Okay...let's see...where was I...

Frank wrote:
Perceptions of gods are at the crux of most of the hatred on this planet.

Comment:
I will argue ignorance of God is the reason for most hatred not God...

When you attribute God to horrors you commit horrors without conscience when you attribute God to life then you have life to offer...

Pr 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Comment:
Does your way seem right Frank?

Wow, walls can be imposed on god?

Yata yata yata

Better to try to understand than build a wall..

You are imposing a wall on God Frank...

Getting back to the initial post in this thread, I would agree with Frank that agnosticism is a more logical position. And, sadly, 'theists' have generally not presented reasonable arguments for belief.

Were God to grab an agnostic or an atheist by the throat and slap him around a bit, no doubt both of them would be forced to admit His existence.

That would make all of us believers...

...but it would not make the world a better place.

Nor would it help if all of us became unbelievers and subscribed to a rigid social contract. Human imperfection would still stand in the way.

Intellectuals would appoint themselves leaders and prescribe for the masses a code of conduct which, first and foremost, would ensure the power of the leaders. And, as priests of god or no god they would continue to dominate man to his injury.

What we might need as a remedy would be for humans to evolve to a point where each had an internal governor, a sort of humanistic superego preventing conduct that infringes on the rights of others. I hate to use the word 'conscience'.

Well, alright, I will call it conscience. But isn't that what humans had in that fairy tale time, in the so-called Garden of Eden?

I hesitate to infer that Moses may have been correct when he wrote that we gave away that perfect conscience in the Edenic rebellion.

Well, alright, I will say that Moses was correct. But I won't tell you to believe it. You will have to do that on your own.

Getting back to the initial post in this thread, I would agree with Frank that agnosticism is a more logical position. And, sadly, 'theists' have generally not presented reasonable arguments for belief.

Were God to grab an agnostic or an atheist by the throat and slap him around a bit, no doubt both of them would be forced to admit His existence.

That would make all of us believers but it would not make the world a better place. Nor would it help if all of us became unbelievers and subscribed to a rigid social contract. Human imperfection would still stand in the way.

Intellectuals would appoint themselves leaders and prescribe for the masses a code of conduct which, first and foremost, would ensure the power of the leaders. And, as priests of god or no god they would continue to dominate man to his injury.

What we might need as a remedy would be for humans to evolve to a point where each had an internal governor, a sort of humanistic superego preventing conduct that infringes on the rights of others. I hate to use the word 'conscience'.

Well, alright, I will call it conscience. But isn't that what humans had in that fairy tale time, in the so-called Garden of Eden? I hesitate to infer that Moses may have been correct when he wrote that we gave away that perfect conscience in the Edenic rebellion.

Well, alright, I will say that Moses was correct. But I won't tell you to believe it. You will have to do that on your own.

There ya go again.

1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

RexRed wrote:

1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Do you never get tired of quoting that trite, silly nonsense?

neologist wrote:

That would make all of us believers...

No it wouldn't. We would all know.

This believing crap (guessing but not acknowledging it as a guess) is way, way over-done by you theists.

...but it would not make the world a better place.

Correct!

Even if we KNEW there were gods....the world would not necessarily be a better place. Conversely....even if we were to be rid of all this superstition that passes for religion and belief in the world....it would not necessarily be a better place.

Nor would it help if all of us became unbelievers and subscribed to a rigid social contract. Human imperfection would still stand in the way.

You would start to see what I am trying to impart, Neo...if you would just never again use the word "belief" or any of its derivatives.

"Unbeliever" is an absurd word.

Intellectuals would appoint themselves leaders and prescribe for the masses a code of conduct which, first and foremost, would ensure the power of the leaders. And, as priests of god or no god they would continue to dominate man to his injury.

Oh, bullshyt. The world would go on just like it is going right now. The superstition of theists does nothing to hold "intellectuals" in check...and probably does more to subjugate the masses than anything else.

What we might need as a remedy would be for humans to evolve to a point where each had an internal governor, a sort of humanistic superego preventing conduct that infringes on the rights of others. I hate to use the word 'conscience'.

Well...I think we have a better chance of making that evolutionary move if we could just get rid of all this goddam religion nonsense.

But it would be a good thing to have happen.

Well, alright, I will call it conscience. But isn't that what humans had in that fairy tale time, in the so-called Garden of Eden?

NO, NO, NO!!!! A thousand times NO.

The idiotic myth of the Garden of Eden is a story about people deprived of the ability to recognize right from wrong or evil from good (by the god of the Bible)...and then punished for screwing up.

And to make matters worse...the silly fable has this idiotic god setting them up for failure...not only by putting them in an unconscionable situtation...but also by including in their midst the arch-tempter of the universe.

I hesitate to infer that Moses may have been correct when he wrote that we gave away that perfect conscience in the Edenic rebellion.

Not sure what Moses had to say about the "Edenic rebellion"....but the "Edenic rebellion" is preposterous.

Well, alright, I will say that Moses was correct. But I won't tell you to believe it. You will have to do that on your own.

Cute...but no sale. Anyone treating the story of Eden with anything but contempt simply doesn't know how to read.

Frank Apisa wrote:

RexRed wrote:

1Co 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Do you never get tired of quoting that trite, silly nonsense?

Can you even respond in regard to what the scripture says and not what your agenda imposes?

I'm sorry to have taken so long with this. But you know me, just an ignorant fugitive from the meadowlands.

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

That would make all of us believers...

No it wouldn't. We would all know.

This believing crap (guessing but not acknowledging it as a guess) is way, way over-done by you theists.

Sorry Frank. I guess I just know what I believe.

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

Nor would it help if all of us became unbelievers and subscribed to a rigid social contract. Human imperfection would still stand in the way.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You would start to see what I am trying to impart, Neo...if you would just never again use the word "belief" or any of its derivatives.

"Unbeliever" is an absurd word.

I believe you, Frank. I truly do.

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

Intellectuals would appoint themselves leaders and prescribe for the masses a code of conduct which, first and foremost, would ensure the power of the leaders. And, as priests of god or no god they would continue to dominate man to his injury.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Oh, bullshyt. The world would go on just like it is going right now. The superstition of theists does nothing to hold "intellectuals" in check...and probably does more to subjugate the masses than anything else.

Right on, Frank. But that's not what I was saying. Theist intellectuals or non-theist intellectuals: same thing.

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

What we might need as a remedy would be for humans to evolve to a point where each had an internal governor, a sort of humanistic superego preventing conduct that infringes on the rights of others. I hate to use the word 'conscience'.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Well...I think we have a better chance of making that evolutionary move if we could just get rid of all this goddam religion nonsense.

But it would be a good thing to have happen.

Just as an aside, the end of religion is foretold in that fairy tale bible at Revelation chapters 17 and 18.

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

Well, alright, I will call it conscience. But isn't that what humans had in that fairy tale time, in the so-called Garden of Eden?

Frank Apisa wrote:

NO, NO, NO!!!! A thousand times NO.

The idiotic myth of the Garden of Eden is a story about people deprived of the ability to recognize right from wrong or evil from good (by the god of the Bible)...and then punished for screwing up.

And to make matters worse...the silly fable has this idiotic god setting them up for failure...not only by putting them in an unconscionable situtation...but also by including in their midst the arch-tempter of the universe.

I admire your sound reasoning and ability to ignore free will.

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

I hesitate to infer that Moses may have been correct when he wrote that we gave away that perfect conscience in the Edenic rebellion.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Not sure what Moses had to say about the "Edenic rebellion"....but the "Edenic rebellion" is preposterous.

Stunning logical exposition, Frank.

Frank Apisa quoting neologist wrote:

Well, alright, I will say that Moses was correct. But I won't tell you to believe it. You will have to do that on your own.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Cute...but no sale. Anyone treating the story of Eden with anything but contempt simply doesn't know how to read.

Thank you again, Frank, for condescending to speak to me, a simple moron.