Okay...let's see...where was I...

If I occasionally mistake one of you for the other...I ask you to forgive me.

You both tend to use lots of words to say damn near nothing of value...and you both tend to rationalize items shown to be wrong.

You are different...but so very much alike. It is an easy mistake to make.

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No matter who said it, however, the Bible specifically tells us that its god hardened the heart of Pharaoh....that the god made him obdurate....that the god made him refuse to comply.

But I know....

...you folks really don't care what it says. You care about how you can rationalize it.

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neologist wrote:

Yeah, Frank. There's a big difference between me and real life. BIG.

I don't have cool avatars, for one thing.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

No matter who said it, however, the Bible specifically tells us that its god hardened the heart of Pharaoh....that the god made him obdurate....that the god made him refuse to comply.

But I know....

...you folks really don't care what it says. You care about how you can rationalize it.

Wah, why did that mean old Jehovah have to pick on such a loveable and gentle soul as Pharaoh?

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/crybaby.gif

Sniff!

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/puke1.gif

Excuuuuse me!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

No matter who said it, however, the Bible specifically tells us that its god hardened the heart of Pharaoh....that the god made him obdurate....that the god made him refuse to comply.

But I know....

...you folks really don't care what it says. You care about how you can rationalize it.

I have addressed the passages in question and given a reasonable explanation of them based on language, the way it was used then...... and even now.

But I know....

..... you ignored it because .........well, why did you?

Should I throw out a slam at you? No. I'll let your actions speak for you.

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Would you provide the passages in Exodus where it repeatedly says that Pharaoh "refused" and his "heart was unyielding, real life. Not that I don't believe you, just that I don't want to take the time to read the whole damn book. Thanks

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neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
No matter who said it, however, the Bible specifically tells us that its god hardened the heart of Pharaoh....that the god made him obdurate....that the god made him refuse to comply.

But I know....

...you folks really don't care what it says. You care about how you can rationalize it.
Wah, why did that mean old Jehovah have to pick on such a loveable and gentle soul as Pharaoh?

Sniff!

Yep!

Excuuuuse me!

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real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
No matter who said it, however, the Bible specifically tells us that its god hardened the heart of Pharaoh....that the god made him obdurate....that the god made him refuse to comply.

But I know....

...you folks really don't care what it says. You care about how you can rationalize it.

I have addressed the passages in question and given a reasonable explanation of them based on language, the way it was used then...... and even now.

No you haven't. You have attempted to pretend that the words are not saying what they say.

The words are very, very specific. They tell us that your god made Pharaoh obstinate and obdurate. Your god BRAGS about it. You can almost hear the glee in his voice as he brags to Moses about his plan.

But....when push comes to shove...you fearful people would rather bury your heads in the sand than face the truth....because you think this cartoon god of yours is listening and will punish you if you are naughty, not nice.

Quote:

But I know....

..... you ignored it because .........well, why did you?

I didn't really ignore it....because it was never there. You have given no "explanation" that changes what the passages plainly say.

In any case, I do not intend to "ignore" anything you say. I promise I will respond to everything you write.

Quote:

Should I throw out a slam at you?

I don't know what that means??????

Quote:

No. I'll let your actions speak for you.

I much prefer that I speak for myself.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
No matter who said it, however, the Bible specifically tells us that its god hardened the heart of Pharaoh....that the god made him obdurate....that the god made him refuse to comply.

But I know....

...you folks really don't care what it says. You care about how you can rationalize it.
Wah, why did that mean old Jehovah have to pick on such a loveable and gentle soul as Pharaoh?

Sniff!

Yep!

Excuuuuse me!

Don't cry. It is all a joke.

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Frank; It's not nice to alter quotes without making some notation to that effect. And why did you yep right beneath the barf? Laughing

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neologist wrote:

Frank; It's not nice to alter quotes without making some notation to that effect. And why did you yep right beneath the barf?

I suppose this makes sense to you....but it doesn't to me.

C'mon sniper...do a better job so that people can understand you.

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I am misunderstood because of simplicity.
You are misunderstood because your brain has been overtaken by the miasma of the meadowlands. Take a vacation to Seattle, Frank. The weather is nice here this time of the year. I'll treat you at Starbucks.

No foolin'

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neologist wrote:

I am misunderstood because of simplicity.
You are misunderstood because your brain has been overtaken by the miasma of the meadowlands. Take a vacation to Seattle, Frank. The weather is nice here this time of the year. I'll treat you at Starbucks.

No foolin'

It didn't make sense....and the fact that you are simple is only a tangental factor.

If you want to reword the statement so that a normal person can understand it....get some help doing so....and I will respond.

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You haven't specified which statement ; so I'll go back to my sarcastic remark about Pharaoh:

Pharaoh, according to Moses, was a cruel slave driver who continually piled burdens on the Hebrews. He certainly could not be used as the poster boy for the benevolent protective order of emirs.

You did, in fact, alter my post by inserting the word 'yep'. I was merely commenting on the appropriateness of your chosen location.

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Starbucks offer still on the table

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Now I understand the quote I said didn't make sense.

All you had to do was to let me know...rather than getting cute with your wording.

Here is what happened.

I quoted your post....and then answered what I thought you were saying with a "Yep."

Somehow...the "Yep" got into the text of what you wrote...under one of your silly icons.

In any case, I was mistaken on what I thought you were saying. I thought you had written "That mean ole Jehovah picked on such a loveable and gentle soul as Pharaoh? "

The "yep" was to denote that, indeed, the god of the Bible did pick on Pharaoh.

It was a f**k up on my part from beginning to end. If you had called the error to my attention, though, I could have explained without all the other bullshyt.

As for your comment:

Quote:

Pharaoh, according to Moses, was a cruel slave driver who continually piled burdens on the Hebrews. He certainly could not be used as the poster boy for the benevolent protective order of emirs.

Any reasonable reading of the Bible would elicit a guess that Moses was not only delusional....he was also a liar.

Whatever he had to say about Pharaoh should be taken with a grain of salt.

And for the record....the cruelest being described in Exodus is without any doubt....the god of the Bible.

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OH

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InfraBlue wrote:

Would you provide the passages in Exodus where it repeatedly says that Pharaoh "refused" and his "heart was unyielding, real life. Not that I don't believe you, just that I don't want to take the time to read the whole damn book. Thanks

Hi InfraBlue,

Glad you are hangin' with the discussion. It's kinda interesting, doncha think?

Refuse--------------
# Exodus 8:2
If you refuse to let them go, I will plague your whole country with frogs.

# Exodus 9:2
If you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them back,

# Exodus 10:3
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me.

# Exodus 10:4
If you refuse to let them go, I will bring locusts into your country tomorrow.

# Exodus 11:9
The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you?-so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt."

# Exodus 15:15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'

Unyielding------------
# Exodus 7:14
[ The Plague of Blood ] Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go.

# Exodus 9:7
Pharaoh sent men to investigate and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

Pharaoh hardened his heart-------------
# Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

# Exodus 8:32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

# Exodus 9:34 When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts. 35 So Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not let the Israelites go, just as the LORD had said through Moses.

Is this a tough subject ? Sure it is. Because the Bible also does say in several passages that the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart.

So what are we to understand from this?

The entire context of the Bible shows that God has given man a free will. These passages , interleaved as they are in the first half of Exodus, were obviously not written to contradict each other on purpose.

The writer, penning his work in the Hebrew language, obviously would have known if the sense he was giving to the verbs in each chapter conflicted with what he had written moments earlier.

It makes perfect sense to say that Pharaoh hardened his heart against God. This was Pharaoh's action.

It makes equal sense to say that God had hardened Pharaoh's heart. This was Pharaoh's reaction.

How's that? Well, because we use language of the same sort today.

It is as the example I gave to Frank. A nonbeliever such as he might say "the god of the Bible makes me angry". This indicates Frank's reaction.

It does not indicate pure cause and inevitable effect, as if Frank were helpless to determine whether he would be angry or not.

BTW an easy place to pull up Bible quotations fast, based on keyword is http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/ You can search in a dozen or so versions also. The ones I used here were from NIV.

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But read in context, Exodus 7:3-5 doesn't imply, like the example you are drawing with Frank, that the idea of god, or the thought of god made Pharaoh's heart hard. It specifically states a cause and effect relationship to achieve an end. 7:3"But I will (cause) harden Pharaoh's heart (effect), that I may multiply My signs and marvels in the land of Egypt (end). 4When Pharaoh does not heed you (effect), I will lay my hand upon Egypt and deliver My ranks, My people the Israelites, from the land of Egypt with extraordinary chastisements (end). 5And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand over Egypt and bring out the Israelites from their midst. (end)"

The god is the cause of Pharaoh's hardened heart, the effect through which the god will demonstrate his hand to the Egyptians through extraordinary chastisements, and also through his hand that the Egyptians shall know that he is the LORD.

This demonstrates a cause and effect relationship to achieve an end, rather than mere figurative speech.

Tell me, you say that the entire context of the Bible shows that God has given man a free will, but are there other passages that contradict this, or if you prefer, seemingly contradict this, like in the example from Exodus?

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InfraBlue wrote:

But read in context, Exodus 7:3-5 doesn't imply, like the example you are drawing with Frank, that the idea of god, or the thought of god made Pharaoh's heart hard. It specifically states a cause and effect relationship to achieve an end. 7:3"But I will (cause) harden Pharaoh's heart (effect), that I may multiply My signs and marvels in the land of Egypt (end). 4When Pharaoh does not heed you (effect), I will lay my hand upon Egypt and deliver My ranks, My people the Israelites, from the land of Egypt with extraordinary chastisements (end). 5And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand over Egypt and bring out the Israelites from their midst. (end)"

The god is the cause of Pharaoh's hardened heart, the effect through which the god will demonstrate his hand to the Egyptians through extraordinary chastisements, and also through his hand that the Egyptians shall know that he is the LORD.

This demonstrates a cause and effect relationship to achieve an end, rather than mere figurative speech.

Tell me, you say that the entire context of the Bible shows that God has given man a free will, but are there other passages that contradict this, or if you prefer, seemingly contradict this, like in the example from Exodus?

C'mon Infra,

Does saying , "He makes me sick." demonstrate cause and effect?

No . It describes a reaction I had to something he said or did or......

How about " I will break down their resistance with my proposal" Cause and effect? Only if "they" have no choice in the matter.

It is describing a reaction, chosen by "them" (I hope) to what I will say.

The only difference is God KNEW what Pharaohs reaction would be. He didn't have to guess , or say I hope, or I hope not. He KNEW. So He predicted the outcome.

Again one more time, "George Bush gives liberals fits" . Did GWB omnipotently force his hearers to rage over what he said? No they chose to react in anger because of their choice to disagree with him strongly.

We use language like this ALL THE TIME.

---------------------

BTW different versions punctuate this passage differently. Since there is no punctuation in the original Hebrew, it is a subjective call where to place the commas and periods. It can subtly , and sometimes not so subtly, alter the emphasis intended or seen in the text.

3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

-----------------------------------------

There are some Christian groups that do not believe man has a free will at all. The passages we are looking at are generally used as their strongest evidence to make their case. As you can see, it is pretty weak.

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Okay...let's see...where was I...

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