Crime Between Prersons of Different Races

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

It doesn't matter.

You are saying that as long as you roll over and submit to this, you will stay alive. So therefore you must roll over and submit to it or it is your fault.

I think a man has the right to resist this.

Maybe tucking your tail between your legs is the correct strategy. But that doesn't mean that most men wouldn't at least think about standing up for themselves.

When I had a gun pointed at me, I was with my teen-aged daughter. This had two effects.

1) Made me more angry (what kind of asshole points a gun at a 13 year old girl).
2) Made me think more clearly. Any thought I had of resisting was easily overridden by the fact my daughter's safety was only important thing.

So I complied (handing over my phone and my money). Clearly the correct decision.

But I am not sure if you understand how this feels. There basic urge for a man to resist being forced to do something. Being forced to do something at the end of a gun is upsetting and frustrating no matter how trivial it may be. I thought about this after... had my daughter not been with me I may have still cooperative, but I could feel an emotional urge to resist. I may have at least tried to stall him.

It is a person forcing you to do something that you don't want to do. There is a basic injustice to this that I am not sure you understand.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

You do realize there is a difference between "robbing someone" and "asking them questions"?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

It doesn't matter.

The difference between a minor inconvenience and a major inconvenience seems significant.

maxdancona wrote:

You are saying that as long as you roll over and submit to this, you will stay alive. So therefore you must roll over and submit to it or it is your fault.

I didn't say anything about fault. You asked what I would do in such a scenario. I answered.

maxdancona wrote:

I think a man has the right to resist this.
Maybe tucking your tail between your legs is the correct strategy. But that doesn't mean that most men wouldn't at least think about standing up for themselves.

Resist? Standing up for themselves? Tucking your tail between your legs?

All they did was try to ask the jogger some questions.

Remind me to never ask you any questions. I might not survive the experience.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

It is true that we don't know the whole story yet. And if these people knew each other, it will change my opinion (depending on their relationship). But it seems right now that they were two strange men and that the jogger had no idea what they wanted.

I don't think that you would have any obligation to let them force you to stop. You might do so because it is the smart thing to do. That doesn't change the injustice of them forcing you to do something that you don't want to do.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I do not believe they knew each other.

I guess they did have a previous encounter when Gregory McMichael was an investigator for the prosecutor. But it was a minor incident years ago. I doubt that either party remembered the other from that past encounter.

I think "injustice" is a bit strong of a term for merely trying to ask some questions when you suspect someone of wrongdoing.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

You do realize there is a difference between "robbing someone" and "asking them questions"?

I am saying how it feels for someone to force you to do something at gunpoint. I know how that feels.

I don't think that someone demanding that I stop at gunpoint so that they could "ask me questions" would feel any different.

The point I am trying to get across is that no one has the right to force you to do anything when you are in a public space. You have the right to your personal freedom. If someone is blocking your path, they are taking that away.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Perhaps when the police came I would have the right to charge them for detaining me.

If they seemed genuinely concerned that I was up to no good, and if the police quickly arrived to clear things up, I do not think I would press charges.

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Well... I disagree with you, and I would be furious if any assholes did this to me. I value my personal freedom.

But I respect your consistency.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Does it harm your freedom to have someone ask you some questions?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Does it harm your freedom to have someone ask you some questions?

If they are running along side of me, and yelling the questions to me... then no. Anyone can ask me anything they want (and I have the freedom to answer or not).

Once they block my path (or point a gun at me), they are harming my freedom.

Once they force you to do something that you do not want to do, they are harming your freedom.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Does this hard-line stance on freedom mean you also oppose progressives when they violate your Second Amendment rights?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

That's an interesting dodge. But, OK.

If two people come to ask you questions about whether your guns are legal... you have no obligation to stop to answer them. If they block your path to "ask you questions" about your guns, they are violating your rights.

You have the second amendment right to own guns, and you don't have to answer or explain to anyone for that.

If rather than answering their demands you decide to push by them and they kill you... that would be murder.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

What am I supposed to be dodging? I've answered all your questions about what the law says. The answers seem to have not registered with you, but I did provide them. I've also answered all your questions about what I would do in the same situation as that jogger.

So is it OK with your hard-line stance on freedom when progressives violate your gun rights?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

It is a dodge because it is completely out of no where. It has nothing to do with the topic.

One is a matter for legislatures and courts. I believe the Constitution should be followed. The legislature should legislate and the courts should rule based on the Constitution (including the second amendment). Where progressives push though laws that are unconstitutional, they should be struck down by the courts. I suspect you agree with this.

The other is two assholes who think they have the right to block someone's path and demand that they answer questions. My examples have all fit that pattern. Whether it is two assholes demanding that you answer about your guns, or demanding that a jogger about robberies... it is the same basic example.

- I say that once these two assholes block my path and prevent me from going on my way, they are violating my rights. I am consistent about this.

- You say that these two assholes have the right to block your path and demand you answer their questions.

I think both of us are being consistent. As I said, I respect that.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

- You say that these two assholes have the right to block your path and demand you answer their questions.

I think he told you what he would do in that situation not that they have a right to do it. You are saying he said something different. Adding your meaning to his words.

1 Reply

@coldjoint,

Oralloy is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He seems to be saying that there is nothing wrong with someone blocking your path to demand you answer their questions.

Am I wrong Oralloy?

Coldjoint I would love to hear your take on this question. If two Black men stopped their truck in front of you while you were walking down the street, blocked your path and demanded you answer their questions....

.... what would you do?

Would you be upset if people did this to you?

3 Replies

@maxdancona,

Quote:

Oralloy is perfectly capable of speaking for himself.

I know that, I like him.

Quote:

He seems to be saying that there is nothing wrong with someone blocking your path to demand you answer their questions.

And you said he was saying they had the right to do that, which he did not say. OK?

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

If two Black men stopped their truck in front of you while you were walking down the street, blocked your path and demanded you answer their questions....

.... what would you do?

Would you be upset if people did this to you?

As I recall, there were black anti-crime vigilante movements in earlier decades. I tried googling it, but I could only find this South African example, called PAGAD

Quote:

PAGAD was originally initiated by a handful of PAC and community members from a Cape Town townships who decided to organize public demonstrations to pressure the government to fight the illegal drug trade and gangsterism more effectively.[1]:11[2] However, PAGAD increasingly took matters into their own hands, believing the police were not taking enough action against gangs.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_Against_Gangsterism_and_Drugs

So the question is if you identify as white or otherwise non-black and you are also against crime and drugs, and you are aware that such an anti-crime vigilante group is stopping people for questioning in an area, are you going to be any more bothered if they stop you for questioning than if a black police officer would stop you for questioning? If so, why?

Obviously everyone's answer is going to be different depending on how their mind operates with regard to racism, anti-racism, terrorism, counter-terrorism, community policing, vigilantism, etc. and I think for me a lot would depend on how much faith I have that the organization is actually anti-crime and not some kind of facade for organized crime to protect a certain area from outsiders snooping around.

If you trust that people, such as a community watch or security guards or whatever are legitimately stopping people for questioning to prevent crime in an area, why should it matter if they are black or some other race any more than if a police officer who stops you for questioning is black?

The issue is whether you trust the organizational authority in question. If you think they are just out to harass you or get you in some way, it doesn't matter whether it's the police or private security; but if you believe they are just preventing crime and you don't have any criminal intent, then you have nothing to fear, right?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Trayvon Martin

Stalked by a grown fat guy not in a uniform (and according to the community, he was a self appointed community watch)

3 Replies

@glitterbag,

Mr. Zimmerman had every right to defend himself when Trayvon tried to murder him.

0 Replies

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