YB2RL

It's also why he is now suing the Martin family for $100 million dollars so he can seize all the money that they've made at his expense:
https://apnews.com/6d1a808562080dac2d1ca9ce3b0dd416

glitterbag wrote:

I hate to state the obvious, but if Trayvon had been white or a 14 year old girl he would be in prison.

Mr. Zimmerman would also have had the right to defend himself if a white person or a 14 year old girl had tried to murder him.

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Zimmerman is a classic case of getting away with murder, due to a screwed up set of laws designed for just such a miscarriage of justice. The lawmakers knew they were setting up African Americans to get murdered and still provided a get out of jail free card.

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@edgarblythe,

Mr. Zimmerman had every right to prevent Trayvon Martin from murdering him.

BLM nonsense about preventing people from defending themselves when black people try to murder them is just wrong.

Self defense is not getting away with murder. Neither is it a miscarriage of justice. If black people don't want people to defend themselves against them, they can achieve that by not trying to murder people in the first place.

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@glitterbag,

You avoided the point I made about how it could have been prevented.

If a kid gets shot by a drug/crime boss because he is refusing to do whatever crime the boss is telling him to, it is because there wasn't enough police/security/community-watch present to deter the shooting.

I.e. if Zimmerman was trying to get Martin to deliver drugs and he refused and that was ultimately why Zimmerman shot him, that could have been prevented by having real legitimate security/police/community-watch around.

Anyway, the post I was responding to was asking if it is legitimate for black people to have community-watch organizations against crime, so I posted the example of PAGAD (South African).

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

All that had to be done to have prevent it was to have the murdering swine to have held back and waited for the cops. Hell, this was Florida - the cops probably would have killed the 14 yr old child themselves as a free service and given the murdering poop head a Jr G-man badge.

2 Replies

@bobsal u1553115,

I know that BLM goons really hate it when their attacks are spoiled with self defense, but no. Defending yourself when a black person tries to kill you isn't murder.

Holding back and waiting for the cops to show up is exactly what Mr. Zimmerman was doing when Trayvon Martin came up to him and started bashing his head against the sidewalk.

There was no 14 year old child involved in this incident.

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@livinglava,

Mr. Zimmerman is not a crime boss and is not engaged in any sort of illegal activity.

Mr. Zimmerman was the captain of the community watch that you just referred to.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Mr. Zimmerman is not a crime boss and is not engaged in any sort of illegal activity.

Mr. Zimmerman was the captain of the community watch that you just referred to.

I don't know him and I'm not going to pretend that I do.

What I do know is that it is possible for people to pretend to be innocent civilians in order to carry out criminal activity and then deny it when questioned.

If you were stopped by people telling you they were community watch in order to rob you or just in order to bully you into staying out of their gang territory, you would not be happy about it.

If legitimate police or community watch stop you, you thank them for keeping the area safe and they send you on your way.

But what about when criminals lie and thank the police/security for policing crime just to trick the police into letting them go so they can go commit crime?

That's where you get into the boy who cried wolf problem of not knowing when people are telling the truth because of all the other people who lie. Racism then becomes a factor along with other similarities/differences that cause some people to distrust certain people more than others.

Now, why do people get into victim competitions where they argue that they have it worse than other people? Probably various reasons, but does it help the situation when a criminal/liar argues that you're suspecting them unfairly so that they can go perpetrate crime? No it doesn't; it makes it worse for law abiding citizens who resemble them in some way, physically and/or behaviorally.

Basically criminals should stop committing crime in order to stop discrimination, but they're not going to do that, so we have to try to treat people as innocent in the absence of reasonable suspicion, but it is difficult when you have a strong sense that someone is lying/cheating but you can't yet prove it (and it's not because you are prejudiced against them because of their category).

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

I don't know him and I'm not going to pretend that I do.

Then there is no justification for suggesting that he is a crime boss.

livinglava wrote:

If you were stopped by people telling you they were community watch in order to rob you or just in order to bully you into staying out of their gang territory, you would not be happy about it.

If legitimate police or community watch stop you, you thank them for keeping the area safe and they send you on your way.

Mr. Zimmerman was legitimately the head of the neighborhood watch.

He did not attempt to stop Trayvon Martin. He discretely tailed him at a distance. Then when advised that tailing him was probably a bad idea, he stopped following him altogether.

livinglava wrote:

Basically criminals should stop committing crime in order to stop discrimination, but they're not going to do that, so we have to try to treat people as innocent in the absence of reasonable suspicion, but it is difficult when you have a strong sense that someone is lying/cheating but you can't yet prove it (and it's not because you are prejudiced against them because of their category).

More security cameras and a strong neighborhood watch would help to better guard against criminals.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

livinglava wrote:
I don't know him and I'm not going to pretend that I do.

Then there is no justification for suggesting that he is a crime boss.

You don't get it. I wasn't saying anything about Zimmerman. I was saying that IF he was a crime boss trying to get a kid to do his dirty work and the kid refuse, that would have been the reason for the shooting and IF it were, then having community watch or security or police patrolling the area could have prevented it.

My point was that regardless of what you believe about Zimmerman and Martin's personal motives in the situation, real legitimate community watch can prevent such shootings from happening.

If more people would have been around when Zimmerman and Martin had started arguing, do you think it would have escalated as far as it did, or would someone have just called the police in time to stop it? See the importance of good community watch?

Quote:

Mr. Zimmerman was legitimately the head of the neighborhood watch.

The case is over. I am not judge or jury so you don't have to argue either case to me. All I'm talking about is how to prevent similar situations from happening in the future.

Quote:

He did not attempt to stop Trayvon Martin. He discretely tailed him at a distance. Then when advised that tailing him was probably a bad idea, he stopped following him altogether.

I vaguely remember that from the media coverage, but really the whole issue comes down to whether it should be illegal to follow someone, or whether people have the right to police their local areas. If you say they don't, then you are basically giving a green light for criminals to walk free in areas that can't afford security guards and/or where police presence is lacking.

Quote:

More security cameras and a strong neighborhood watch would help to better guard against criminals.

What if criminals claim to be 'neighborhood watch' as a facade for managing gang territory, and the kids they use to do their dirty work are afraid that if they tell the truth, they or their families will face gang retaliation?

Basically, police need to get to know neighborhood watch participants so that if something happens, they know the people well enough to know that their intentions are legitimate and not a cover for something sinister.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

You don't get it. I wasn't saying anything about Zimmerman. I was saying that IF he was a crime boss trying to get a kid to do his dirty work and the kid refuse, that would have been the reason for the shooting and IF it were, then having community watch or security or police patrolling the area could have prevented it.

When you jump into a discussion where progressives are falsely accusing an innocent person of crimes, and you say stuff like "What if this person was really a criminal?" that tends to strengthen the false accusations against the innocent person.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

livinglava wrote:
You don't get it. I wasn't saying anything about Zimmerman. I was saying that IF he was a crime boss trying to get a kid to do his dirty work and the kid refuse, that would have been the reason for the shooting and IF it were, then having community watch or security or police patrolling the area could have prevented it.

When you jump into a discussion where progressives are falsely accusing an innocent person of crimes, and you say stuff like "What if this person was really a criminal?" that tends to strengthen the false accusations against the innocent person.

The point is that people are using the T Martin example to claim that neighborhood watch is bad, when the reality is that it can stop crime. The reason I gave the example, "if Zimmerman had been a drug/crime boss and Martin was killed for refusing a delivery," was not to imply anything about the actual situation, but to postulate a hypothetical situation in which neighborhood watch could have prevented and/or stopped the violence.

E.g. if some drug/crime boss had been arguing with Martin and Zimmerman as neighborhood watch saw the situation and intervened, the two might have stopped arguing and left the scene and no fight/killing would have happened.

So it's wrong to use that case as a reason to condemn neighborhood watch, when neighborhood watch or other security/police presence can stop/deter fights/killings before they escalate.

It can be as simple as people going out walking so that there are always potential witnesses. Security cameras are also a good thing.

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@bobsal u1553115,

he followed the law. had a cell phone could have called for help if he thought h was in danger yet choose to attack. same thing with the guy and the handicap spot he decide he would attack first maybe try to settle is peaceful and not to attack 1st.

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@gollum,

gollum wrote:

I read recently of a murder of an African-American man (Ahmaud Arbery) by a white man. I hope that the murderer is brought to justice.

Are there more murders of black by white or white by black?

Did you read of a murder of a beautiful White woman (Leslie Squair Baker) who was slain outside her home on Memorial Day when a 16-year-old black male shot her in an attempted carjacking?
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dallas-police-make-2-additional-arrest-in-murder-of-well-known-marketing-executive/2389217/

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Racist crap.

1 Reply

@bobsal u1553115,

bobsal u1553115 wrote:

Racist crap.

Maybe they should just let him go. You know, reparations.

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Crime Between Prersons of Different Races

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