Crime Between Prersons of Different Races

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

They will be judged by how much of a threat you are to them?

Yes. If they killed me in self defense because I was about to kill them, they would only be guilty of manslaughter.

maxdancona wrote:

(If you were a threat to them, they wouldn't be blocking your path).

That is incorrect. People start trouble with people who can squash them all the time.

maxdancona wrote:

This sounds ridiculous.

Not to me. I find the law to be reasonable.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

1. They followed you. They stopped for you. They stepped in front of you. You were trying to avoid them and just want them to leave you alone.

2. There are two of them, it is hardly a fair fight. I would think that you would be trying to be just enough of a threat that they would leave you alone and let you be (that would be the reasonable thing to do).

Why would you be about to kill them? You would be trying to get away. You suggested that you would try to "communicate" with them... but if they grab you are step in front of you to block your path, any reasonable person is going to be trying to figure out how to get away without giving in to them.

There is nothing that this jogger did that you have said is different than how you might have reacted in this situation.

And yet you still think it is OK for someone to kill you if this happened to you?

You are being ridiculous.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Let me say this Oralloy. If anyone ever did this to you, I would feel bad. You would be dead.

If the assholes who did this to you got away with it (i.e. didn't go to jail for a long time), I would be furious.

The fact that it was two on one (not a fair fight) and that you were just minding your business and not looking for trouble before they decided to start something would make me that much more angry.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Keep in mind that it was not a fight at all until the jogger violently tried to grapple the shotgun away from Travis McMichael.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

1. They followed you. They stopped for you. They stepped in front of you. You were trying to avoid them and just want them to leave you alone.

That does not give me the right to kill them. They might choose to defend themselves if I tried to kill them.

maxdancona wrote:

2. There are two of them, it is hardly a fair fight.

That still doesn't give me the right to kill them if I get the better of them. They still might choose to defend themselves if I tried to kill them.

maxdancona wrote:

I would think that you would be trying to be just enough of a threat that they would leave you alone and let you be (that would be the reasonable thing to do).

And if you are wrong about me? If I decided to kill someone for merely standing in my way, would it be all right with you if they tried to defend themselves from me?

maxdancona wrote:

Why would you be about to kill them?

They were blocking my path. Maybe in this hypothetical I'm someone who really doesn't like people blocking my path.

maxdancona wrote:

You would be trying to get away. You suggested that you would try to "communicate" with them... but if they grab you are step in front of you to block your path, any reasonable person is going to be trying to figure out how to get away without giving in to them.

Maybe not in this hypothetical.

Maybe in this hypothetical I'm a psychopath who kills anyone who blocks my path.

So now in this hypothetical these two unfortunates who chose to waylay me are about to die.

Is it all right with you if they try to defend themselves from me?

maxdancona wrote:

There is nothing that this jogger did that you have said is different than how you might have reacted in this situation.

Irrelevant.

maxdancona wrote:

And yet you still think it is OK for someone to kill you if this happened to you?

I've never said that manslaughter is OK.

Where do you get these odd views about manslaughter charges? Earlier you said that manslaughter means that the death was the fault of the dead person. Now you are saying that manslaughter charges mean that the death is OK.

maxdancona wrote:

You are being ridiculous.

I am merely explaining the law to you. If you think that the law is ridiculous, you are free to try to convince the legislature to change it. I happen to think that the law is reasonable.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Keep in mind that it was not a fight at all until the jogger violently tried to grapple the shotgun away from Travis McMichael.

Someone steps in your way blocking your path with a shotgun. What would you have done?

You said you would try to communicate with them? What would you say?

You keep saying that these guys would have the right to kill you if you fought back. So it's a fair question. What would you have done?

Would you really have put your tail between your legs?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Since they wanted to talk to me, I would ask them what they wanted.

I didn't say they would have the right to kill me if I fought back.

I said that if my fighting was no threat to their lives, then killing me would be murder.

I said that if my fighting against them was a threat to their lives, then killing me would be manslaughter.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Since they wanted to talk to me I would ask them what they wanted.

And then? If they were blocking your path... or if they demanded that you drop what you were doing and come with them? Or if they started blaming you for something you didn't do?

At any point would you stand up for yourself? I think most men are going to at some point push past these assholes. I would assume that if they were going to shoot me, they would shoot me.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

I said that if my fighting was no threat to their lives, then killing me would be murder.

Come on, there are two of them against one of you. Really now....

I have been in fist fights where no one died and no one really thought their life was at risk.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

How many fights have you been in where one side or another will have possession of a shotgun?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

I don't like giving into bullies.

If the guy had a shotgun, and stepped into your path you might be cowed into giving in. My instinct would be to say "**** you" (assuming that the guy wouldn't really shoot me) and pushed past. You are correct that I haven't been in this circumstance. I have been robbed at gunpoint, but in this case it was clear what the asshole wanted.

If you pushed past the guy with the shotgun... I certainly wouldn't blame you. That is a normal response that most men would at least consider.

I didn't take you for a pacifist. Maybe your strategy of complying with them and hoping that they agreed to stay there until the police came. If you gave in, and they demanded you got into the truck with them now, I think you are putting yourself in greater risk. The basic rule is to never go to a secondary location.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

Are these guys bullies for wanting to stop someone who they believed was stealing stuff?

I'm not sure if I am a pacifist or not. But agreeing to wait for the police seems reasonable.

I would not agree to let them take me anywhere.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

If they were blocking your path... or if they demanded that you drop what you were doing and come with them? Or if they started blaming you for something you didn't do?

I wouldn't let them take me anywhere. If they wanted to call the police and have me wait in public for the police to show up, I'd likely consent to that.

If they started blaming me for something I didn't do, I'd deny the charges.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

Really,

If you were minding your own business, and two guys came out, blocked your path, and demanded that you wait... you wouldn't consider that a problem?

How long would you be willing to wait for these assholes? I would be pretty pissed off.

I don't like bullies. No one has the right to waste my time. I don't even want to be detained by the real police for something I didn't do. And if they are going to stop me, they damn well better have probably cause.

1 Reply

I am glad you are consistent.

You are OK with two random guys stopping you while you are minding your own business, and blocking your path so you can't get by. You will "communicate" with them... and wait for however long. And you won't be angry.

And you wouldn't see a problem with this. And if you decided to resist and they killed you, that wouldn't count as murder (since you were resisting).

I disagree with you. But at least you are consistent.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I don't think it would take very long for the police to show up.

Killing me because I was merely resisting them would be murder.

Killing me to save themselves because I was about to kill them would be manslaughter.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

If you were minding your own business, and two guys came out, blocked your path, and demanded that you wait... you wouldn't consider that a problem?
How long would you be willing to wait for these assholes?

If they suspected me of wrongdoing, wanted to summon the police, and wanted me to wait in public for the police to show up, I'd be willing to wait for a bit. I wouldn't think it would take very long for the police to show up.

If I was on the way somewhere because of an emergency, maybe in that case I wouldn't agree to wait.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

Who knows how long it will take. And why does it matter.

No one has the right to block your path or to prevent you from going down a public street. Even if they call you a "criminal"... they still have no right to do this to you.

Why are you so willing to let people do this to you? Would you at least be angry?

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

The length of the wait matters because a short wait is usually a minor inconvenience.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

It doesn't matter.

You are saying that as long as you roll over and submit to this, you will stay alive. So therefore you must roll over and submit to it or it is your fault.

I think a man has the right to resist this.

Maybe tucking your tail between your legs is the correct strategy. But that doesn't mean that most men wouldn't at least think about standing up for themselves.

2 Replies

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