Okay...let's see...where was I...

neologist wrote:

Salvation was not limited to the Jews. A large mixed company left Egypt with the Israelites.

Where is that written....or where you there?

neologist wrote:

There's more to it, of course.

Ahhhh...and some day you will share it, no doubt.

neologist wrote:

But I've merited enough cursing for today.

You are being way too mdoest. You merit much more!

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

Salvation was not limited to the Jews. A large mixed company left Egypt with the Israelites.

Where is that written....or where you there?

You're just testing me, right? Surely you must have read it several times in Exodus 12:38.

Quote:

You are being way too mdoest. You merit much more!

Why thnak you! mdoesty is one of my redming quilties.

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

Salvation was not limited to the Jews. A large mixed company left Egypt with the Israelites.

Where is that written....or where you there?

You're just testing me, right? Surely you must have read it several times in Exodus 12:38.

That passage refers to the children of Hebrews supposedly fathered by Egyptians.

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

Salvation was not limited to the Jews. A large mixed company left Egypt with the Israelites.

Where is that written....or where you there?

You're just testing me, right? Surely you must have read it several times in Exodus 12:38.

That passage refers to the children of Hebrews supposedly fathered by Egyptians.

Not only. Read a few more verses.

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

Salvation was not limited to the Jews. A large mixed company left Egypt with the Israelites.

Where is that written....or where you there?

You're just testing me, right? Surely you must have read it several times in Exodus 12:38.

That passage refers to the children of Hebrews supposedly fathered by Egyptians.

Not only. Read a few more verses.

Mixed message....because the passages of Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy were obviously written long after they pretend to be.

The passages presuppose much that would not have been in existence during this mythological exodus.

In any case, it is of no importance at all to what I had to say about the story portrayed in Exodus.

[The authenticity and time of writing are other matters.

I've always been somewhat amused by your indignation over events you do not believe ever took place.

Perhaps you revile the mind(s) of the writer(s).

Then again, it's hard to believe someone would have fabricated a history which, from a humanitarian perspective, puts both God and the Israelites in such an unflattering light.

Have you ever read the disgusting text of Exodus, Life?

Do you realize it tells the story of a god who wanted to show Pharaoh how terrifying he could be...so he set up a bunch of tortures to put the people of Egypt through...and then "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that Pharaoh would not relent.

This god actually brags that he will make Pharaoh obdurate...so that no one plague or hardship would work. The god actually brags that he will go on with the torture until the final one...the one the god was saving as its final piece of enjoyment...the senseless, wonton slaughter of untold numbers of firstborn babies and animals.

It is one of the most disgusting, barbaric myths ever created by human minds.

Wake up!

neologist wrote:

[The authenticity and time of writing are other matters.

I've always been somewhat amused by your indignation over events you do not believe ever took place.

Try to use your brain, Neo.

Your sentence is a joke.

You are correct that I do not "believe" they took place.

I also do not "believe" they did not take place.

I don't know whether they did or didn't.

All I can do is guess.

And from the evidence I have....and the intellectual power I am able to bring to bear on it...

...I guess that the Bible is essentially a rather self-serving history of the early Hebrew people interspersed with an almost comical mythology..

real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

This is among the most illogical posts I've ever read on the Internet..................I have suggested some possible alterntives to that shyt you are buying.

Hi Frank,

Your possible alternatives amount to postulating that the Hebrew history and laws contained in the Old Testament were fabricated by a number of oral traditionists over a span from 1500BC (the time of Moses) to the New Testament era.

To take this seriously, you would have to think that the Hebrews who first heard this were gullible enough to accept a bogus history that their parents, grandparents , etc had never known AND also a bogus set of very unusual laws that no previous generation had ever known would have to be accepted as already having historical precedent and binding , in some cases under penalty of death.

Succeeding generations would have had to been similarly gullible to accept the new concoctions of the unfolding Hebrew "history".

To perpetrate this fraud you also need to postulate a succession of writers over the same period of time who each write the Hebrew history so as to paint themselves and their countrymen in a very bad light as we discussed previously. And each generation would have to buy into the new lies about recent events as actual "history".

This is what your possible alternatives amount to, Frank.

You must come up with a better explanation of how the Jews came to accept the Old Testament as both history and Law, than to suppose that someone just made it up and passed it down.

No, Life....and it is possible that the oral tradition goes back way longer than you are supposing.

In any case....to suppose that the mythology that inhabits the Bible could not have been created by humans and has to be the real word of a GOD...is so goddam far-fetched....it boggles the mind to suppose humans still accept such a thing.

EVERY HISTORY is, in effect, self-serving.

The winners write the history.

God certainly did predict Pharaoh's reaction to His decree to free the slaves. But He did not force Pharaoh's reaction to be what it was.

So, you're not actually believing they did not take place. You're just guessing they did not take place.

OK.

I've always been somewhat amused by your indignation over events you guess are essentially part of an almost comical mythology and probably maybe you guess never actually took place.

The winners write the history? Generally that is true. But at the end of the Old Testament, the Hebrews were not the winners.

They had split their kingdom, many of the original 12 tribes are all but lost to history, they no longer had an independent king, but functioned for the final 500 years as vassals under the Medes, then the Greeks; then finally as the Old Testament era draws to a close and the New Testament is being lived they are under the thumb of Rome. Shortly after most of the events of the New Testament, Rome smashes Jerusalem in 70AD.

But as discussed , most of the Old Testament is certainly anything but self serving. The wide open discussion of the Hebrews' kings and prophets faults and failings, as well as those of the people at large, is very unusual for any history that seeks to be self serving. Not just a "martyr story" since they are portrayed as not just beaten on from external foes on a consistent basis, but also sticking themselves in the foot with their own spear (shooting self in the foot not possible at this historical juncture) at nearly every opportunity.

Might be older than supposed? If the dateline is moved back, it just compounds the problem. If this history is fabricated then you have just added more generations of Jews that must be gullible or masochistic enough to embrace this as their "history" and Law when they know it is not, as well as additional chroniclers in those generations who must keep up the charade as they pen "history" that didn't happen, if you're theory is correct.

This conspiracy theory just keeps getting worse.

neologist wrote:

So, you're not actually believing they did not take place. You're just guessing they did not take place.

OK.

I've always been somewhat amused by your indignation over events you guess are essentially part of an almost comical mythology and probably maybe you guess never actually took place.

Yeah, well....I could give a rat's ass about what "amuses" you. But since this comic book shyt has been at the heart of so much of the killing, torture, and mayhem of this world...you ought really seek psychiatric help on that account.

real life wrote:

God certainly did predict Pharaoh's reaction to His decree to free the slaves. But He did not force Pharaoh's reaction to be what it was.

Well that is what you say....but that is not what your Bible says...and that is not what your god says either.

Your Bible...and your god...both say that your god will harden Pharaoh's heart....and will make Pharaoh obdurate.

Read Exodus. There is absolutely no doubt of what it says.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you scared people from pretending differently.

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

So, you're not actually believing they did not take place. You're just guessing they did not take place.

OK.

I've always been somewhat amused by your indignation over events you guess are essentially part of an almost comical mythology and probably maybe you guess never actually took place.

Yeah, well....I could give a rat's ass about what "amuses" you. But since this comic book shyt has been at the heart of so much of the killing, torture, and mayhem of this world...you ought really seek psychiatric help on that account.

Well, we appear to agree on one thing, the guilt of religion.

I can clearly see that, in honesty, men must either give up war, or else they must confess that the words of the redeemer are too lofty for them, and that there is no longer any use in pretending that His teaching can be reduced to practice. I have seen a Christian minister blessing a cannon which had just been founded, and another blessing a warship as it glided from the slips. They, the so-called representatives of Christ, blessed these engines of destruction which cruel man has devised to destroy and tear his fellow-worms. What would we say if we read in holy writ of our Lord having blessed the battering-rams and catapults of the legions? Would we think that it was in agreement with his teaching?

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:

God certainly did predict Pharaoh's reaction to His decree to free the slaves. But He did not force Pharaoh's reaction to be what it was.

Well that is what you say....but that is not what your Bible says...and that is not what your god says either.

Your Bible...and your god...both say that your god will harden Pharaoh's heart....and will make Pharaoh obdurate.

Read Exodus. There is absolutely no doubt of what it says.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you scared people from pretending differently.

Hi Frank,

The Bible is clear from start to finish that Man was given free will and our own experience shows it as well.

We can chose right or wrong.

When God commands us something and we do the opposite, there is no culpability on God's part because He did not force us to do right.

Exodus repeatedly says that Pharaoh "refused" and his "heart was unyielding".

The fact that God knew this ahead of time is of no surprise.

Man choses how his heart is inclined, or not, to God. And the effects of that choice are predictable.

This is what the Bible teaches, in context. It is sometimes easy to pull a few passages out of the entire context and based on their English translation , try to make them say what they were never designed to say.

But looking at the Bible in full context gives a much more accurate understanding.

I will make him obstinate, however, so that he will not let the people go.

Yet I will make Pharaoh so obstinate that, despite the many sisgns and wonders that I will work in the land of Egyypt, he will not listen to you.

real life wrote:

They had split their kingdom, many of the original 12 tribes are all but lost to history, they no longer had an independent king, but functioned for the final 500 years as vassals under the Medes, then the Greeks; then finally as the Old Testament era draws to a close and the New Testament is being lived they are under the thumb of Rome. Shortly after most of the events of the New Testament, Rome smashes Jerusalem in 70AD.

I think you have a lot of your information wrong.

My guess is that you don't have any idea of where the "Old Testament" ends. And since the "New Testament" does not come into play as to whether or not the ancient history is self-serving or not....you are all wet.

real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:

God certainly did predict Pharaoh's reaction to His decree to free the slaves. But He did not force Pharaoh's reaction to be what it was.

Well that is what you say....but that is not what your Bible says...and that is not what your god says either.

Your Bible...and your god...both say that your god will harden Pharaoh's heart....and will make Pharaoh obdurate.

Read Exodus. There is absolutely no doubt of what it says.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you scared people from pretending differently.

Hi Frank,

The Bible is clear from start to finish that Man was given free will and our own experience shows it as well.

We can chose right or wrong.

When God commands us something and we do the opposite, there is no culpability on God's part because He did not force us to do right.

Exodus repeatedly says that Pharaoh "refused" and his "heart was unyielding".

The fact that God knew this ahead of time is of no surprise.

Man choses how his heart is inclined, or not, to God. And the effects of that choice are predictable.

This is what the Bible teaches, in context. It is sometimes easy to pull a few passages out of the entire context and based on their English translation , try to make them say what they were never designed to say.

But looking at the Bible in full context gives a much more accurate understanding.

Talk about pulling a few passages out of context!!!!!

Listen, Neo....your god says:

At Exodus Chapter 4:21...

Quote:

I will make him obstinate, however, so that he will not let the people go.

At Chapter 7:3...your god says:

]

Quote:

Yet I will make Pharaoh so obstinate that, despite the many sisgns and wonders that I will work in the land of Egyypt, he will not listen to you.

All this done so that the god can show Pharaoh just how ferocious he could be.

You are the one not looking...and intelligently interpreting, Neo. Not I.