Okay...let's see...where was I...

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Do I think the Egyptians would dare to record the defeat of their god, the Pharaoh?

Yeah.

Are you suggesting they never did?

If they had, that would be corroboration, right?

Just asking.

Obviously.

But you should also be thinking!

1) It may never have happened....so there may be nothing to record.

2) I was asking if they ever recorded any defeats by their god, the Pharaoh.


Try to keep up.

I know it is hard for you.

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Do I think the Egyptians would dare to record the defeat of their god, the Pharaoh?

Yeah.

Are you suggesting they never did?

If they had, that would be corroboration, right?

Just asking.

Obviously.

But you should also be thinking!

1) It may never have happened....so there may be nothing to record.

2) I was asking if they ever recorded any defeats by their god, the Pharaoh.


Try to keep up.

I know it is hard for you.

1. True, with huge emphasis on the word 'may'. But, I don't think so; and that wasn't my point.

2. I could have sworn you asked if they ever recorded defeats of their god, the pharaoh, not by their god. Why yes, your quote does say that.

This is among the most illogical posts I've ever read on the Internet..................I have suggested some possible alterntives to that shyt you are buying.

The supposed defeat of Pharaoh at the Red Sea was not recorded by any Egyptian historians, obviously. If it had been, it would corroborate the record in Exodus, right?

That was all I was trying to claim.

It doesn't prove or disprove anything other than clarify a point.

I think

Frank Apisa wrote:

This is among the most illogical posts I've ever read on the Internet..................I have suggested some possible alterntives to that shyt you are buying.

Hi Frank,

Your possible alternatives amount to postulating that the Hebrew history and laws contained in the Old Testament were fabricated by a number of oral traditionists over a span from 1500BC (the time of Moses) to the New Testament era.

To take this seriously, you would have to think that the Hebrews who first heard this were gullible enough to accept a bogus history that their parents, grandparents , etc had never known AND also a bogus set of very unusual laws that no previous generation had ever known would have to be accepted as already having historical precedent and binding , in some cases under penalty of death.

Succeeding generations would have had to been similarly gullible to accept the new concoctions of the unfolding Hebrew "history".

To perpetrate this fraud you also need to postulate a succession of writers over the same period of time who each write the Hebrew history so as to paint themselves and their countrymen in a very bad light as we discussed previously. And each generation would have to buy into the new lies about recent events as actual "history".

This is what your possible alternatives amount to, Frank.

You must come up with a better explanation of how the Jews came to accept the Old Testament as both history and Law, than to suppose that someone just made it up and passed it down.

But you were suggesting that it was not recorded because the Egyptians would not dare to do so...what with the Pharaoh being their god.

One would think, though, that the death of every firstborn child and animal in the entire of Egypt would have gotten some mention somewhere.

Frank Apisa wrote:

But you were suggesting that it was not recorded because the Egyptians would not dare to do so...what with the Pharaoh being their god.

No. Much less profound than that. I was saying that if it had been recorded by Egyptian historians, that would have been corroboration. (A point so minor, I am sorry now to have proffered it, though it seemed to make sense at the time.)

Frank Apisa wrote:

One would think, though, that the death of every firstborn child and animal in the entire of Egypt would have gotten some mention somewhere.

This would fit into the same category as the other nine plagues and the Red Sea Debacle. If we can't come to terms on Pharaoh's defeat, it wouldn't make sense to argue these, would it?

It is of some noteworthiness that the Israelites were so impressed with their deliverance from Egypt, they celebrated the Passover on the same day every year and Jesus was executed on the Passover, a coincidence not fully appreciated at the time.

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

But you were suggesting that it was not recorded because the Egyptians would not dare to do so...what with the Pharaoh being their god.

No. Much less profound than that. I was saying that if it had been recorded by Egyptian historians, that would have been corroboration. (A point so minor, I am sorry now to have proffered it, though it seemed to make sense at the time.)

Frank Apisa wrote:

One would think, though, that the death of every firstborn child and animal in the entire of Egypt would have gotten some mention somewhere.

This would fit into the same category as the other nine plagues and the Red Sea Debacle. If we can't come to terms on Pharaoh's defeat, it wouldn't make sense to argue these, would it?

It is of some noteworthiness that the Israelites were so impressed with their deliverance from Egypt, they celebrated the Passover on the same day every year and Jesus was executed on the Passover, a coincidence not fully appreciated at the time.

Just another thought in passing:

Jews "celebrate" Passover...actually, the oldest continuously observed religious event in existence....every year as you note here.

But think about this....

...Passover is a specific event from Exodus...

...specifically the passing over of the angel of death during the slaughter of the babies of Egypt.

Supposedly this was done by the god of the Bible to get Pharaoh to release the Hebrews from their captivity.

But this is the same god who, just a few paragraphs earlier in Genesis, had created the Earth, the sun, the other 250 billion suns in our galaxy, the other hundreds of billions of other galaxies that we know about.

One would think that a god able to do that would be able to get Pharaoh to do damn near anything without this barbaric act of wonton murder...wouldn't one!

Well, anyway....Jews today still "celebrate" Passover....which they claim to be a celebration of the end of an ancient captivity...but is actually...SPECIFICALLY...the act of passing over the houses of the Hebrews during this brutal slaughter of Egyptian innocents.

I cannot help but wonder how the Jews of today would feel if the Egyptians had a holiday based on the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Hebrew babies.

Of course....when it comes to religion and the religious....there is no accounting.

What do you think?

You bring up a very interesting point, Frank.

Why celebrate the Passover at all if it never happened?

To take this seriously, you would have to think that the Hebrews who first heard this were gullible enough to accept a bogus history that their parents, grandparents , etc had never known AND also a bogus set of very unusual laws that no previous generation had ever known would have to be accepted as already having historical precedent and binding , in some cases under penalty of death.

Succeeding generations would have had to been similarly gullible to accept the new concoctions of the unfolding Hebrew "history".

real life wrote:

You bring up a very interesting point, Frank.

Why celebrate the Passover at all if it never happened?

For the same reasons you folks "celebrate" Easter?????

real life wrote:

To take this seriously, you would have to think that the Hebrews who first heard this were gullible enough to accept a bogus history that their parents, grandparents , etc had never known AND also a bogus set of very unusual laws that no previous generation had ever known would have to be accepted as already having historical precedent and binding , in some cases under penalty of death.

Succeeding generations would have had to been similarly gullible to accept the new concoctions of the unfolding Hebrew "history".

You seem to think this is so radical...that supposing it is absurd.

But this is what happens in goddam near every early civilization.

Are you prepared to suggest the same thing about Rome, for instance.?

Are you prepared to say that because the Romans supposed their city was founded by twins suckled by wolves...that must have been the way it happened?

Are you prepared to suggest that because they were sure enough of their history and mythology to build huge buildings in honor of those twins and their gods....

...the wolf suckled twins existed and founded Rome....

...and their pantheon of gods actually existed???????

Wake up!

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:

You bring up a very interesting point, Frank.

Why celebrate the Passover at all if it never happened?

For the same reasons you folks "celebrate" Easter?????

Think about it, Frank.

Suppose that you started "celebrating" a holiday based on the bearded people of New Jersey being spared any deaths when the Great New Jersey Earthquake of 2004 occurred. Multiple thousands of unbearded people died, you tell them, but all of the bearded people were spared. (But there was no Great Earthquake in 2004 in Jersey , right?)

How many people do you think would celebrate this? (Ok so you have a few friends that would as a lark probably.) And 3500 years from now how many of their descendants do you think would still be celebrating it?

To suppose that Passover was just made up out of nothing and continues for 3500 years is quite a stretch.

Every culture has mythological figures that it "honors" in some way, and sometimes even builds monuments, etc to .

Paul Bunyan would be an American example. No American actually believes Paul Bunyan's tall tales, but you will find statues of him, etc in many places.

But to suppose that you could convince American society to adopt hundreds of unusual laws, in fact it's entire legal structure, legally binding and in some cases carrying the death penalty, based on the "experiences" of Paul Bunyan , or based on his supposed sayings, would never happen.

Not only did Hebrew society base their legal system upon the events recorded in the Torah, they adopted religious practices far different from any of the surrounding nations.

What convinced these people to adopt the peculiar Monotheism that they practiced (imperfectly) in stark contrast to neighboring Canaanites, Philistines, Egyptians, etc. ?

real life wrote:

You bring up a very interesting point, Frank.

Why celebrate the Passover at all if it never happened?

For the same reasons you folks "celebrate" Easter?????

[Getting back to the time of the first Passover: Jehovah could certainly have simply blinded the Egyptians and allowed the Jews to walk away as their captors groped in darkness. (Or, if you will, I suppose He could have just said "POOF!")

So you must know from your reading that God orchestrated their release for a purpose, not the least of which was to demonstrate his power over an arrogant pharaoh.

Salvation was not limited to the Jews. A large mixed company left Egypt with the Israelites.

There's more to it, of course.

But I've merited enough cursing for today.

Have you ever read the disgusting text of Exodus, Life?

Do you realize it tells the story of a god who wanted to show Pharaoh how terrifying he could be...so he set up a bunch of tortures to put the people of Egypt through...and then "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that Pharaoh would not relent.

This god actually brags that he will make Pharaoh obdurate...so that no one plague or hardship would work. The god actually brags that he will go on with the torture until the final one...the one the god was saving as its final piece of enjoyment...the senseless, wonton slaughter of untold numbers of firstborn babies and animals.

It is one of the most disgusting, barbaric myths ever created by human minds.

Wake up!