Okay...let's see...where was I...

neologist wrote:

]If they had loved their creator...

Now you are suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't love their creator.

What a pitiful argument that is!

Quote:

..., they would have obeyed him without hair splitting definitions of what is evil and what is bad and what is wrong.

No, Neo. If they truly did not know there was anything wrong with disobedience...and the silly fairytale tells us that they did not know that...they would not necessarily have obeyed him.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD. THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE FAIRYTALE.

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Their consciences told them it was wrong.

Obviously, people in fairytales without the knowledge of good and evil...CANNOT have a conscience.

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Why do you think they covered themselves?

Try to wake up for a second.

They didn't cover themselves UNTIL AFTER THEY HAD EATEN FROM THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

Before that...they walked around stark naked.

Do you EVER use your brain?

Quote:

Next you'll be telling us it depends on what your definition of is is.

Nope. It depends on whether you use your brain or not.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
If they had loved their creator...

Now you are suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't love their creator.

What a pitiful argument that is!

So, you're saying you didn't obey your parents out of love, only because yo mamma had da belt. Laughing

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

..., they would have obeyed him without hair splitting definitions of what is evil and what is bad and what is wrong.

Frank Apisa wrote:

No, Neo. If they truly did not know there was anything wrong with disobedience...and the silly fairytale tells us that they did not know that...they would not necessarily have obeyed him.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD. THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE FAIRYTALE.

What part of "If you eat of it, you will die" didn't they understand?

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

Their consciences told them it was wrong.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Obviously, people in fairytales without the knowledge of good and evil...CANNOT have a conscience.

So where did the conscience come from?

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This is called Janus or Gemini

In many prayers and much meditations there came this vision.

The lord dropped down a sheet that as I gazed upon it I saw this heavenly apparition.

I felt myself moving backward through time. I saw memories and history merging into the past. I saw the people and I saw their religion.

They were hypocrites with mirrors in their hearts.... They looked upon the priests and kings for truth. Yet the truth of the kings and priests was corrupt.

The people could not see this corruption for they were blind to God and relied on their spiritual leaders. Their leaders had an outer and an inner heart, an old heart and a young heart and they did both beat in the same body... One heart looked back to the old world and one heart looked onto the future.

The people could not see the two hearts for they perceived them as one. The priests were evil they deceived the people with one heart and cheated them with the other. The people could not detect this deception because they could not see the evil heart within. They were tricked by the old heart which was sly and cunning and they were enticed by the young heart into an uncertain future.

The people perceived holiness of the priests and not the evil done in the secret recesses of the heart. They saw the holy robes of the priests as the youthful heart and the relics that taught them of the old heart.

They did not see the folly of two hearts.

The priests and kings took these sacred hearts from Noah. For it was Noah that had two faces. One face that looked back upon the antediluvian world and one that saw the new world appear. Noah's heart was with the true God but his face was divided by his particular circumstances of his life. Noah saw the angels of the true God in chains of silence then Noah knew his own silence...

Yet it was the priests and kings that took the faces of Noah and used it to conceal their mysteries. Images of four footed beasts, sea creatures and the foul of the air were worshiped and did rule on high.

The lord took me even further back in time. Where I saw Adam and he did have two faces too.. His one face was young for it was Eden which saw his youth and his other face was old for after the fall Adam became as the dust. Both Adam and Eve had two faces, one prideful and one humble...

For after the fall they heard two voices. They looked to God and saw two faces as one.

An old face and a new face... For the image of God was torn in twain. There were the mysteries of God and there was the truth of God. There was the love of God and the wrath of God. There was knowledge of good and evil...

When I gazed upon Christ I saw but one complete face... I saw one way and one heart and mind.

Yet the people could not see the one way.. They looked instead onto God and they saw mirrors that reflected back their own evil.

...for the people had two faces too. One that was secret and one that was deceit.

I cried out to Christ! Please show them the way!

Then, I looked upon my own heart...

Peace with God...

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Rex Reed, wherever you get these writings, they're enlightening.

Whoever wrote the above, I'm not surprised with the extent of the realizations that he/she came to a conclusion to "...look upon my own heart."

We can only change our own heart, nobody else's. It's nobody's business to continue pointing out the great sins of others, all those things that people are doing "wrong."

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sunlover wrote:

Rex Reed, wherever you get these writings, they're enlightening.

Whoever wrote the above, I'm not surprised with the extent of the realizations that he/she came to a conclusion to "...look upon my own heart."

We can only change our own heart, nobody else's. It's nobody's business to continue pointing out the great sins of others, all those things that people are doing "wrong."

Welcome sunlover Smile

I have had the above post in fragments in my mind for a few days trying to understand it. Today it became more clear and I wrote it down. None of my visions are based on any particular writings other than the Bible.

We can change peoples hearts by our own positive example...

We can know the true heart of God through Christ.

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
If they had loved their creator...

Now you are suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't love their creator.

What a pitiful argument that is!
So, you're saying you didn't obey your parents out of love, only because yo mamma had da belt.
Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:
..., they would have obeyed him without hair splitting definitions of what is evil and what is bad and what is wrong.
Frank Apisa wrote:
No, Neo. If they truly did not know there was anything wrong with disobedience...and the silly fairytale tells us that they did not know that...they would not necessarily have obeyed him.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH DISOBEYING THE GOD. THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE FAIRYTALE.
What part of "If you eat of it, you will die" didn't they understand?

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:
Their consciences told them it was wrong.
Frank Apisa wrote:
Obviously, people in fairytales without the knowledge of good and evil...CANNOT have a conscience.

So where did the conscience come from?

Your posts are pitiful considering you pretend to be an educated, intelligent person.

The point of the story was that your idiot god did not want Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil....and then punished them for doing something it (the idiot god) considered evil.

It is a pathetic story...and an even more pathetic allegory.

Too bad you are not bright enough to see it for what it is.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Your posts are pitiful considering you pretend to be an educated, intelligent person.

The point of the story was that your idiot god did not want Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil....and then punished them for doing something it (the idiot god) considered evil.

It is a pathetic story...and an even more pathetic allegory.

Too bad you are not bright enough to see it for what it is.

Wrong again, Frank. Adam and Eve knew what was right and what was wrong. God did not mean for them to have to decide good and evil for themselves.

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The devil caused Eve to doubt God. Eve went by her five senses rather than her spirit. Eve "saw" the apple and it "looked" good to "taste"...

The spirit in Adam and Eve was only there upon a "condition". When they violated the condition God had to react to save them... (as he does with us). God went to plan B. God will not leave us without hope.

There was not only one tree in the garden but two of note. The tree of life was in the center.

Animals cannot perceive the true nature of God. Thus they cannot know evil or good. They rely on their senses or instincts to make decisions. But humans can rise above their five senses through reason and utilize the spirit for guidance.

God gave them the conditional gift of the spirit which "guided" Adam and Eve along the path of holiness. The Devil convinced them to doubt the spirit.

There cannot be free will without doubt.

The spirit was merely a guide that they followed. They knew neither good nor evil because they had never known doubt... They began to doubt that their guide was leading them in the right way. They thought they could possibly reap more of what the tree of life had to offer if they were evil. They burned and lusted after evil and committed evil by allowing the five senses to rule over the spirit.

When their eyes were opened they "knew" good and evil.

They let doubt and pride obscure their guide and lure them into disobedience. The only sin that could be committed in Eden was disobedience to the spirit. To eat of the fruit of the lusts of the flesh was at the heart of this disobedience. They were to listen to the reason that distinguished them from worldly addictions.

The fruit of the tree was disobedience. They partook of Lucifer's disobedience and then Lucifer partook of their spirit.

Thus humans were seen in the image of beasts and the beast was adorned with the image of God.

Adam and Eve were plunged into spiritual darkness and Lucifer and his evil was bathed in light.

The light did now draw the people toward it's evil nature...

2Co 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Your posts are pitiful considering you pretend to be an educated, intelligent person.

The point of the story was that your idiot god did not want Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil....and then punished them for doing something it (the idiot god) considered evil.

It is a pathetic story...and an even more pathetic allegory.

Too bad you are not bright enough to see it for what it is.
Wrong again, Frank. Adam and Eve knew what was right and what was wrong. God did not mean for them to have to decide good and evil for themselves.

Yeah....that assertion fits what you want the fairytale to say. Only trouble with it is that the fairytale is rather explicity that the couple did not know right from wrong...good from evil.

Hell...they were new-borns.

Your pathetic, barbaric god putting them in the position he did is like a human giving a bunch of pre-schoolers a box of handgrenades to play with....and telling them they can do anything they wanted with the grenades....but they are not to pull the pins of any.

We all know what would happen. And any 5 year old could have told your idiot god what would happen if he but these naive, unknowing boobs into that kind of temptation situation.

In any case, except for people who are sheep....and terrified of the god of the Bible...anyone can see that the Eden fairytale is particularly silly.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Your posts are pitiful considering you pretend to be an educated, intelligent person.

The point of the story was that your idiot god did not want Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil....and then punished them for doing something it (the idiot god) considered evil.

It is a pathetic story...and an even more pathetic allegory.

Too bad you are not bright enough to see it for what it is.
Wrong again, Frank. Adam and Eve knew what was right and what was wrong. God did not mean for them to have to decide good and evil for themselves.

Yeah....that assertion fits what you want the fairytale to say. Only trouble with it is that the fairytale is rather explicity that the couple did not know right from wrong...good from evil.

Hell...they were new-borns.

Your pathetic, barbaric god putting them in the position he did is like a human giving a bunch of pre-schoolers a box of handgrenades to play with....and telling them they can do anything they wanted with the grenades....but they are not to pull the pins of any.

We all know what would happen. And any 5 year old could have told your idiot god what would happen if he but these naive, unknowing boobs into that kind of temptation situation.

In any case, except for people who are sheep....and terrified of the god of the Bible...anyone can see that the Eden fairytale is particularly silly.

I am not certain Frank, that the God of the Bible left Adam and Eve "unaware" if they were sinning...

God gave them a guide (spirit) and they followed the guide out of a free will choice. The only sin was to forsake the spirit for the senses. They trusted the spirit and again doubt and disobedience was the downfall.

Adam and Eve were not new "born" but created...

It was the lowliest form of creature that they "saw" that inspired doubt. They conceived of the form of this creature by leaning to their "five senses" and not looking spiritually at their standing with God.

They followed five senses logic rather than spiritual logic.

This doubt led to disobedience toward the spirit, guilt and ultimately "two" roads, one of holiness and one of death.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Hell...they were new-borns.

Really, read it again. Adam was around long enough to name the animals. Plus he was smarter than you and me put together.

Go ahead and keep them stupid if it suits you. Frank.

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Why would Adam and Eve ever feel want? Because of the magnetism of the abyss...

The fallen angel of want came to occupy the garden of paradise.

God held back from fulfilling all of Adam and Eve's wants...

God held a condition up in front of their faces to remind them they were wanting... they could fulfill all wants but one...

Had there not been a single want then the couple would have never known independence of spirit and would have never known justice.

They would have been mere slaves to God and "choice" would have been dictated by God's spirit alone.

Adam and Eve would never have known true life, because they would have been animated solely by the hand of God...

In a world without want there is fullness of spirit...

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Hell...they were new-borns.
Really, read it again. Adam was around long enough to name the animals.

Plus he was smarter than you and me put together.

Oh really! Well...from your perspective, I can understand your thinking that. But being smarter than you....would not necessarily entail being smart at all.

Quote:

Go ahead and keep them stupid if it suits you. Frank.

Go ahead and pretend they knew the difference between good and evil if it suits your purposes, Neo. And obviously it does.

Go ahead and pretend....even though the fairytale specifically shows them to be without a knowledge of good and evil.

Boy....the kinds of bullshyt you poor boobs have to put yourself through in order to kiss that silly god's ass!

It is a gas!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Hell...they were new-borns.
Really, read it again. Adam was around long enough to name the animals.

Plus he was smarter than you and me put together.

Oh really! Well...from your perspective, I can understand your thinking that. But being smarter than you....would not necessarily entail being smart at all.

Quote:
Go ahead and keep them stupid if it suits you. Frank.

Go ahead and pretend they knew the difference between good and evil if it suits your purposes, Neo. And obviously it does.

Go ahead and pretend....even though the fairytale specifically shows them to be without a knowledge of good and evil.

Boy....the kinds of bullshyt you poor boobs have to put yourself through in order to kiss that silly god's ass!

It is a gas!

I've given this whole discussion some thought and finally ran over to Joe Sixpack's place for a cool one. You know Joe; he likes to keep things simple. So I told him what you and I were sayin'

Finally, he puts down the mug and says "neo, this Genesis Exodus stuff was writ by Moses, right?"
"Right." Says I.
"And this Moses feller - He warn't no meadowmuffin, right?"
Right." Says I.
"Well if he figgerd God was right doin' what he done with Adam and Eve, what's that Frank fella beefin about? What kinda point was Moses tryin to make anyways?
"Well, that Adam and Eve knew what they were doing and deserved to die." Says I.
"And this Frank feller, you say he is smarter'n me?
"That's right, Joe; you're just a common man, remember?" Says I.
"Well, how come he cain't figger it out then?"
"I think he just doesn't want to." Says I.
"Prolly right, neo; prolly right."

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Hell...they were new-borns.
Really, read it again. Adam was around long enough to name the animals.

Plus he was smarter than you and me put together.

Oh really! Well...from your perspective, I can understand your thinking that. But being smarter than you....would not necessarily entail being smart at all.

Quote:
Go ahead and keep them stupid if it suits you. Frank.

Go ahead and pretend they knew the difference between good and evil if it suits your purposes, Neo. And obviously it does.

Go ahead and pretend....even though the fairytale specifically shows them to be without a knowledge of good and evil.

Boy....the kinds of bullshyt you poor boobs have to put yourself through in order to kiss that silly god's ass!

It is a gas!
I've given this whole discussion some thought and finally ran over to Joe Sixpack's place for a cool one. You know Joe; he likes to keep things simple. So I told him what you and I were sayin'

Finally, he puts down the mug and says "neo, this Genesis Exodus stuff was writ by Moses, right?"
"Right." Says I.
"And this Moses feller - He warn't no meadowmuffin, right?"
Right." Says I.
"Well if he figgerd God was right doin' what he done with Adam and Eve, what's that Frank fella beefin about? What kinda point was Moses tryin to make anyways?
"Well, that Adam and Eve knew what they were doing and deserved to die." Says I.
"And this Frank feller, you say he is smarter'n me?
"That's right, Joe; you're just a common man, remember?" Says I.
"Well, how come he cain't figger it out then?"
"I think he just doesn't want to." Says I.
"Prolly right, neo; prolly right."

1) If the guys at the bowling alley really have a beef with my take on things...tell 'em to take it up with me personally...or to shove it.

2) For the record, my feelings are that this little story of yours has a greater ring of truth about it than the entire of Genesis.

3) You might wanna do some research on who "writ" Genesis before taking this act on the road.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Hell...they were new-borns.
Really, read it again. Adam was around long enough to name the animals.

Plus he was smarter than you and me put together.

Oh really! Well...from your perspective, I can understand your thinking that. But being smarter than you....would not necessarily entail being smart at all.

Quote:
Go ahead and keep them stupid if it suits you. Frank.

Go ahead and pretend they knew the difference between good and evil if it suits your purposes, Neo. And obviously it does.

Go ahead and pretend....even though the fairytale specifically shows them to be without a knowledge of good and evil.

Boy....the kinds of bullshyt you poor boobs have to put yourself through in order to kiss that silly god's ass!

It is a gas!
I've given this whole discussion some thought and finally ran over to Joe Sixpack's place for a cool one. You know Joe; he likes to keep things simple. So I told him what you and I were sayin'

Finally, he puts down the mug and says "neo, this Genesis Exodus stuff was writ by Moses, right?"
"Right." Says I.
"And this Moses feller - He warn't no meadowmuffin, right?"
Right." Says I.
"Well if he figgerd God was right doin' what he done with Adam and Eve, what's that Frank fella beefin about? What kinda point was Moses tryin to make anyways?
"Well, that Adam and Eve knew what they were doing and deserved to die." Says I.
"And this Frank feller, you say he is smarter'n me?
"That's right, Joe; you're just a common man, remember?" Says I.
"Well, how come he cain't figger it out then?"
"I think he just doesn't want to." Says I.
"Prolly right, neo; prolly right."

1) If the guys at the bowling alley really have a beef with my take on things...tell 'em to take it up with me personally...or to shove it.

2) For the record, my feelings are that this little story of yours has a greater ring of truth about it than the entire of Genesis.

3) You might wanna do some research on who "writ" Genesis before taking this act on the road.

Frank
There is not proof of JEPD and some theists reject the notion.

here is something

Edit [Moderator]: Link removed per request by site owner

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What the heck is JEPD?

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neologist wrote:

What the heck is JEPD?

Edit [Moderator]: Links removed per request by site owner

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RexRed wrote:

neologist wrote:
What the heck is JEPD?

Edit [Moderator]: Link removed per request by site owner

Oh, yeah. Moses wrote the pentateuch and also the book of Job.

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Frank
I wonder how you view the names of God..

These are names of God that help describe various aspects of God.

Elohim (creator) Jehovah (how the creator relates)

I would think that you may see different parts of God in different ways.
Like God as the creator. I would think that if you were even to "guess" that God exists and is a creator that you would not have much problem with that?

God can create and stay in heaven and leave us alone...

But, I think your rub with God is when God tries to actually interact with humans...

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N

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