Okay...let's see...where was I...

huh?

342+112=90?

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I bumped into this topic out of curiosity for what happened to Frank. Since then I have actually thought about the topic and am open to any criticism. I am agnostic but leaning dangerously toward theism rather than atheism. I believe that there just has to be something superior to human beings that I will never completely understand. I am stupefied by the infinite number of stars in the universe. I am mind-boggled when I try to reflect on concepts such as eternity.

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wandeljw wrote:

I bumped into this topic out of curiosity for what happened to Frank. Since then I have actually thought about the topic and am open to any criticism. I am agnostic but leaning dangerously toward theism rather than atheism. I believe that there just has to be something superior to human beings that I will never completely understand. I am stupefied by the infinite number of stars in the universe. I am mind-boggled when I try to reflect on concepts such as eternity.

S'OK wandel -
IMO, to believe that man is more than emotions, intellect and a couple dollars worth of chemicals, and that there is a being higher than man in the universe, just makes sense. Don't be alarmed.

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thanks, snood!

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Eorl wrote:

If x=2 Then the answer would be 454.

Maybe I should have written it 34_ + 11_

but I know you understood my point even if my example looked dodgy. It simply represents a situation that seems obvious but not definite due to the lack of complete data.

Well, with the notion you used...your example fell apart.

And even with your further explanation...your example really makes very little sense.

Quote:

I guess my point is that even though you cannot have an answer you can be certain of, you can make a reasonable estimate based on the data you do have.

Okay...and I make estimates all the time.

Suppose you itemize all the "data" you have that there are no gods so that we can evaluate it.

MY GUESS: The only "data" you have are variations on "they cannot produce a god."

Quote:

Agnosticism seems to be principled refusal to make a guess no matter how educated that guess may be...

Oh, horseshyt. Agnosticism is no such thing. And the only reason I can see for you supposing it to be that...is to make you feel better about your blind guesses.

Quote:

...., (perhaps due to the fear that it may validate all other guesses as equally valid)...is that a fair comment?

No it is not.

Here is a statement of my agnosticism as regards the "existence of gods" question:

I do not know if a God exists...

...I do not know if no gods exist...

...I do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a reasonable guess.

What problem do you have with that?

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wandeljw wrote:

I bumped into this topic out of curiosity for what happened to Frank. Since then I have actually thought about the topic and am open to any criticism. I am agnostic but leaning dangerously toward theism rather than atheism. I believe that there just has to be something superior to human beings that I will never completely understand. I am stupefied by the infinite number of stars in the universe. I am mind-boggled when I try to reflect on concepts such as eternity.

Do yourself a favor, Wandel...

...if you start to lean any further in that direction, seek medical help.

I too am stupified by the huge number of stars in the universe...and I too am mind-boggled when I try to reflect on concepts such as eternity.

But how does becoming a theist possibly impact on any of that?

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Oh, my, Frank!

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Frank,

Thanks for the medical advice.

I thought maybe being a theist would be an acknowledgement that there is something superior to us.

(Letty: don't worry, i actually asked for criticism)

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wandeljw wrote:

Frank,

Thanks for the medical advice.

I thought maybe being a theist would be an acknowledgement that there is something superior to us.

(Letty: don't worry, i actually asked for criticism)

I was trying to be funny...not critical.

I have no idea if there IS SOMETHING superior to us. I rather suspect there is...but it surely would not have to be a god to be superior to us. We are rather puny beings....and there is absolutely no reason to suppose we are the end-all of existence.

But to adopt theism....to assert that there is a God....based on absolutely no unambiguous evidence is absurd.

My suggestion would be to leave all that theism stuff for the folks who are afraid of the unknown.

Or at least, that is my opinion.

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Frank,

It's okay but you seem to have frightened Letty.

I am sure I don't have to tell you that "fear of the unknown" is not the only reason for theism.

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Wandel, I wasn't frightened, my dear. Just wondering why Frank can't use better words than "idiot", "take your meds, etc"

Actually, Frank and I go way back, and I was very concerned about his deja vu at one time. There is no justification for our faith or lack of it. It's religion that is relentless.

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Frank
Frank wrote: "BBB, I am not asking you to "defend" your reasons...but since you brought the issue to this thread, I simply asked for a clarification...and I hoped to initiate a bit of discussion.

Sorry if you got the wrong idea.

I honestly do not see the agnostic position as a cop-out in any way!

But if you prefer not to discuss it....no problem.

I want to stay on your good side, BBB. You offer this forum more useful information than anyone else with your many informative posts."

Frank, sorry for being such a grump. But if you think back the last three months, you will understand why I'm finding it harder to tolerate doctrinaire religious zealots.

First there was the Terri Schiavo case, then the Pope became ill, then came Easter, then the Pope died, then a new Pope was elected. All this was followed by some in the US Congress trying to turn our Republic into a fundamentalist theocracy. I call them the US version of the Taliban even though they strangely don't recognize the similarity.

Add to this the Republican leadership's attempt to impose their religious beliefs on science (embrionic stem cells; a person's right to die at a time of their choosing), and even the Libertarian wing of the Supreme Court being right for once in their defense of State's rights to approve the use of medical marijuana by prescription.

This list doesn't even include the slaughter of millions of innocent people around the world in the name of religious doctrine.

I'm feeling slimed by religious dogma all around me. Where I once could avoid the constant drum beat, it's getting harder to do so.

I so wish there was an end to religious doctrinaire dogma; I wish it would leave me alone!

BBB Evil or Very Mad

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I certainly know what ya mean, BBB.

Those of us who are not theists have to be particularly strong these days.

As regards the political issue...I can only hope that a convincing majority of my fellow countryfolk come to their senses and give this bunch of phonies the heave-ho.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

As regards the political issue...I can only hope that a convincing majority of my fellow countryfolk come to their senses and give this bunch of phonies the heave-ho.

Even if I was devoutly religious, I would want government to be totally secular. Democracy requires secularism.

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wandejw

wandeljw wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
As regards the political issue...I can only hope that a convincing majority of my fellow countryfolk come to their senses and give this bunch of phonies the heave-ho.

Even if I was devoutly religious, I would want government to be totally secular. Democracy requires secularism.

The short-sighted Christian evangelicals who want to convert the US to a theocracy haven't considered the patterns of religious dominance in history. Have they considered how they would feel if any religions, for example, fundamentalist Muslims, became the dominate religion in this country? BTW, bin Laden et al have stated their goal to have Islam be the dominate world religion.

If we think religious violence is a problem now, can you imagine the consequences of Islamic forces attempting to dominate the current non-Muslim world?

Why do fundamentalists feel compelled to convert people to their beliefs? Why can't they just leave people alone to develop their own faiths or to choose not to believe or participate in religion? Is it for control and power? Surely not because they say they are trying to save our souls to get into heaven. What souls? What heaven? What hell? What god?

Now some fundamentalists will claim they try to convert people with love, not violence. Oh yeah? What about the zealots in their midst who have bombed abortion clinics, women's health clinics, killed doctors and nurses. Not violent? Do they think they are playing Kick the Can games?

BBB

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bookmarking

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Eorl wrote:

huh?

342+112=90?

Oh, I see now. You are using standard notation to mean something entirely different. A missing digit should be designated by the wild card character *.

34x + 11x means "34 times an unknown quantity" plus "11 times the same unknown quantity" to everyone who has studied American math.

That's one of the basic problems with religion. Each interprets stuff in their own way and when disagreements arise, people can't understand why their answer isn't crystal clear to everone else.

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Hi Terry.

Still fighting the good fight, I see.

Good for you.

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Hi Frank, good to see you back. I check in to A2K whenever I have some free time. Fortunately I get free internet access at this hotel since I will probably be here til the end of September.

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Free!!!

Here is what Lola had to say about hotel Internet connection costs earlier in this thread.

Quote:

Personally I think we're arguing over semantics, but I don't have the time to elaborate now. This internet connection in the hotel costs $10.00 a day. That's ridiculous.

Bernie says to say that he thinks Agnosticism is nothing but Atheism Lite. And I agree.

Dys,

From one party animal to another......atheists rule!

She is in Seattle.

Hell of a difference!

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Okay...let's see...where was I...

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