Okay...let's see...where was I...

You are the one who saw fit to call me a moron, Frank. It's one of the reasons I enjoy dancing around your recondite rhetoric with my simplicity.

I am constantly amazed at your inability to see the advantage of free will and subsequent failure to connect it, if even allegorically, to the Edenic story.

.....The idiotic myth of the Garden of Eden is a story about people deprived of the ability to recognize right from wrong or evil from good (by the god of the Bible)...and then punished for screwing up.......

And to make matters worse...the silly fable has this idiotic god setting them up for failure...not only by putting them in an unconscionable situtation...but also by including in their midst the arch-tempter of the universe........
What the hell is the value of "free will" if you are deprived of the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong?.....

Frank Apisa wrote:

.....The idiotic myth of the Garden of Eden is a story about people deprived of the ability to recognize right from wrong or evil from good (by the god of the Bible)...and then punished for screwing up.......

And to make matters worse...the silly fable has this idiotic god setting them up for failure...not only by putting them in an unconscionable situtation...but also by including in their midst the arch-tempter of the universe........
What the hell is the value of "free will" if you are deprived of the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong?.....

Adam and Eve certainly had the ability to recognize right from wrong , evil from good. The "knowledge" of good and evil that is spoken of is the experience of good and evil.

The word "know" is used to signify many different things in the Old Testament, as in "Adam knew his wife and she conceived". It is obviously speaking of sexual intimacy, in that instance.

God did not want Adam and Eve to experience both good AND evil. He had created them in perfection, without sin.

Adam and Eve certainly recognized the responsibility they had been given and understood that to disobey God would be wrong.

They had free will as you and I do today. They chose to disobey God just as you and I do today. They weren't some clueless lobotomized critters stumbling around in the dark.

real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

.....The idiotic myth of the Garden of Eden is a story about people deprived of the ability to recognize right from wrong or evil from good (by the god of the Bible)...and then punished for screwing up.......

And to make matters worse...the silly fable has this idiotic god setting them up for failure...not only by putting them in an unconscionable situtation...but also by including in their midst the arch-tempter of the universe........
What the hell is the value of "free will" if you are deprived of the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong?.....

Adam and Eve certainly had the ability to recognize right from wrong , evil from good. The "knowledge" of good and evil that is spoken of is the experience of good and evil.

The word "know" is used to signify many different things in the Old Testament, as in "Adam knew his wife and she conceived". It is obviously speaking of sexual intimacy, in that instance.

God did not want Adam and Eve to experience both good AND evil. He had created them in perfection, without sin.

Adam and Eve certainly recognized the responsibility they had been given and understood that to disobey God would be wrong.

They had free will as you and I do today. They chose to disobey God just as you and I do today. They weren't some clueless lobotomized critters stumbling around in the dark.

Yeah, what you said. And what I said, too.

And you read all this where?

neologist wrote:

And you read all this where?

What point in particular do you need reference for?

I think there is another way to interpret it... both Neo and Real.

Adam and Eve did not know if the things that they did were good or evil...

They were prehistoric.

They had neither knowledge of evil OR good. They were animals and naked. Kind of like Frank... hehe

Yet, God overlooked this because of grace and humans were in harmony with the earth. God did not want humans to feel evil and shame...

When their eyes were "open" they realized they had been rather uncivilized. Again like Frank...

Yet when they realized they suddenly had the capacity for evil... well they began at the simple evil stuff then they graduated to the more sophisticated evil of high treason against the only God at the time.

They gave dominion over the world (which God had given them) to the devil, why? Because they "knew" it was evil and they choose to partake.

This is why it is called "the fall" of Adam and Eve? Because they purposefully and consciously fell into evil. The only other fall in the Bible that is compared to the expanse of the fall of Adam and Eve is the fall of Lucifer.

They chose the greater of two evils and the lesser of two goods.

RexRed wrote:

neologist wrote:

And you read all this where?

What point in particular do you need reference for?

Points, actually:

RexRed wrote:

I think there is another way to interpret it... both Neo and Real.

Adam and Eve did not know if the things that they did were good or evil...

They were prehistoric.

They had neither knowledge of evil OR good. They were animals and naked. Kind of like Frank... hehe

Yet, God overlooked this because of grace and humans were in harmony with the earth. God did not want humans to feel evil and shame...

When their eyes were "open" they realized they had been rather uncivilized. Again like Frank...

Yet when they realized they suddenly had the capacity for evil... well they began at the simple evil stuff then they graduated to the more sophisticated evil of high treason against the only God at the time.

They gave dominion over the world (which God had given them) to the devil, why? Because they "knew" it was evil and they choose to partake.

This is why it is called "the fall" of Adam and Eve? Because they purposefully and consciously fell into evil. The only other fall in the Bible that is compared to the expanse of the fall of Adam and Eve is the fall of Lucifer.

They chose the greater of two evils and the lesser of two goods.

Adam and Eve knew the difference between right and wrong by their consciences...

... which automatically prevented them from causing harm to one another.

For example, they knew it was wrong to steal.

And this knowledge applied to abstract things as well as possessions. It applied to God's right to set standards. God gave them everything they needed or could want and required only one thing in return. This one thing Adam and Eve desired for themselves. That's stealing, Frank. They knew it was wrong.

Frank Apisa wrote:

.....The idiotic myth of the Garden of Eden is a story about people deprived of the ability to recognize right from wrong or evil from good (by the god of the Bible)...and then punished for screwing up.......

And to make matters worse...the silly fable has this idiotic god setting them up for failure...not only by putting them in an unconscionable situtation...but also by including in their midst the arch-tempter of the universe........
What the hell is the value of "free will" if you are deprived of the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong?.....

Adam and Eve certainly had the ability to recognize right from wrong , evil from good. The "knowledge" of good and evil that is spoken of is the experience of good and evil.

The word "know" is used to signify many different things in the Old Testament, as in "Adam knew his wife and she conceived". It is obviously speaking of sexual intimacy, in that instance.

God did not want Adam and Eve to experience both good AND evil. He had created them in perfection, without sin.

Adam and Eve certainly recognized the responsibility they had been given and understood that to disobey God would be wrong.

They had free will as you and I do today. They chose to disobey God just as you and I do today. They weren't some clueless lobotomized critters stumbling around in the dark.

real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

.....The idiotic myth of the Garden of Eden is a story about people deprived of the ability to recognize right from wrong or evil from good (by the god of the Bible)...and then punished for screwing up.......

And to make matters worse...the silly fable has this idiotic god setting them up for failure...not only by putting them in an unconscionable situtation...but also by including in their midst the arch-tempter of the universe........
What the hell is the value of "free will" if you are deprived of the knowledge of good and evil...of right and wrong?.....

Adam and Eve certainly had the ability to recognize right from wrong , evil from good. The "knowledge" of good and evil that is spoken of is the experience of good and evil.

The word "know" is used to signify many different things in the Old Testament, as in "Adam knew his wife and she conceived". It is obviously speaking of sexual intimacy, in that instance.

God did not want Adam and Eve to experience both good AND evil. He had created them in perfection, without sin.

Adam and Eve certainly recognized the responsibility they had been given and understood that to disobey God would be wrong.

They had free will as you and I do today. They chose to disobey God just as you and I do today. They weren't some clueless lobotomized critters stumbling around in the dark.

THEY DID NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL...BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG.

The Bible tells you that.

The only reason you people are going through these absurd contortions is because you see the story to be absurd.

The only reason you folks go through the absurd contortions trying to make the god into something reasonable....rather than the murderous barbarian it is...is because you see the god the same way I see it. You want to change that....and your attempts are laughable.

Comment:
How could the devil credibly offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world if he did not have dominion over them?

How did the devil go from one who was only a lowly tempting snake in a tree to being "the prince of the power of the air"?

Adam and Eve gave him the power God had entrusted them with...

They felt that if they gave the devil their earthly dominion the devil could use it to usurp God's kingdom... That is exactly what the devil has done...

. . .Blah Blah Blah . . .
BUT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT!

Why are you insisting that they did?


That is not a rhetorical question, Neo. Search for the answer. There is a huge amount of information for you when you find it.

RexRed wrote:

Comment:
How could the devil credibly offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world if he did not have dominion over them?

How did the devil go from one who was only a lowly tempting snake in a tree to being "the prince of the power of the air"?

Adam and Eve gave him the power God had entrusted them with...

They felt that if they gave the devil their earthly dominion the devil could use it to usurp God's kingdom... That is exactly what the devil has done...

True; Satan is the ruler of the world.
False; the power was given to him not by Adam and Eve, but by God.
"Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat." (Luke 22:31)

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . .Blah Blah Blah . . .
BUT THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW THAT!

Why are you insisting that they did?


That is not a rhetorical question, Neo. Search for the answer. There is a huge amount of information for you when you find it.

The answer is simple, Frank: Where would Adam and Eve be today if they had not eaten the fruit? What would the earth be like?

According to the fairy tale, that is.

[Hi Frank,

Why are you pretending that the word "know" can only have the meaning you suggest when it is very clear from both the Bible examples given and from our common experience that "know" can carry a variety of meanings?

This is the same tack you attempted when discussing Pharaoh, when you insisted that the word "make" could only have the meaning you suggested instead of admitting, based on both the context and from language usage that "make" can carry a variety of meanings.

You know, Frank, some folks have on occasion said that I take the Bible too literally. But with your insistence of rigid meanings for words to back up your presuppositions, I have to say, that when it comes to a literal interpretation of the Bible, you da man.

You know you are getting to Frank when he yells and uses naughty words. Probably you should wait until he's had his Pluto Water before you challenge him.